posted on February 13, 2001 05:37:34 PM new
YAHOO Sellers provided many hours of labor to a site that used their labor to sell advertising. The sellers would make their money for labor by selling items to bidders.
YAHOO provided additional funds to certain sellers for featuring & listing to encourage these particularly prolific sellers to list more items, thus incurring more time and expense by the sellers.
Now, YAHOO is cancelling many sellers auctions for alledged violations, and in many cases for reasons listed simply as "may have violated the TOS".
Sellers are out of pocket the "pay" they would have realized from selling the items listed in the ads that were created at YAHOO's urging and even from the additional funds provided by YAHOO to sellers.
When YAHOO started charging for listing, they changed the rules unilaterally on work/ads prepared specifically for YAHOO, which in and of itself was unfair and I contend is probably a violation of some Federal/State labor & other laws.
Sellers should have been able to continue to run the ads listed in the "Closed" catagory prepared under the old rules until sold to allow the sellers to profit from their labor.
After all, YAHOO profited from the use of these ads for advertisement purposes and received their share of the bargain.
Recently sellers report that their accounts are being closed, funds provided by YAHOO being eliminated, PayDirect Accounts being closed with information contained inside.
In my opinion, we sellers need to decide exactly what we are going to do about this.
There are Government entities that would be interested in this from:
FTC
BBBOnline
Local Attorney Generals
perhaps even Department of Labor for Labor Violations?
Let's talk - I'm sure we can figure out what to do. Are you interested?
posted on February 13, 2001 05:57:51 PM new
Yahoo kicked my yahoo account off on Sept. 29, 2000 for supposedly violating TOS. They never asked my side of the story. What exactly I did, I rated a seller bad who stole my money. I paid for an item back in august and she claimed to have sent it, but I live in a small town and I would've received the item. I've had people just write my name and just the town and state with no zip and I received mail. Well she was an ebay seller too, and low and behold she listed the item on there. It was a used little girl's outfit, so it's highly unlikely she had 2 exactly same with same size. Yahoo not only kicked me off but they then removed the negative feedback I left on her. They left my auctions going with people bidding on them and I would have no way of rating the buyer. I had the name since Feb. 97.
If you'd like to know the name of this crook, I cannot post it here, but e-mail me at [email protected]
posted on February 13, 2001 06:17:23 PM new
Legally, I don't think you have a leg to stand on, for the most part. The only possible legal violation I see is the idea of Yahoo closing accounts with credits in them.
However, assuming you want to persue this, for the alternatives you listed:
FTC
Definately your best bet.
BBBOnline
Not a bad idea, but probably won't accomplish much either. They really have no ability to do anything about problems, and how many people check the BBB ratings before using Yahoo's services?
Local Attorney Generals
They have no authority to regulate interstate commerce.
Department of Labor for Labor Violations?
Unless you are an employee of Yahoo with an employment contract, there are no labor violations.
In fact, since the auctions were free, I think Yahoo could argue that they are beyond the realm of most regulation. This is exactly what AOL is arguing in order to keep it's IM technology private.
So, my suggestion is: get over it. Unless you have A LOT of credits in an account that was closed, it won't be worth your time.
(By the way, if your concern is that you have spent time on preparing these auctions, I hear that Bidville will automatically handle moving your closed auctions there for you if you email them.)
posted on February 13, 2001 06:26:31 PM new
Roy,
Did they cancel your auctions? I know a few days ago, you were saying how much you liked them, etc...well, I am sorry this happened to you, too. It has been happening way to much. And they do NOT care to whom, they stab. I think they are dying and that will be that. I miss the old days but we all have had to move on. Yahoo is not the same and if we think about it, they have been slowly changing for a while now, we just didn't know what they had in mind. Is there anybody out there now who still believes that Yahoo is the same or better????? (that is a challenge)HA!
posted on February 13, 2001 10:12:30 PM new
We all bring different life experiences to the table in times of trial.
Some of us want to just watch the number of auctions fall and appear to hope YAHOO breathes its last Hoo. Others have been harmed and decide to walk away for their own sanity and could care less about what happens to YAHOO.
It is the third group that I am speaking to. Those folks who believe that many can do what one cannot, ask and you might receive and don't and you won't, who hope that by taking some action(s) that not only will they be made whole, but that perhaps YAHOO can be saved from itself.
It is my contention that YAHOO is no different than a construction contractor on a large building who "subs" his work out to laborers and gives them a "Contract", and they come in under minimum wage because he changes the requirements requiring them to work longer and harder for their money than the law allows. Unfortunately, we are the laborers.
It is my honest belief that if we believe that our "rights" as citizens of the USA have been violated, or if we care at all about YAHOO as an auction house that can be saved, that we consider the options open to us.
If folks are interested in pursuing those avenues mentioned (FTC, BBBOnline, Local Attorney General, Dept of Labor & Publicity (new), that filing with the agencies listed and publicity that will be generated by such filings, may cause YAHOO to look inward at their tactics and create a better environment for future sellers. In addition, sellers harmed just might be made whole.
I have carefully read the postings on this board, and understand that a lot of folks have been grieviously harmed and are hurting.
Each individual will decide the path they follow, but they need to understand that there are OPTIONS open.
I'm confused. I know Yahoo didn't give you a reason for closing the auctions, but you don't seem bewildered, just annoyed. That suggests to me that you probably know the reason.
Why do you think Yahoo was offended by your auctions?
posted on February 14, 2001 06:45:33 AM new
stockticker
I believe what Roy is saying is that many of these "surprise" closings are without warning, and are in any reference highly unfair.
I totally understand, I've had it happen twice. Once about a month ago, which included my PayDirect account, and all my free credits etc.
I talked to Yahoo and they told me to open another account which I did, posted 5 auctions, and in 2 days had all of them shut down for TOS, again no warning, just sap gone, along with my new ID. These pieces ranged from high end 18th century antiques, to oil lamps; just the “quality” Yahoo said it wanted.
As I said in another thread, "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." I played the fool, and tried a 2nd time and really got stabbed since the 5 auctions had been paid for, and unlike eBay when they close an auction (eBay returns the funds) Yahoo didn't. Again it was for TOS, yes I know what for, but were I new, I wouldn't, as there is no explanation in their message except possible TOS violations. On my second ID posting of 5 I had a single sentence link to my web site, which I saw most were still doing, and which I have on all my auctions posted on eBay, and all the smaller auctions.
I've learned my lesson - I don't know what Yahoo was trying to teach me, but they taught me never to post on their site and never to trust them again.
I personally there is anything legal can be done since they have so many loop holes in their TOS…..but personally what they did certainly ran off a good seller, guess they prefer the porn sellers they have all over the site.
Mad, no, just PO'd with myself that I trusted them a second time.....my big mistake.
I did learn something else...and that is I will never use a pay system that is connected with an auction.
Actually, I believe if one were going after Yahoo, the closing of payment accounts via PayDirect would be the area they are most open and libel for suite in.
posted on February 14, 2001 07:02:50 AM new
Could it be that I can/am still selling on YAHOO, but believe that injured sellers have something to offer that will eventually help all sellers on YAHOO?
Could it be that I fear that someday YAHOO will end my auctions with no reason?
Could it be that there are a lot of folks on this sellers board who speak from the heart and are looking for options other than just watching the YAHOO numbers fall, listening to folks analyze & fault each other or walking away from their YAHOO experience?
My life experiences are such that I believe that sellers who are hurting need options, and those folks who take positive defensive actions to make themselves whole are truly those who make it better for everyone - including the Company.
Sometimes exercising rights to file in "protective" forums like FTC, BBBOnline, DOL, etc., that many others have died to ensure are there for you, is actually harder for some than just walking away.
It's your choice to analyze - it is your choice to walk away - it is your choice to try to make things better for you, others & YAHOO...
posted on February 14, 2001 08:20:59 AM new
Yahoo indicated in its statements to the French courts that certain prohibitions it was being asked to enact probably violated the Constitutional rights of its sellers. Another course to pursue...
posted on February 14, 2001 11:15:25 AM new
Royrogers: Your response to my question seems deliberately vague but you seem to be implying that you were promoting other auction sites in your Yahoo auctions? If so, then I don't blame Yahoo from pulling your auctions. I don't think you have a legal leg to stand on - it's absurd to expect Yahoo to allow you to advertise a competitor.
posted on February 14, 2001 11:58:29 AM new
I've had auctions closed on Ebay and have had a couple of warnings due to some small violations. I was always provide with a reason (not just "a TOS violation" ). That says practically nothing.
The first time it was for links to Yahoo. My fault.
The warings were for using the wrong banners for payment services. I was guilty of not keeping up with the changes in their TOS.
At least I know exactly what the problem was and promptly fixed it.
The Yahoo auction team expects you to read their collective [small] minds and somehow devine the reason your auctions were closed. This is bogus and must stop. A simple warning for a first time violation and having a way to fix your listings would be sufficient.
Don't you just love the "wonderful" new changes happening at Yahoo?
[ edited by outoftheblue on Feb 14, 2001 11:59 AM ]
posted on February 14, 2001 01:09:08 PM new
Roy,
I guess I am having trouble with your post. On February 9, this is what you posted. Quite frankly, it was a bit unnerving to then have you start this topic. What is it that you really think we (users on Yahoo) can do about this? I say move on to other pastures and let this one rot! Here is your message:
[b]posted on January 27, 2001 08:40:38 AM
I have enjoyed better sales on YAHOO with higher % of folks who pay for the past couple of weeks than ever!
Even my newly listed items are selling 1st time around - without waiting forever.
I am still buying thru YAHOO and appreciate the sellers who continue to list my collectible items.
I find that there are new listings in my favorite catagories almost every day - or maybe I am able to find interesting new items because there are fewer listings.
I know there are lots of folks very unhappy with YAHOO and I have carefully read each posting. What I am looking for here are Positive postings.
Is anyone else still happily YAHOOing along like me and plan to stay with YAHOO?[/b]
posted on February 14, 2001 02:54:07 PM new
Like you, I read all of the posts on this board.
Unless seller's horror stories are untrue, the remaining sellers are simply waiting for slaughter.
Personally, I hate living this way.
Tomorrow, I may no longer be able to sell on YAHOO for reasons that I may or may not understand.
In my experience, simply the existence of this thread urging Seller Organization and actions by disenfranchised sellers to be made whole will help the remaining sellers. Unless everyone responds that nothing can be done - then YAHOO wins again!
While I sincerely believe this thread will help those selling, there are those who can and should be made whole. Sometimes completing a simple form, in this case, to the FTC, BBBOnline & other places will cause YAHOO to have to address each action they took and explain it to a Federal or other agency.
Often complaints are settled by companies to resolve these filings to avoid lengthy investigative processes. Those who file may get justice - those who don't won't.
That choice is up to each seller - support your brothers & sisters in this time of trial - or analyze and find fault.
posted on February 14, 2001 05:13:53 PM new
Before you can activate a Yahoo ID you have to click you agree to TOS. Of course this is to protect themselves against lawsuits. I'm no lawyer but I don't see any recourse available.
Terms of Service
clause #13 Termination of your account
"You agree that Yahoo, in its sole discretion, may terminate your password, account (or any part thereof) or use of the Service, and remove and discard any Content within the Service, for any reason, including, without limitation, for lack of use or if Yahoo believes that you have violated or acted inconsistently with the letter or spirit of the TOS. Yahoo may also in its sole discretion and at any time discontinue providing the Service, or any part thereof, with or without notice. You agree that any termination of your access to the Service under any provision of this TOS may be effected without prior notice, and acknowledge and agree that Yahoo may immediately deactivate or delete your account and all related information and files in your account and/or bar any further access to such files or the Service. Further, you agree that Yahoo shall not be liable to you or any third-party for any termination of your access to the Service.
That's the TOS for terminating accounts, seperately they have these for canceling actual auctions:
Yahoo expressly reserves the right to, but has no duty to, refuse, reject or remove any listing in Yahoo's sole discretion.
You acknowledge and agree that Yahoo has the right to immediately modify, suspend or terminate any listings or your account and refuse current or future use of any Yahoo service.
You acknowledge that you will not be entitled to a refund if you do not receive any bids on your listing, if you delete your listing for any reason, or if your listing is unsuccessful, canceled or terminated.
The submit item page says:
"By Clicking "Continue" below, you acknowledge that you have read the Yahoo! Auctions Guidelines and Yahoo Auctions Additional Terms and agree to be bound by their terms. If you do not agree to be bound to their terms, click "Cancel" below."
Nowhere do I see that they have to state a specific reason for terminating an auction or ID. They have everything worded that they don't have to. Their "sole discretion" clauses are not unlike everyone elses:
AW
"AuctionWatch.com may refuse our services to anyone at any time, in our sole discretion. AuctionWatch.com reserves the right to discontinue, temporarily or permanently, any or all of our services to anyone at any time, with or without notice."
Amazon
"Amazon.com and its affiliates reserve the right to refuse service, terminate accounts, remove or edit content, or cancel orders in their sole discretion."
Paypal
"PayPal, in its sole discretion, reserves the right to terminate this Agreement, access to its website, or access to Service without notice for any reason and at any time."
eBay
"We may immediately issue a warning, temporarily suspend, indefinitely suspend or terminate your membership and refuse to provide our services to you."
Virtually every website has these statements and you can't get a user ID anywhere without clicking your agreement to them. It appears any site can cancel your account anytime without notice for any or no reason. In a dispute that's their defense, what's yours?
posted on February 14, 2001 06:30:04 PM new
Kasmoon:
Like you, I am aware of the Terms of the TOS. My position on this matter is that perhaps folks should let the Federal Trade Commission & other regulatory agencies decide the fairness of the TOS and HOW IT IS APPLIED to sellers.
You and I can talk all day about the TOS, rules & regulations of FTC, BBBOnline, Local Attorney Generals rules, Dept of Labor Rules & whether publicity about what is happening is good or bad for sellers.
What I am suggesting (based on years of experience in matters such as this), is that a grieved party completes a simple form (for each agency) - usually on-line, and let the various agencies investigate and decide if anything violates their rules.
I am not encouraging frivilious complaints and grievances, but suggesting that those folks who believe their rights have been violated complete a form to let a 3rd Party decide whether what was done was right.
You may lose a few minutes in completing the form - You might gain your seller's status & payment for auctions lost, PayDirect loss, even pain & suffering.
I am not proposing that each person hire a lawyer to file in court, but that injured sellers file thru administrative procedures with Federal/State agencies. If an Agency Federal or State determines that the Federal/State Laws were violated, or that YAHOO profited unfairly from Seller's labor, or for whatever reason they decide, a settlement can be made for those who file.
More positive responses to this thread would be links provided to the agencies, guidance on completing the forms (by those with experience) or recommendations on ways for sellers to provide positive support to each other.
posted on February 15, 2001 07:31:29 AM newTHE DIFFERENCE IN AN EBAY SUSPENSION & A YAHOO CANCELLATION
I agree with the comparison statement regarding eBay. In 6 years on eBay I received one suspension, and was told what it was far, and the suspension was NOT a cancellation of either my ID or my years of feedback. It lasted 11 days, and everyone was back in business. In fact eBay actually called me to discuss the problem. I knew what the suspension was for, and was told immediately how to correct it. I received a suspension, but was able to return to sell again, retained my ID and feedback, needless to say they didn’t touch my BillPoint Account. Ebay still has a power seller in me, and both of us are happy.
When the same thing happened on Yahoo, it came out of the blue with no recourse and not only effected my ID, my feedback BUT my PayDirect account and all of my free credits! I called and the only response I got was to open a new account. I opened a new account only to have the same thing happen again. After a serious review for the offense the second time was a link to my web site.
When this occurred on eBay, all my fees were returned - not so on Yahoo.
BUT, that is only my guess since there was no explanation except TOS offense.
This is a foolish business practice and Yahoo is actually running off their good sellers. I certainly am not going to risk dealing with them again.
posted on February 15, 2001 07:51:34 AM new
Irene:
I have about decided that you work for YAHOO. Otherwise, why do you want me to publish my YAHOO name? Either you are incredibly dumb or you think I am. That is how folks lose their YAHOO Accounts.
I may like to sell on YAHOO, but I am not a YAHOO.
My work life experience as an Employee Representative who has filed with many federal agencies thru administrative procedures may even exceed your age.
I know that when a person files a complaint, many things may happen.
1. They get into the system the first time (hopefully), they get a sympathic agency (investigator, supervisor, branch chief, division director or legal advisor), and they are made whole just based on filing a single form that clearly states what happened to them.
2. They do not get into the system the first time and they have to refile, they do not get a sympathic agency (or anyone who works there), and they are summarily dismissed.
When #2 happens, the person is able to refile or to appeal an adverse decision generally and sometimes wins at this level by sympathic official.
Such a simple thing.
That is all I was offering - my life's work to those who may need it.
I have nothing more, so I will go back to work selling, and hoping I will not be joining the disenfranchised sellers soon...
posted on February 15, 2001 09:11:23 AM new
One more brief comment on why I choose or believe I am able to recommend possible action or options to disenfranchised sellers who believe they were terminated unfairly.
I worked in Federal Agencies in positions in the foodchain I listed in my comment above. I am now retired.
Complaints do not turn on black and white issues, but on gray areas that are discerned by the investigator/supervisor/director/legal advisor/agency policy at that time.
Most cases are served on the offender (in this case it would be YAHOO), and settlement is discussed (sometimes only between Agency & Offender-Complaintant does not even know this is happening) to resolve allegations in the complaint. Sometimes the complainant is part of the discussion. This is your first chance to be made whole.
If settlement does not resolve issue and case goes foward, I have found that good cases that should win sometimes don't, bad cases that should not have a chance in the world of winning do. It all rests on the folks who are assigned the complaint and their leanings and life experiences.
As a Federal employee, I have handled complaints from many walks of life, many who would equate to similar positions as sellers on YAHOO.
Employees are not the only folks who get relief from federal/state & other agencies.
Now, I will leave you to make some important decisions.
[ edited by royrogers on Feb 15, 2001 09:19 AM ]
