posted on March 17, 2001 10:32:28 AM new
I have visited these message boards on many occasions, only to find the same old thing! People complaining about the unfair
treatment of online auction's, but not doing anything to solve the problem. I have also noticed that when individuals do offer
possible solutions - i.e. User Owned Auction Sites, or Co-oP Auction Sites, most people just allow the thread to fade and go
away.
I wonder if you all realize that if all the sellers that want things to change. got together, they could conceivably create their own
auction site, and MAKE THE RULES THEMSELVES. The could also alter the TOS's to aid the sellers verses making money
for the auction site.
Currently I know of two places where you can go and voice your ideas for a new Seller controlled auction site
Unfortunately I can not post the links to these sites because of more TOS's that fear loss of profit -- JC [email protected]
They are not places that require you to do anything other than come up with ideas that would improve the way sellers are
treated, and stay in contact in case a solution become viable. At some point, if enough sellers do get together, we could
probably create an auction site, the not only would compete with the big boys, but also draw their sellers to our site, because it
is a site for the sellers not the owner of the auction.
As all of you know, it is the people that use the sites, that make the sites what they are -- I is also the numbers of members, the
increase the traffic to the sites. We can, if we would, created a site, and have it built our way, IF WE GET ENOUGH
PEOPLE WILLING TO TRADE IDEAS.
JC
[ edited by landofthings on Mar 17, 2001 10:53 AM ]
[ edited by landofthings on Mar 17, 2001 10:57 AM ]
posted on March 17, 2001 10:41:15 AM new
landofthings,
You have listed 2 URL's with message boards which is against the CG's. Please edit your message. If not edited in a timely fashion, I will have to delete your post.
posted on March 17, 2001 01:18:42 PM new
landofthings >
I have visited these message boards on many occasions, only to find the same old thing! People complaining about the unfair treatment of online auction's, but not doing anything to solve the problem.
Complaints but no action?
Did you miss the fact that Bidville listings have increased from 95,395 on January 16 to 471,508 today, or 394%?
Or were you looking for some other reaction to the transformation of Yahoo!Auctions into Yahoo!AuctionsLITE?
posted on March 17, 2001 04:33:38 PM new
I am aware of the increase in numbers of sales on the other auction sites, but I am also aware that the number of bids received is still VERY LOW.
Competing with the giant eBay will require a lot of sellers in unison moving their auctions, and their customer base to the new
site -- the dribbling of sellers that are moving won't do the job. And any site that is free will never be able to grow big enough to compete with the likes of eBay, or even Yahoo.
posted on March 17, 2001 05:08:19 PM new
"BidVille is rising like the space shuttle"
So is ePier, etc. But. it won't be done for free..
"I understand what you are asking for, and I agree, it would be great IF possible. The likelihood of such cooperation has
already been shown to be a real problem. To many factions wanting their own agenda, and their own way."
Granted! But problems are only things that haven't been solved yet, and I believe that if an organization, with the true interest of it members, is created, these problems can be solved. Good Mediators are needed to help head off problems before they
become major, and although not a perfect society, the US has done a fairly good job, until recent years with making most of the
people happy - and I believe that if we do create an organization that is ruled by the members and not the elected members, we
could make it work. Would it be perfect - Probably not - but, could we please most of the people most of the time - YES
What kinds of things would you like a new site to have, what kind of rules, what kinds of options, etc. That is where we are
now - not defining the minutia yet, and maybe we'll never have to if we create a true community that has its members in mind.
I think we all want the same things, a place to sell our items, without having to be controlled by the profit level of the site. I believe that sellers only want honest sellers on the site. I believe that it is up to us to control the Internet, not the corporations, who are trying to make the Internet like the real world.
posted on March 17, 2001 05:16:45 PM new
I'd prefer to support any of the front running alternative auction sites with my listings, even putting some listings on the lessers.
When you consider the eBay "we can do anything we want because, after all, we're eBay" arrogrance, and Yahoo!Auctions "we're implementing listings fees to improve our site" cluelessness, its encouraging to see some good moves by the alternatives.
And on the side of caution, DIVERSIFY. Support more than one of them.
posted on March 17, 2001 05:43:17 PM new
I don't disagree, and I do the same thing -- BUT that doesn't exclude the possibility and probability that all the alternative sites will
follow eBay's lead - After all most owners of web sites are looking for PROFIT, and how they get it isn't important.
Wouldn't it be nice if you had a say in the running of a site that you use to make money -- wouldn't it be nice to make the rules
and not rely on the whims of others to control your income?
That is what I am talking about - not an instant fix, but a place where WE decide what needs to be done, not some corporate
head hunter whose only concern is PROFIT for the company.
posted on March 17, 2001 06:01:38 PM new
landofthings >
After all most owners of web sites are looking for PROFIT, and how they get it isn't important.
Sure, all auction sites want to make a profit, but let them earn that profit by providing sellers with a respectable selling environment.
That is fine, and your opinion is welcome, we just hate to loose the experience you could bring to such a site
dimview
"Sure, all auction sites want to make a profit, but let them earn that profit by providing sellers with a respectable selling
environment."
Oh how I agree with that statement - But are you seeing that happen with any corporate auctions sites out there? Are they
really worried about our interests, or are they just looking for Volume Sellers, that use less system resources, but provide more
profit than the majority of small sellers on the site.
Do you realize that for every large ticket item listed, the auction site stands to make more money, that it does for 100 or more
small auctions listings put on by the majority of sellers. The small sellers generates less money and use more resources than the
large ticket sellers do. We are becoming a problem for the sites that are making big money, we just aren't profitable for them,
and therefore aren't important.
I was in retail sales for over 30 years, and if I had a product that cost me more than it made - I got rid of it. We are not at that
point yet - but it is coming sooner than you might think.
posted on March 17, 2001 10:42:38 PM new
landofthings
Please e-mail me at [email protected] with your other information!
I agree with what you are saying! The small folks are receiving the short end of the stick!
These are the same folks that put sites like E-Bay where they are with the good ole' community spirit of which I was part of, but no longer participate in!
These Internet businesses are counting on folks not wasting their time to recoupe a #0.05 or more listing fee from non paying bidders or the relist fiasco I read about here on AW and E-Bay!
Their number crunchers I am sure have cranked out at least one executives salary form this in a years time!
I used to sell on Prodigy and AOL Bulletin Boards before I found E-Bay or Yahoo auction sites! Was looking when I found them!
To many folks loading up the free sites with lot of the same things that will stagnate on them as they had on Yahoo!
A few sellers using them for what they are "FREE ADVERTISING SITE" instead of an auction site!
Large numbers of listings does not indicate anything unless the items are sold with a very high percentage sell through rate with minimal relists which is normally not the case of the free listing sites!
posted on March 18, 2001 12:33:05 AM new
I wasn't aware that I, as a customer, need to solve the problems. The execs are paid millions to solve the problems. My only obligation is towards myself to exercise my free choice to go elswhere. Right now, elswhere is no mans land. Not a great choice for a "city slicker."
If we wanted the responsibility of running a site, we'd have gotten our own long time ago. I tied up with ebay and Yahoo because everything was in place for me to sell and become profitable right away, my intention is to continue doing so, and a co-op just doesn't sound like the right choice for me.
posted on March 18, 2001 05:43:27 AM new
landofthings>
Oh how I agree with that statement - But are you seeing that happen with any corporate auctions sites out there? Are they really worried about our interests, or are they just looking for Volume Sellers, that use less system resources, but provide more profit than the majority of small sellers on the site.
But there was an element of competition two months ago. Just after Yahoo!Auctions implemented listing fees, eBay chose to raise their fees.
Do you realize that for every large ticket item listed, the auction site stands to make more money, that it does for 100 or more small auctions listings put on by the majority of sellers. The small sellers generates less money and use more resources than the large ticket sellers do. We are becoming a problem for the sites that are making big money, we just aren't profitable for them, and therefore aren't important.
Go to just about any retail store and you'll see a broad range of products along with a broad range of prices; an auction site similarly needs a broad range of products and prices.
And click on the "closed auctions" of just about any buyer and you'll find that they have bid on items at all pricing levels.
That is what makes an auction site a viable auction site.
posted on March 18, 2001 08:24:38 AM new
landofthings - your comment that no "free" site can ever compete with eBay, isn't true - Yahoo was becoming a major ebay competitor till Yahoo committed suicide. I'm not necessarily interested in a free site, just a powerful one.
*************
If you have lived long enough to be aware of other "occupations," that mirror that of an independent auction seller; such as the Independent Trucking Industry, you will find, historically, that organizing the folks is this side of impossible. Occupations which attract the "independent operator," whether in auctions, or trucking, or any other independent sector; these occupations, normally attract very independent, risk taking personalities.
When trying to organize the auction seller, realize that 99.9% of them don't come to these boards, they have no idea about any site which needs support to pressure the large auction sites. THAT is problem number one.
AND, even if they did know, most people have their own agenda, and aren't joiners, and simply feel they know what is best for them, and even if they join such a movement, they actually won't participate much, and will still post on sites which are undermining the seller IF this hypothetical seller believes it is to their benefit.
In our comparison to the independent trucking industry, realize truckers have a much greater ability to get the word out about strikes, boycotts, via their CB radios, and the national news, and to date, only once in the 70's during the oil crisis did the drivers get enough folks together to make any type of strike impact.
All this is to say, it is almost impossible to organize independent people, because most aren’t aware of a move to strike, boycott, etc., and two, they are too independent to comply.
ONLY, when a site does something which is truly unreasonable, such as Yahoo did with listing fees, do you see a major move of sellers. AND remember, no one had to organize these Yahoo Sellers. Anyone with half an understanding of the auction business realized that Yahoo & eBay are not the same, and listing fees on Yahoo, which doesn’t have a fast sell through, quickly becomes more costly than eBay, with less likelihood of selling – so logic dictated a move.
Sellers on eBay have never truly revolted because for them, eBay holds more advantages than disadvantages. All the organizations, and boycotts in the world won’t work till the individual seller decides some change in eBay (or any other site) makes said site totally disadvantageous.
Therefore, even those who do care about the unfair practices of some auction sites, it is basically a waste of time to “join” an organization to attempt to boycott, or make changes when history proves, such movements in this instance don’t work.
Back in the auction stone age, when I started in 1996, I participated endlessly in movements to make changes in auction sites, particularly eBay. I spent days on end working with groups, to no avail, except to upset me and waste time. After a couple of years I realized why such moves don’t work, and abandoned wasting my time in such assemblages.
The Yahoo seller exodus is a good example of what happens when sellers truly get fed up – eBay will see the same thing happen ONLY if and when eBay does something so disadvantageous to the seller, that everyone realizes there is no gain to staying at eBay – THEN and only then will you see a “strike.” – till such a time, all else is for naught.
Regarding assemblages attempting to organize a Co-op site or such, personally I think most sellers realize no group has enough financing, and ability to get media exposure to attract all those who know nothing of their existance, to make any type of empact on the auction industry. Any auction site without major funding & media exposure, such as eBay, etc., won’t begin to hold its own against eBay. Yahoo had such media and name recognition, and that is why is was fast moving up on eBay. Amazon had such also, but they, like Yahoo, made many bad decisions, and self destroyed their site.
All this is to say, it isn’t that sellers don’t want to see changes, but with an understanding of the business, joining an organization to try to make changes is basically superfluous to them.
posted on March 18, 2001 01:50:45 PM new
Ok, beginning with quickdraw29
You say you want to exercise your "FREE CHOICE" to go elsewhere, but you admit - there is no where else to go, thus you
have NO CHOICE! Yes they are still profitable, but I am sure you have noticed that even that is slipping. I have always been a firm believer in planning ahead - looking for alternatives, and when none exist, creating one. Once this site became a reality, which I agree would take a bit of effort on everyone's behalf -- your responsibilities would be voting yes or no to the proposed ideas offered either weekly or monthly - much less effort than you use to read and respond to these threads. I figure because I like my independence also - we would hire people to run the everyday ins and outs of the site - but we would remain in control of the policies, and direction of the site. I hope you change your mind about the possibilities of this site!
Now for dimview
eBay's raising rate would not have been a "intelligent" move to counter Yahoo's implementation of fees - In fact just the opposite would have been what most business would have done to attract Yahoo's customers. But because Yahoo was not, and is not a true competitor to eBay, they simply raised their rates in order to help rid their site of "clutter" in Meg's words.
I don't disagree that there is a wide range of items in most retail outlets - and neither does eBay, that is why they are actively seeking the manufacturers and distributors to come to eBay and sell direct - effectively cutting out the middle man - US - with the exception of antiques, old collectibles, and unique items, which they are also working to make higher priced, instead of the inexpensive $1 - $10 items. I believe that eBay eventually wants all items to begin at $200 or more -- a much better use of the limited space and technology they have opted to stay with. What makes a viable site, is a combination of sellers, and buyers.
As for jwpc I need to take a breath - lol
Not only have I lived long enough to remember the trucker strike, but I also remember my history about the first unions to be formed and what those men and women went through to make it happen. I also realize that less than 1/10 or 1% ever view
these threads - But it is a start, and since I can't contact everyone by my self, I am hoping for others to join in the efforts to
make a dream come true, that could benefit all of us.
I understand that independents are just that, and that they probably wouldn't want to expend a great deal of energy making
something like this happen - but I also believe that many would be willing to answer yes or no to questions, policies, etc.. if
offered on a weekly basis and could be done within a few minutes max. And that is all the great majority of members would
have to do.
You said that the truckers had a better method of spreading the word - the CB radio - Our method of communication is via
email - which EVERYONE on the internet has, not just the majority, but virtually all. And if done via friends and family first,
this idea could blossom into a real force to reckon with.
I have never agreed to or participated in a boycott - they are simply a waste of time, and not at all what this organization is
advocating -- It is advocating getting enough members to begin with to make a mass move all at once, leaving the corporate,
money hungry organizations behind. This would take a vast majority of the members of the auction site - but like other
organizations - it is possible, but it will take time.
You admitted that you willingly worked to change an organization that was owned by someone else, and had no obligation to
do anything you requested - I am sure you worked hard, but found that after eBay had made up its mind to become the
corporate giant it has become, there was nothing you could do. That is why you would be the perfect participant in this
organization, after all you would be part owner and your voice would count as much as anyone else's would. Sometime you
just have to realize that trying to change someone else's site, isn't possible - but changing your own site, is much easier.
You talk about financing to compete - yes that is something that will have to be addressed at some point - But if an organization like the NRA can have ~20 million members, what is to stop us from organizing a group with as many members - then the money to compete become pocket change, instead of having to take out a mortgage on the house.
I wonder if we have all decided to become sheep, and follow only the shepherd that has the money, or are we still independent
enough to do something that could make a difference - we are the Internet - we have the numbers to make a difference, we only
need to find a way to excite others to an idea that would put us in control of our own destinies. And I for one don't believe that is superfluous.
JC
[ edited by landofthings on Mar 18, 2001 02:02 PM ]
posted on March 19, 2001 07:36:02 AM new
Landofthings
I totally agree with JWPC. His/her logic is sound and the analogy to the trucking industry is very good.
Landofthings – you comment “Our method of communication is via
email, which EVERYONE on the internet has,” sounds good, BUT to email every seller on eBay, Yahoo, or any other group you would have to have these e-mail addresses, therefore although everyone has an e-mail address, I believe the point here is unless you have the address you aren’t really in touch with them. Everyone selling on line most likely has a phone too, but without their phone numbers you can call them. Collecting all these addresses and/or phone numbers would be a massive, if not impossible job.
Therefore, the CB, that JWPC referred to, is not only more proficient, but exceeding faster.
Then in response to JWPC’s comment on financing, you respond “You talk about financing to compete - yes that is something that will have to be addressed at some point.” Get real, this is the major issue, without major funding the whole discussion in moot.
There is no comparison to the NRA, since NRA members are emotionally and financially involved in keeping secure a Constitutional Right. There are magazines which are a contact point for those with NRA inclinations, there are gun shows, hunting shows, gun and hunting shops where the word of activity is all passed on. Needless to say the media keeps everyone interested aware of NRA activities. On line sellers have none of this, so there is no comparison.
I understand you feel strongly about the co-op issue, but you must realize, obviously the majority don’t or a strong co-op would have been created before now. I am glad you have all the free time needed to create a co-op but most sellers don’t and I am not sure why a seller would trust a co-op any more than they would an auction company already in existence.
I believe most sellers feel in control of their destinies, I know I do. For those who feel the need of a co-op, I say “go for it, but quit trying to push the idea down the throats of those who aren’t interested.” Realize that many folks are not joiners, that they see no advantage in involving their time and money with a bunch of sellers who simply want to form some type of co-op.
If a co-op were such a sensational idea those interested or desiring to form such wouldn’t have to beat the subject to death, and beat the bushes for members. I would think your time could be used more wisely using the e-mail you tout.
If you are looking for action, as you say, you should put your post on the eBay board, since Yahoo Sellers have taken action on their own, without the aid of a group to direct them!
[ edited by insightwatcher on Mar 19, 2001 07:38 AM ]
posted on March 19, 2001 02:10:59 PM new
For insightwatcher
I am kind of afraid to respond to you because you seem a bit upset, because I am expressing my opinion -- Sorry, but then that
is what these boards are for.
If you have no interest in this idea - fine - that is your opinion and your welcome to it. But I disagree with your opinion and will
continue to use this forum to express that difference. No offense is meant by this disagreement, only a difference of opinion.
First about eMail - yes getting every sellers email address would be hard, but enlisting people, (who do dislike the direction the
current online auction,) to contact their friends and then have their friends contact friends, will eventually get the word out to all
the sellers on all the sites. And that is what I am trying to do - not force anyone to do something they don't want to do, only
enlist some that do.
Financing is moot until such time that there are enough members to share the costs, at a fraction of what it would cost to do it as
in individual -- we could enlist financing from a corporation, but then we would be in the same position we are in now - doing
business for, and spending our profits with the corporations, who are not afraid to show their greed.
As for the NRA comparison - I believe that keeping the Internet free of corporate control is important - maybe you don't, again
that is your opinion. I personally have a great deal of emotional and financial interest in the Internet, and I am sure that many
other people do also - I use it to feed my family, and earn my living. I also realize that as of yet there are few "seller" shows,
sites, etc., to keep the interest of the sellers -- maybe that is why we are trying to begin some! You have to begin somewhere -
at one time there were no gun shows or even an NRA until someone began it.
Maybe your right, the majority of people don't have an interest in a co-op, or maybe they are afraid to take the time to find out
about what exactly a co-op could do, or become! But we are getting a response, and more and more people are beginning to
find out what it is all about - and to help build an organization that could benefit everyone.
Why would you not trust an organization that you have an equal voice in - 1 member 1 vote - and the members control the site,
not the other way around.
Why would you trust a corporate site - after all their interest is in making more profit for their shareholders, the people that
make that money for them is not important - there are always others that can take their place. This has been proven over and
over by the layoffs and closures of factories in this country, in favor of foreign labor which is much cheaper.
I am glad you feel in control of your destiny - as do I. But I also see the possibilities of changing things for the better - and that
is my opinion
I have forced NO ONE to read these threads, I am not making anyone Join anything, as you seem to infer. But I am offering an
idea, that IMO has merit, and offering the opportunity to anyone who might be interested, now or in the future. And like anyone
with an opinion that they believe in, I will continue to defend my opinion, until such time as I am convinced of a better method.
If your not interested, that is fine, but understand I will continue to make an effort to find those who are -
Also please continue to question because that is what a co-op is, people working together to make things better through
discussion, questions, and then action, just like this co-op discussion board does.
JC
PS -- The group doen't direct the users -- the users direct the group! And I do post on eBay as well.
For RebelGuns
Congratulations, and good luck.
[ edited by landofthings on Mar 19, 2001 02:16 PM ]
posted on March 19, 2001 04:17:35 PM new
I could very well choose to list on any one of the free sites and contribute to their growth, however, that doesn't fit into my plan right now. I need sales and growth, and that I find at ebay. What I also want is an alternative to ebay and Yahoo is that alternative, but unfortunately no longer fills a niche in my sales strategy.
There's clearly a need for sellers to have another cheap alternative site, but that subject has been well concluded that you could gather thousands of sellers, and if buyers don't show up we haven't made any progress. So simply creating a co-op is only half the battle. The second half is much more difficult obtaining many buyers. Do you think most sellers are up to that task, and will accept such a risk? I don't think so. I like to bet on sure things and there's nothing "sure" about a co-op.
posted on March 19, 2001 04:42:49 PM new
Since Yahoo started charging fees, I, too, am looking for an alternate site, but have yet to find it and I sure am not getting much results on Bidville, infact, almost zilch results. I really hope the coop flies-- and they definitely have my vote of confidence. I just feel bad that I don't have any expertise to offer them in helping getting it started. I believe the more exposure given toward the idea of a coop the better as sooner or later people will come along that can help get it established.
"I rememberback a long time ago when life was so much easier and Yahoo was free."
posted on March 20, 2001 07:20:32 AM new
quickdraw29
I agree that getting a co-op together is only 1/2 the battle, and like any new venture, there are no guarantees. BUT by allowing the sellers to include links to all their current auctions, no matter where those auction are listed, I believe that alone would encourage bidders to at least visit - and probably check out ALL the sellers auctions, and return next time as well. If we make it easier to find all your auctions, don't you believe they would like that?
I think we all like sure things - but even eBay isn't a sure thing, just the best choice right now. All we are looking for is people who are interested in a different approach - we don't need them to do anything other than voice their support by joining the group - take a few minutes weekly to vote for what they want, and then, if we get enough support - the creation of a new and
viable auction site might be possible.
Rememberback
The only expertise you need is to know what you want the co-op to offer its members, Simply Join the group, by becoming a
member - and take the time to vote on what you want - or make a comment about what you want -- that is all you need to do.
JC
[ edited by landofthings on Mar 20, 2001 07:22 AM ]
posted on March 20, 2001 07:22:59 AM new
Rebel Guns
I'm with you. When Yahoo started charging, I did as many, and tested every small auction site out there. Outside of a couple of the smaller auction sites, which are producing at an acceptable rate, the rest quickly became a waste of time, in so far as sales go. I keep relisting on these sites, which if nothing else, keeps my web site links before the public, but I ate a bowl of crow and went back to eBay where we have been doing wonderfully.
To be honest, we don’t post as much as we did on Yahoo, and therefore we are doing less volume. But, we are selling many more high end items which in the long run makes up for the lower volume and easily pays the eBay fees, and actually is much less work in the long run.
posted on March 20, 2001 08:56:11 AM new
JW ~ Same story here. Only difference is we are now doing weekly only what we achieved once or twice on Yahoo. I'm now posting more than ever - not an easy thing when you don't bulk load.
