posted on June 19, 2001 11:38:04 AM new
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Notice Date: June 19, 2001
Effective Date: June 30, 2001
On 6/30/01, PayPal will launch Community Participation as an enhancement to our existing Member Information feature. Community Participation will measure how active a member has been within the PayPal community by showing the number of unique Verified PayPal members with whom he has transacted. A member's Community Participation will be reflected by two different numbers; the Seller Number will show how many unique Verified members have paid him, the Buyer Number will relate how many unique Verified members he has paid. This information can be used to help evaluate the trustworthiness of other PayPal members, as members who have transacted with the community over a long period of time are unlikely to have been conducting fraudulent transactions. Learn more about Community Participation.
Community Participation
Community Participation is a new feature developed to help PayPal members better evaluate the person or business with whom they are transacting. The feature measures how active a member has been within the PayPal community by showing the number of unique Verified PayPal members with whom he or she has transacted.
This information is designed to be used in conjunction with a member's account creation date and Verification status to provide information on the member's history in the PayPal system.
Community Participation is an indicator of trustworthiness because members who have completed transactions with many other Verified PayPal members over time are unlikely to have been participating in fraudulent transactions, as such activity would cause a member to be removed from the PayPal community.
PayPal's Community Participation is similar to the feedback and reputation systems used in auctions and other online marketplaces. Community Participation will be measured by two different Numbers: Seller and Buyer.
In General
The Seller Number counts the number of Verified Members who have paid a seller. The Buyer Number counts the number of Verified Members a buyer has paid. Eligible transactions will be counted in the Community Participation Numbers 30 days after their successful completion. This ensures that there were no problems with the transaction, and that the Community Participation Numbers reflect a history of success over a period of time.
Seller Number:
What is the Seller Community Participation Number?
The Seller Number is the number of unique Verified PayPal members who have paid a seller. Together with the account creation date and Verification status, the Seller Number helps buyers evaluate a seller whom they do not know.
Where is it shown?
When a buyer is making a payment, a link to the Member Information Box is provided on the Send Money Confirmation page. This Box gives buyers information about the member they are paying including his account creation date, account type, and account status. The Seller Number will be added to this Information. It will also be shown next to the Shop Name in PayPal Shops listings, e.g. "PayPal Shop" (935). Members will have the option to cap the number when it reaches 1000 (Displayed as 1000+).
Buyer Number:
What is the Buyer Community Participation Number?
The Buyer Number is the number of unique Verified PayPal members whom the buyer has paid. This number helps sellers decide whether they want to accept or deny payments from buyers who did not include a Confirmed Address. (Payments without a Confirmed Address are not protected by PayPal's Seller Protection Policy.)
Where is it shown?
When a seller receives a payment without a Confirmed Address, the seller will be asked to manually accept or deny the payment. (Sellers may change their Payment Receiving Preferences to automatically accept or deny these payments from their Profile.) On the Accept/Deny page, information regarding the buyer will be shown, including verification status, account creation date, and the Buyer Number. When the Buyer Number reaches 1000, it will be displayed as 1000+.
The Community Participation Numbers are designed to assist PayPal members as they evaluate their transactions, while continuing to maintain our strict privacy standards.
The FAQ below may answer other questions you have about the Community Participation Numbers.
Frequently Asked Questions about Community Participation
Why is PayPal showing Community Participation?
How are the Community Participation Numbers calculated?
Will my previous transactions be counted in the Community Participation numbers?
How should I use the Community Participation Numbers?
Can I cap my Community Participation Numbers?
What happens if I'm new to PayPal?
Why is PayPal showing Community Participation?
Community Participation indicates how active a member has been in the PayPal community. The community can use this indicator in conjunction with other information, such as a member's account creation date and verification status, to help evaluate the trustworthiness of the people or businesses with whom they are transacting. Members who have transacted with other PayPal members over time are unlikely to have been participating in fraudulent activity, as such activity would cause a member to be removed from the PayPal community.
How are the Community Participation Numbers calculated?
The Seller Number indicates the number of verified users from whom a member has received payments. The Buyer Number indicates the number of verified users to whom a member has sent payments.
Seller Number Calculation Guidelines:
Buyer must be "unique."
"Unique" means that if a buyer has already contributed to seller's number, that buyer will not be counted again. This prevents a single buyer from artificially raising a seller's number by sending multiple payments.
Buyer must be Verified or become Verified.
If a buyer becomes Verified within 30 days of payment completion, he will be counted. International members with confirmed credit cards, who will have a new status, International - Verified, will also be counted.
Buyer will count 30 days after payment is completed.
To ensure that the transaction went smoothly and that a new buyer has ample time to become Verified, a buyer will count towards a seller's number 30 days after his payment is completed. If a complaint occurs within 30 days, transactions may be suspended from crediting the number until the complaint resolves in the seller's favor.
Payment must be above $5.
Payments under $5 will not count.
Buyer Number Calculation Guidelines:
Seller must be "unique."
"Unique" means that if a seller has already contributed to buyer's number, that seller will not be counted again.
Seller must be Verified or become Verified.
If a seller becomes Verified within 30 days of payment completion, he will be counted. International sellers with confirmed credit cards, who will have a new status, International - Verified, will also be counted.
Sellers count 30 days after the payment to him is completed.
A seller will count towards a buyer's number 30 days after his payment is completed. If a complaint occurs within 30 days, transactions may be suspended from crediting the number until the complaint resolves in the buyer's favor.
Payment must be above $5.
Payments under $5 will not count.
Will my previous transactions be counted in the Community Participation numbers?
Yes. On June 30, the Community Participation numbers will reflect all qualified transactions from the date your account was opened.
How should I use the Community Participation Numbers?
The numbers are another piece of information buyers and sellers alike can use when evaluating those members of the PayPal community with whom they transact.
The Seller Number, available on the Send Money Confirmation page, is designed to help buyers evaluate sellers they are paying. Receiving a high number of successful payments over a long period of time implies that a seller is legitimate, since repeated complaints over fraudulent activity would cause a seller to be removed from the PayPal community.
The Buyer Number, shown when a member manually accepts or denies a payment without a Confirmed Address, is designed to help sellers evaluate the risk of accepting payments that do not include a Confirmed Address and are therefore not covered by our Seller Protection Policy.
Note that Community Participation is simply another indicator buyers and sellers can use in their evaluation with other members. It is not an endorsement or guarantee. When transacting with other members always consider all information available before making or accepting a payment.
Can I cap my Community Participation Numbers?
Yes. The Buyer Number is automatically capped when it reaches 1000. Sellers will have the option to cap their Seller Number through a new preference in their Profile.
What happens if I'm new to PayPal?
For the first six weeks of PayPal membership, the Seller Number is shown as "New." This is because these members have not had the opportunity to build a history within the community of selling to Verified members. The Buyer Number, however, will be shown for all members.
posted on June 19, 2001 01:14:40 PM new
A complete and utter waste of effort. Can you imagine if ebay says "from now on feedback will only be allowed between ebay power sellers?" Why are you limiting this to unique verified accounts? A seller who deals mostly with unverified accounts will have low numbers and look untrustworthy. If you want this to mean anything, you should show:
total payments made
total payments received
total complaints made by customers
total complaints made against sellers
That will give folks a real idea of this person's trustworthiness.
Third party representatives may answer questions about services in a strictly factual and non-promotional manner if asked; however, AuctionWatch may end a discussion if we believe that a third party or any of its representatives initiated or are perpetuating the discussion, are promoting its services, or that ending the discussion is otherwise appropriate.
posted on June 19, 2001 01:31:30 PM new
Total complaints should not be revealed. This would open the door to people backing out of paying for auctions they won with peopel with good feedback then seeing a (potentialy groundless complaint) and deciding NOT to pay. Sticking the seller wiht the product. FOr time sensitive sales, such as ticket sales, this could spell disaster!
posted on June 19, 2001 01:54:54 PM new
Hi loggia,
The moderators, should they see fit, will take action on any post and they will also advise me if they feel something is out of line (and I will comply with their requests).
posted on June 19, 2001 03:09:26 PM newI am bound by our policies on this issue and I can't bear responsibility for: ... 2. The user not understanding the TOU... or reviewing it... ...and that you did not take the time to review the terms of use...
I see. At PayPal, the TOU is the only thing that matters. The responses of your reps do not.
At AuctionWatch, though, you can ignore the TOU and considers only what the reps say to matter.
posted on June 19, 2001 03:16:24 PM new
Hi loggia,
Yes, the tou is what I am going to respond with in all customer cases. The terms of use are the binding item for the user and the company.
I can't deviate from the TOU ( even if my personal feelings on the matter) are different or if the user tries to throw their feelings into it.
The response provided by the rep was correct (it was an acknowledgement that their email was received, but it did not validate the claim or claim that a recovery was going to happen). The user may have interpreted the issue to mean something different than it truly was (as was admitted by the user).
I simply broke the case down into what it was:
a)A Buyer Complaint
b)I then asked:
Did it fit into the guidelines? Did the user file in time? Did the rep provide accurate information
Verified users have identified themselves in our system, which gives us more probability that they are not going to engage in fraudulent activity (due to the identification needed).
posted on June 19, 2001 08:50:10 PM new
Hi yisgood,
A system like this is a great idea, but would also run into some privacy issues for the users. This is the simplest way to provide a guide without infringing on a user's privacy.
The positive thing about the participation numbers? They are automatic and require no additional work on the part of either party (such as many feedback systems, which have several concerns)
total payments made
total payments received
total complaints made by customers
total complaints made against sellers
This is just another tool for a user to judge their risk.A user does have to keep in mind that sending payments to someone is done entirely at their discretion.
posted on June 19, 2001 11:19:33 PM newVerified users have identified themselves in our system, which gives us more probability that they are not going to engage in fraudulent activity (due to the identification needed).
I used PayPal for several months before this "Verified" crap started. You confirmed that the address/email addys I gave *were* mine--in fact, you "verified" me. During all those months people payed me through PayPal & I sent them their items immediately. During all those months I never had a complaint from any of my customers. My PayPal record AND my eBay feedback, without any negatives after more than 2 years, showed me to be an ethical seller who doesn't "engage in fraudulent activity." Period.
Then, all of a sudden, I wasn't "verified" any more simply because I won't give you access to my bank account. Not only that, but PayPal went out of its way to tell my buyers that I was likely to cheat & defraud them! After all of your shenangigans last year I dropped you guys and the posts I see here, not to mention your BBB rating, VERIFY my belief that I was wise to do so.
What you are saying here in this thread is that it doesn't matter how many transaction a person has; doesn't matter that a person has never had or given any problems to a customer or seller; doesn't matter at all what their record shows--if they haven't given you access to their bank account they are obviously just waiting to commit fraud. What a wonderful message to send to users!!!
posted on June 19, 2001 11:53:27 PM new
Well, I have a block on my account that prevents paypal from taking any money from it, ever. Cost me $25, but it's worth it. I've had no problems yet, but who knows...I guess my biggest fear is that they try to take to recover $ for some deadbeat chargeback, but then they see they cant, so they terminate me. Then I cant get back on because of the only 1 account rule.
posted on June 20, 2001 08:22:25 AM new
>>A system like this is a great idea, but would also run into some privacy issues for the users.<<
You said the same thing when we repeatedly asked for the buyer's verified address. A year and thousands of dollars lost to fraudulent transactions later, you finally gave us buyer's address. Why does every auction site have feedback ratings? Isn't this the same "violation of privacy?" I don't see ebay saying "in order to protect our members' privacy, we will only show feedback between two power sellers, as they have been verified by our system."
The only people who would want to hide this info are people with something to hide. Why is PP protecting them?
If privacy is really such a concern, you could give folks the ability to hide these numbers. Of course that would give other paypal users the ability to decide not to deal with folks who have something to hide.
posted on June 20, 2001 10:32:52 AM new
This is a useless policy and potentially detrimental to perfectly honest, trustworthy sellers.
In some categories of merchandise on eBay, many of the buyers are first time auction users ... meaning many of them are first time PayPal users... and most certainly UNverified.
That means some sellers trade with an inordinate number of UNverified PayPal members.
Does this make these sellers less trustworthy?
Absolutely not! But PayPal's little rating system will portray them in this unflattering light.
If Paypal is going to pull this crap on people again in another bid to force people to verify-- the outright require bank account info in order to open a PayPal account.
Simple isn't it? No bank account info -- no Paypal account.
But that would cut PayPal's membership by at least 75%, wouldn't it?
posted on June 20, 2001 12:52:11 PM new
I for one would like to see "payponzi's" accounts drop by 75% or more. I notified them in Feb. this year to stop accepting monies to my account and finally got my customers to use western union, money gram, bank wires and cashiers checks. Guess what? My customers are satisfied, I can give them a better rate and NO charge backs.
THANKS "PAYPONZI"
posted on June 20, 2001 01:06:45 PM new
ed123 and PPD
can they still tap into your bank account if you close you PP account? In otherwords - when you close your PP account does Paypal delete all your info of do they still keep it so they can abuse you later?
posted on June 20, 2001 01:19:36 PM new
Hi timberlake,
Closed accounts can't do transactions, which would require logging in on the account to do a transaction from the bank account. The records are kept on file (as is the case with most institutions conducting transactions).
posted on June 20, 2001 03:08:14 PM new
What happens in this scenario:
A buyer does a chargeback agaisnt me through his CREIDT CARD. Says goods I offered werent what he got, or any sortof of BS reason...bottom line, hes trying to get free goods...I *HAVE* Followed the seller protection policy guidelines...(or maybe I havent...) in each of those cases, what happens if I keep clearing out my paypal account after each payment? Can paypal do either of these: Stop an ACH transfer while its in transit for 6 days, reach into my account, grab the next $X that is sent to me by other customers....
You are released from your charge back liability if you follow the Seller Protection Program.
If you do not, we will seek recovery through charging the credit card on file or through other means (any liability/negative balance on the account is reduced if a payment comes in).
I would recommend reviewing the terms of use relative to charge backs and charge back recovery.
posted on June 20, 2001 03:36:54 PM new
Alright...and what happens if we ship, say, USPS EXPRESS to the persons confirmed address. Do we need to have signature? If the signature reqiurmeent is waived, is it still valid proof? If someone else signs for it, is it still valid proof?
The only item a user is charged for is receiving money (if they are a Premier/Business account). All of the features associated with these accounts are free of charge.
posted on June 20, 2001 07:52:37 PM new
Damon..This new rating service would discourage a higher feedback seller to join paypal at the moment and have to start at 0. I have 556 pos.feedback on ebay and probably over 300 billpoint flawless transactions. Why would i want to start another payment service and start out at the bottom of the pile again? something to ponder.
