posted on May 11, 2007 07:15:56 PM new
Well, after 9 years of selling on eBay and being a PayPal member since they started (when they were still free) I finally have figured out that PayPal almost always sides with the Buyer.
My scenario went like this...I sold a doll for what I even thought was a very high amount (but as we all know, it takes more than one bidder to drive up the price). Anyway, the buyer received the doll that was marked "Kestner" and figured they paid too much for it. When I listed the doll, I mentioned that I didn't know a thing about it and please use their own discretion or ask questions first. Didn't mark it as old, new or otherwise in my auction. Just took many, many photos and listed it. And because of buyer's remorse I'm sure, the buyer filed a "not as described" claim with PayPal. I suppose I could have just had them return the doll and returned their funds, but I felt that I didn't misrepresent the doll in any way, shape or manner, so I figured I would ride it out to see how it played out. Figured that if I lost the claim, they would just send the doll back and I'd return the money to them after PayPal had made its decision.
Well, I get an email from PayPal today stating the item was a reproduction (I never claimed it wasn't nor did I claim it was antique either) and PayPal told the buyer to DESTROY the doll and they would refund their funds. And now Paypal says I have no recourse but to give money back, no return of doll and I'm out the fees and what I paid for the doll. I paid approx. $150 for it 10 years ago. And they won't even allow me to review their findings without a supeoena to see how they came to this conclusion. I have since found out that these dolls are actually not considered fakes, but are still being made from original doll heads. But to destroy someone's property like that? That seems so wrong...has anyone else dealt with this situation before? Apparently, I have no recourse but to give PayPal their money back and if I don't they will send it to a collection agency. I've never heard of such nonsense. I will NEVER offer PayPal again after this foolishness. I'm sure it will decrease sales, but how can I feel good about dealing with them again after this?
Sorry this is so long, but I really had to rant to my Vendio pals.
posted on May 11, 2007 07:26:57 PM new
Can you call Paypal and talk to a real person?
Paypal now has an elaborate check list when a person files 'item not as described' complaint,an automated response could be triggered.
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Lets all stop whining !
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posted on May 11, 2007 07:38:46 PM new"Well, I get an email from PayPal today stating the item was a reproduction (I never claimed it wasn't nor claimed it was antique either) and PayPal told the buyer to DESTROY the doll and they would refund their funds. And now Paypal says I have no recourse but to give money back, no..."
Cta:
I think this is the problem...
I'm not a lawyer (Ralphie is the one in the FAMILY), but, due to all the problems that feeBay has had over the years with fakes & repros, sellers are legally required to KNOW & DISCLOSE the TRUE nature of the items they sell...
IOW, tis no longer kosher to claim ignorance and claim, essentially saying: "Caveat emptor!"
Sellers may not disclaim knowledge of, or responsibility for, the authenticity or legality of the items offered in their listings.Sellers should take steps to ensure that their items are authentic before listing them on eBay.
**********If a seller cannot verify the authenticity of an item, the seller is not permitted to list it.**********
Violations of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:
Listing cancellation
Limits on account privileges
Account suspension
Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings
Loss of PowerSeller status
Some Examples:
The following statements violate eBay's Authenticity Disclaimer Policy:
"I cannot guarantee the authenticity of this item, so please bid accordingly."
"Vintage Handbag Chanel???"
“Looks like it could be a Louis Vuitton bag”
“I believe this is painted by Degas, but can’t be sure.”
posted on May 11, 2007 07:42:31 PM new
In what State do you reside? Where was the doll shipped to? When were you notified? What does your return policy state? Is the return policy in the item description? Who determined that the doll was a reproduction? Did an independent third party make that determination? Where is the written documentation of the determination of a reproduction.
Without a written determination by an independent third party, someone owes you some money.
[ edited by kozersky on May 11, 2007 07:46 PM ]
[ edited by kozersky on May 11, 2007 07:48 PM ]
posted on May 11, 2007 07:46:56 PM new
hwahwa, I did speak with a real person and have been making calls over the past few weeks to see how things were proceding. The last person I spoke with even said "I can't imagine you're not going to win this one because you never claimed the doll was old" so thought I had a pretty good shot. My biggest gripe is that they told the buyer to destroy it. Unbelieveable!!!
Tom, you're right, I am sure lots of sellers try to claim ignorance, but everyone who read my description agreed with me - even another bidder who wrote to me after the sale thought I represented it honestly - and even the winning bidder said they didn't think I intentionally tried to sell it dishonestly. Even the damn PayPal rep I spoke with last week agreed.
Do you think that if PayPal is not offered in a sale, it hurts your chances of getting bids?
posted on May 11, 2007 07:54:35 PM new
kozersky - I live in Maine, the buyer is in OR. I was notified this morning that they determined the claim. And my return policy states that I do not do returns unless item was grossly misrepresented and that items are sold as is and buyer must use own judgement. PayPal claims that a 3rd party determined the doll is a reproduction but I am apparently not allowed to view this information unless I get a supeoena. So in otherwords, I have to agree with PayPal and lay down like a kicked dog and just take it.
posted on May 11, 2007 08:06:51 PM new
Ditto what Tom & Ralphie said. Repros and Remakes have invaded even the lowly postcard world and I have spotted and even purchased a few of them (both online and off) - chalked it up to experience and never asked for a refund. OTH I list some beautiful cards of 1990's vintage, reproduced from non-postcard items. Besides avoiding terms like vintage, antique - I go out of my way to list the date of production, etc. They still sell, for reasonable, predictable prices. Perhaps the lesson is to not pay $150 for an item you cannot identify. You also may want to offer a satisfaction guarantee - please contact me first policy to avoid PayPal's interference. I can see that Paypal protected the buyer AND sellers of potential items the buyer may want to purchase is the future.
posted on May 11, 2007 08:08:30 PM new
If you don't get anywhere with Paypal, can you contact the police department in the buyer's town to file a complaint of theft or something?? I would fight like hell with Paypal and the buyer to either get the doll back or the money.
mama
posted on May 11, 2007 08:23:30 PM new
Ebay also requires seller to know the material of the item,like we cant say-it looks like ivory,but then I am not an expert in that dept!
or 'could this be real diamond?or emerald?or ruby?'
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Lets all stop whining !
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posted on May 11, 2007 08:35:33 PM new
well,someone is making and selling them-
Kestners
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JD Kestner was known as the king of the dollmakers. The Kestner doll company made dolls and toys from 1805 to 1925, in their German factories. He is best known for his googlies and his character babies. The Kestner Doll Company started out as a toy factory and evolved into a major doll manufactured. The Kestner dolls are known by their mold numbers, with very few of them having names. One well known exception is the Hilda. A much coveted original, she has a wonderfully chubby face and finely painted lashes and brows.
Sowatzka’s have a number of different Kestners available as reproductions, including the precious Hilda.
Three different sizes of Hildas are being offered, including the 16 1/2" for $495, the 19 1/2" for $595, and the 22" for $795. These Hilda’s come with German glass sleep eyes, mohair wigs, and Christening gowns made of 100% cotton fabrics and laces made in Switzerland. Prices may vary depending on type of gown selected.
Other Kestners offered are as follows:
JDK 221 “Googly” Angela, 9 1/2" on a composition body, $155
Kestner XII, 17 1/2" on a leather body with bisque lower arms, $695
Kestner #171, 27" on a composition body, $895
Kestner #164, 22 1/2" on a composition body, $795
Another Kestner that is both adorable and endearing is the Tat Suki. This Oriental Toddler is one of Louise’s favorites, probably because she won the coveted Golden Bell for her reproduction of this Kestner. Tat Suki is dressed in authentic oriental brocade and silk fabrics. He is available with handmade mohair wig and sleep eyes on a composition toddler body for $545.
As with all reproductions made by Sowatzka’s, their Kestners are signed, numbered and dated by the artist, and are dressed in appropriate clothing made only of natural fabrics.
posted on May 11, 2007 09:26:25 PM new
hwahwa, I was trying to compile my own information to give to PayPal (they never asked for anything from me) and I contacted this person (web site you referenced info. from) and sent him photos and this is what he wrote in an email to me:
1. The reproductions are made from original dolls, not the original molds. These mold no longer exist. The molds are made from an original doll head itself.
2. They are considered reproductions. An expert knows it is a reproduction, and can't be fooled. The only time they could be called a fake is if someone is trying to sell the reproduction as an actual antique.
3.Original molds are not being used, as I explained in the first answer.
Thanks again
Gary Sowatzka
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This appears to be a reproduction Googly. The work looks very nice and the doll would be worth a couple hundred dollars depending on the artist that reproduced her.
posted on May 11, 2007 09:41:33 PM new
I can not believe PayPal had the buyer destroy the doll. Sounds like a case for Judge Judy or maybe your local news station?
posted on May 11, 2007 09:44:14 PM new
[b]
Violations of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:[/b]
Destroy the item is a very strong statement. Does eBay list "destroy".
Suppose the item was old, authentic & valuable. eBay is going to take the word of a buyer to determine this & trust them to destroy it because they say it's not any of those things.
Wow, talk about a seller being vunerable. The buyer now has the item & a refund. Do you really think the buyer would chop the doll to pieces. I think not.
A refund should be given only when the seller has the questionable item back in his/her hands.
Both sides deserve to be treated fairly.
I hope the buyer is honest & returns the doll to you.
posted on May 11, 2007 09:49:23 PM new
Here is a copy of the email PayPal sent to me this morning:
PayPal has concluded the investigation of the following claim:
PayPal notified you of a complaint received from a user regarding
merchandise that is claimed to be not authentic. PayPal considers the
claim made to be genuine based on the evidence reviewed. PayPal has
instructed the buyer to destroy the item or send the item to be destroyed.
PayPal will issue a refund from your account, in accordance with PayPal
Protection Policies, once we can confirm that the item was destroyed.
posted on May 12, 2007 02:55:59 AM new
This is unbelievable. I can understand if it was a knock-off purse, but a doll you have owned for 10yrs and is an authorized reproduction.
Definitely not fair. I decided a long time ago, that Paypal did not represent the interests of sellers. I simply am not interested in paying any company money to provide me with a service that doesn't represent my best interests. I feel that if YOU'RE the one paying the fees YOU should get some sort of protection.
Anyhow... you asked if not taking Paypal affects your sales.... Well, I'm sure it does... but I can tell you that I've survived without it. I've been on eBay since 1996, used Paypal for a BRIEF stint when they were free, didn't like it then, and dropped it when they started charging. I take checks and money orders. Still do LOTS of business, even with international customers. You just need to know how to direct them to the right resources for payment (postal money orders in US funds, AuctionChex, etc...). You can always consider setting up your own Credit Card merchant account too. It will probably be less expensive than Paypal, plus... although they still are pretty big on consumer rights, they also have much better protection for the merchant than Paypal does!
Best of luck! I hope you get some sort of positive resolution from this incident.
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posted on May 12, 2007 05:06:25 AM new
Perhaps you should contact the buyer and tell her that you will refund her payment because of the finding but appeal to her senses as a doll collector to NOT destroy the doll and return it to you. Explain that you had the doll 10 years and that it has sentimental if not collectible value to you - promise not to list it on ebay again. You could add any information about why you decided to sell it after 10 years (kids need braces etc) - worth a shot if the case is otherwise hopeless. You could also try appealing with the same logic to PayPal but buyer will probably be more understanding unless bridges have been burned.
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posted on May 12, 2007 06:48:28 AM new
About, oh, a week or so ago I was told quite vehemently in this forum that no one can be an expert on everything. So in their view it's quite okay to buy and sell things you don't know much about or don't care to take the time to research. I pointed out that you're leaving money on the table if you don't know how to price your goods.
And here, unfortunately, we have another negative consequence.
Sorry you had this wakeup call, cta. Or as a friend of mine used to say, "Oh, no! Not another learning experience!" Though it seems the information was available on the Web all the time.
I think that if you had omitted the manufacturer's name from the doll listing, and just given dimensions along with a bunch of pictures, you would have been safe. You would also have been okay if you had listed it as a Kestner reproduction, as other sellers do.
Unfortunately, the following seller (I don't know that this was you) tried to justify their assumption by citing a reference work and then tacked on a disclaimer.
In the latest Blue Book on page 117, they show the mold number 156 at the top of the page as one of the hard to find molds and I am assuming she is a Kestner, since all this is under the Kestner heading. I have many photos below so you should be able to see whatever I might have overlooked. But please do not hesitate to email me, if you have a question, as I am not an expert on these dolls.
fLufF
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[ edited by fluffythewondercat on May 12, 2007 06:51 AM ]
posted on May 12, 2007 07:26:58 AM new
If you said the doll was a Kestner and it wasn't a Kestner but was a reproduction of a Kestner - how is this not misrepresentation? How would you feel, as a buyer, if you paid Kestner prices for a recent reproduction? A disclaimer claiming ignorance is not a blanket to absolve one for any error in listing. Why didn't you refund when you were corrected and had the chance to have the doll returned?
posted on May 12, 2007 08:32:38 AM new
Recently I listed an item at 9.99,I stated it is not original and the material is resin.
Someone emailed me and said he has proxied 5k on the item and if it does come to 5k,he is not going to pay.
I told him to cancel his bid and resubmit another bid with a more realistic proxy.
He said he does not know how to cancel his bid!
So I cancelled it for him and he rebidded ,he won at 70 and he is happy.
I am happy too.
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Lets all stop whining !
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I'm pretty sure PP does NOT have a room full of gnomes that sit around all day inventing new and ingenious tortures to foist upon the unsuspecting seller...
If I had to guess, the PayPal rep ordered the buyer to destroy the doll, probably after consulting quidelines laid down by their Legal Dept
Everybody here bemoans the vast array of repros, immitations, knock-offs, and Chinese ka-ka that has flooded feeBay over the past years...
Maybe feeBay (& PP) has finally decided to get serious?
posted on May 12, 2007 09:38:57 AM new
I take the lesson to be learned here is the buyer has the upper hand and as such the best business approach is to refund the money and not let PayPal get involved when it looks like the end result will be worse than the path of least resistance. At least then you would get your product back and move on. I would be devastated to lose the money and the product. As annoying as buyers can be, even if it was buyer's remorse, it is a lot more trouble in the long run to fight. There is always the possibity that you will lose.
posted on May 12, 2007 01:56:11 PM new
From the item description page-
Up for auction is this beautiful antique child doll with a bisque head and a composition ball jointed body. She has awesome brown eyes and open mouth with teeth. Her head is marked on the back with "Made in Germany" K 1/2 DEP 14 1/2 and under that 156. The lower part of her back says "Excelsior, Germany 5". Her composition body is in wonderful condition...I see just a small spot on one side of her butt where there is a slight bit of lifting. I see no hairlines, her pretty face is perfect as are her fingers. I believe the mohair wig is original. She is wearing a pink silk slip and panties, sweet little appropriate dress, pink jacket trimmed with lace and a matching pink hat. The clothes are not original to her. She also will come with a pair of knitted booties that somehow were overlooked by me when I was taking her photos. In the latest Blue Book on page 117, they show the mold number 156 at the top of the page as one of the hard to find molds and I am assuming she is a Kestner, since all this is under the Kestner heading. I have many photos below so you should be able to see whatever I might have overlooked. But please do not hesitate to email me, if you have a question, as I am not an expert on these dolls. The blocks in a couple of the photos are just props and not for sale.
[ edited by hwahwa on May 12, 2007 03:34 PM ]
posted on May 12, 2007 02:52:51 PM new
I agree with pixiamom, why did you just not have the buyer send it back and refund the money to start with?? Hind sight is always
20-20
posted on May 12, 2007 03:03:56 PM new
thats what he said -
I suppose I could have just had them return the doll and returned their funds, but I felt that I didn't misrepresent the doll in any way, shape or manner, so I figured I would ride it out to see how it played out. Figured that if I lost the claim, they would just send the doll back and I'd return the money to them after PayPal had made its decision.
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Lets all stop whining !
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posted on May 12, 2007 04:22:55 PM new
I'm so glad that I finally got an answer to a question that I've been asking for years. What if you don't take an item back - can paypal still refund the buyer their money so that they keep the item and get the money back. Obviously that is a YES!!
I don't see how paypal could say to destroy the item - I think they could be sued for that one!!
If it was me - I would write the buyer and ask them to return the doll if they still have it - offer return shipping. Maybe they will but you are at their mercy.
posted on May 12, 2007 04:27:34 PM new
Why would the buyer return the doll now?? PayPal doesn't even require proof that they destroyed it. PayPal should at least have the buyer send them the doll so they could destroy it if they are so worried about forgeries, etc.This is a very scary way of resolving a problem.
posted on May 12, 2007 04:35:43 PM new
Oh I just read the paypal email and they say that the will only refund when they receive notice that the doll was destroyed. Never mind!!
