posted on April 26, 2001 10:03:31 PM new
I have. Luckily I'd never been hit with a credit card chargeback, but I was near the end when they forbade me from passing on their charges to the buyer for the service which benefits the buyer, not the seller.
I put up with the fees, I put up with ePay not allowing me to state I would pass the fees along in my ads, but today I was hit with a type of chargeback related to Paypal's Buyer Protection Program. The buyer claimed they never got the item and I was made to prove they received it.
This I could not do because my policy has always been to save customers money by not insuring shipments unless they specifically ask for and pay for insurance. And I refuse to waste more money filling out delivery confirmation slips, another cash cow for the Post Office. And I refuse to ship UPS which is about double the Post Office for most items I ship.
The item in question was a video game and it spelled out all the rules in the ad, plus in large red type it said I was out of town and couldn't ship fir several weeks. The buyer went ahead and bid, then demanded immediate shipment. When I pointed out the obvious they got nasty, and wanted their money back. I refused and shipped when I got home, just when I said I would. So they claimed they never got it. The chances of that are about 1 in 1000 in my experiences. So they probably are lying.
My business is based on my honest efforts and my feedback reflects that. thus a certain amount of trust is built into every transaction by my feedback alone. I've saved buyers thousands of dollars by not insuring nickel and dime packages which get lost or damaged much less than 1% of the time.
So I've had it with Paypal. They were great until they became all buyer oriented. Now my buyers can sign up with Pay Direct or go buy a Money Order. Pay Direct is better anyways.
So tonight I cancelled my account after they refused to reconsider the chargeback. It was a long time comming and all I can say is, "I'm glad and I hope you go broke, Paypal, and thanks for all the sign-up bonuses, chumps."
[ edited by zzyzx000 on Apr 26, 2001 10:10 PM ]
posted on April 27, 2001 06:31:19 AM new
I find it strange that MasterCard and Visa do not allow merchants to tack on their X% cost as part of the charge.
Then I hear a commercial from the IRS telling me that I can conveniently pay my taxes with MasterCard and Visa, with only a 2.5% convenience charge tacked on.
posted on April 27, 2001 10:50:59 AM new
Same here. Our city allows you to pay your property taxes with Visa or MasterCard for a 2/5% "convenience fee". I even wrote to them and told them it was against the rules to charge that fee and they said it wasn't.
Maybe we can do it if we change our wording to "convenience fee" ?
posted on April 27, 2001 03:20:20 PM new
Just curious but doesn't Paypal deserve a small profit on its transactions just like we do on ours? And if your packages are indeed nickel and dime packages should you be concerned about a small loss from time to time? There are risks in any business, we have a choice to either take those risks, should we want to be entreprenuers, or not take them and go to a day job. I am; however, sorry you lost money on this experience.
posted on April 27, 2001 04:38:15 PM new
Hi zzyzx000,
Please review the terms of use on charge backs and liability for charge backs, which are a fact of life accepting payments that are funded with a credit card. Our Seller Protection Program can protect you from these, but the details of the program need to be followed in every aspect.
You will find that our terms of use are not different on charge back liability and that we are one of the few, if any other, payment services that offer protection from charge backs.
(Many users include the cost of the delivery confirmation in their shipping as a way of completing the transaction without having to pay for it).
posted on April 28, 2001 06:23:12 PM new
My way is the best way and paypal made it impossible.
If you play ball Paypal's way, you must tyake out insurance and delivery confirmation with every order so figure shipping at $5.00 minimum.
If you do it my way, the buyer pays $1.30 Media Mail shipping for a game or a video tape and assumes the risk that i will package it well and deliver as promissed.
Why does my way work? Because I have 1500 feddback, that's why. The customer knows that i will deliver as promissed and wrap things well. The risk of loss or damage is less than 1% and the items are mostly under $20 so anybody can assume that risk.
What is important here is my feedback rating...otherwise the buyer never knows if they are the unlucky 1% or if they got ripped off. Its getting ripped off that is troubling to anybody.
Paypal's Buyer Protection plan is an alternative to protecting the buyer from getting ripped off. But look at the cost: Every $5 to $20 item now costs and extra $3.70 which prices most right out of the ball park. It also enriches the Post Office for no good reason. I've saved my customers thousands and thousands of $ buy doing it my way. But Paypal says do it my way or the highway. Well it's the highway for me. It has nothing to do with Paypal making money. They have screwed up this company because they are as ignorant and uninformed as YaWho is of their own business, and will ultimately suffer the consequences.
posted on April 30, 2001 02:51:52 PM new
As a seller, I really try and discourage PP because of the fees I must pay and the extra postage (Priority/DC) I must charge on ALL my auctions just in case someone uses PP. I'm not psyic..can't tell ahead of time which of my buyers will pay with PP. I offer many options to my buyers and they are the ones that choose. Not me.
As a buyer, I LOVE the convenience. It is a service I would gladly pay for (perhaps I shouldn't say that too loundly). When I do find a seller who accepts it, I add extra to the payment to cover their cost. I've never been asked to, but I do it anyway. Ironically, I have never had a seller say "thanks" either...
I have noticed over the past several months, more and more sellers NOT accepting it any longer. I can't blame them though.
PayPal definitely strokes the "senders" and not the "receivers" right now.
posted on April 30, 2001 09:33:55 PM new
Just wanted to pop in and say that even with media mail, you can use Delivery confirmation for an additional 50¢. I understand that you are trying to save the buyer money, but I know that some people aren't aware the DC can be used on Parcel Post and Media mail as well as priority.
posted on May 1, 2001 08:26:52 AM new
All that Paypal requires is DC for the seller protection plan, not insurance. DC is only $.40 extra. And don't "waste" your time filling out all the info on the green DC form, just staple the receipt to your copy of the AW invoice (You DO keep a copy, right???)
Just to be safe in case I get mixed up I usually write the buyer's last name on it. I NEVER bother to fill out all the address info, because I agree that would be a huge delay when you have lots of packages. I do this right at the shipping counter to minimize chances for error.
And i have had buyers try to get their money back with Paypal, all with no success as long as I gave Paypal the DC # which verifies delivery to the buyer's verified address. I support Paypal here.
The only problem I have with Paypal is I won't accept international paypal payments, even from "safe" countries like England because there is no international shipping available that offers online tracking, (unless you spend about $75) and the USPS doesn't allow DC on foriegn shipments. So basically if I accept Paypal from another country, I am SOL if the buyer decides to claim he didn't receive the item, or is unhappy with it.
BIDPAY TO THE RESCUE! All of my foreign buyers use it and there are NO CHARGEBACKS, PERIOD! The only service they provide is sending a money order to the seller. Their involvement ends once the seller has his/her money. They refuse to play the mediator game, and I applaud them for it. I'm now giving a 3% discount for using Bidpay so more domestic buyers will try it.
Beware of MoneyZap - unlike Bidpay, they like to play mediator between buyer and seller, and they WILL hold your funds just upon the FILING of a complaint. They did eventually release my funds after a few days, but I won't use them anymore because of it.
Putting delivery confirmation on a package is MORE THAN just the money it costs---it requires standing in line at the post office (at least it does at mine), since the workers are too lazy to scan it in unless you "pay the price" and stand in their line first.
I meter my packages with SimplyPostage, and I REFUSE to stand in line for 15-45 minutes just to put DC on a package. When the customer is offered insurance against package loss during shipping and refuses to pay for it, he's accepting the risk and should have no right to request his money back if it's lost in shipment.
If and when PayPal takes back a payment from my account, that's the day I quit accepting PayPal credit card payments from customers.
posted on May 2, 2001 03:12:18 AM new
I always use Delivery Confirmation and will not ship without it. I charge Only the UPSP charge + the confirmation cost and have had no problems with customers. Buyers know that there will be shipping charges. Just put the charges in the auction and they will either bid or not.
I have had 3 buyers claim not to have gotten their order. When I said that I would have the Post Office start processing the inquiry and suggested tampering or theft by someone since the DC showed it to be delivered, they backed down. Said "oh yes, sorry, someone else at the house took in the package and didn't tell me". We are talking about a week here of complaints- not just a day or two.
I can't image not getting a package I expected, then sending off email after email threating the seller and having no one else in the house know about it. Guess it happens but it sure irritated me. Turned out that all 3 buyers had their packages just as they were supposed to - had them for days, actually - just sitting at their house! That DC was my only proof of shipping.
I will certainly continue to use DC. It's saved me bad feedback at the very least. (And one of those orders contained $60 worth of merchandise.) I will continue to offer Insurance as optional. DC only costs $.40 to the buyer and provides us both protection in my opinion. If you don't like my charges, then don't bid on my stuff. That's my buying policy too.
posted on May 4, 2001 06:09:19 PM new
"DC # which verifies delivery to the buyer's verified address."
Wrong! DC does not prove that it was delivered. I purchased an item and payed to have DC on it. It showed up on the USPS service page as delivered. But, I never rec'd it. I disputed the charge on my Visa card and was debited the charges. Reason......DC is not signature required and not a guarantee, nor proof that it was delivered. It only confirms. Which means nothing! You won't even get your money back if a package w/DC never arrives to your customer. Happened to me. Supposedly never arrived and did NOT show up as confirmed delivered. I did NOT receive my shipping nor confirmation charges back from the USPS after filling for lost package. Response from USPS a month later: "does not guarantee nor insures package. Only a convenience". Ask your postmaster what happens if a package is lost that has DC. SOL
I've been in selling in the mail order business for 15 years. Shipping & Handling (S&H)is actual shipping AND a handling charge (supplies needed for packaging, etc.). So do not just state "shipping" and add your PayPal fees to S&H. Reward your customers and offer to deduct (your handling fees) for payments NOT made by PayPal.
I accept PayPal but do not endorse it. On my home page and auction listings I state after PayDirect and BidPay logos:
"I do accept but do not endorse nor recommend PayPal". It helps me divert payments to my PayDirect and BidPay accounts!
I use to get approx. 60% of my transactions through PayPal; now once or twice a month (less than 1% of transactions).
With BidPay I have noticed that I've been receiving my money orders much faster then last year.
dimview & heygrape........
If you are being charged extra from the IRS and others for fees, report it to Visa International (for visa charges) 1-800-Visa-911 (1-800-847-2911) and fill a complaint. Also you can dispute the convenience charge. It works for me everytime! D*mn government.
FYI: US Govenment OCC (office of control) 1-800-613-6743 9-6:30CST for complaints regarding credit card companies if they give you the run-around.
All we need is proof that it was mailed (the dc) and that it went to the confirmed address. If the post office, or any other organization loses it, that is beyond our control, but you will not be liable for the charge back if you have that proof.
posted on May 4, 2001 06:42:37 PM new
my 1500+ feedback rating should be proof enough.
Paypal is run by morons and essentially have done the same thing as YaFool to the niche of small inexpensive item sellers. They have made their service first unattractive, then intollerable.
I'll survive without YaFool and I'll survive without PayPooh. It's almost funny about PayPooh. They paid out many millions in referrals (thanks very much), then were bought out by X-Com, a punk owned banking company with no banking experience. Since then they have made one expensive policy after another for the sellers, even though all sellers I know also accept money orders....therefore they go to the bank at least weekly...and therefore the convenience of Paypal is almost totally in the buyer's favor.
Economics forces the costs of a transaction to be eventually paid by the buyer...or if it's impossible to pass it on, the buyer must quit. If the cost past on is too high, then the buyer buys elsewhere where the total cost is cheaper. These things work themselves out. In my case they already have. Paypal: Buh- bye.
posted on May 4, 2001 09:13:05 PM new
Xcom seemed so wholesome and paypal so slimey even in the beginning. Do you suppose xcom always wanted to be slimey like paypal or were they just overrun by paypal flimflamers?
8)
dendude
I can't blame them though.