posted on July 6, 2001 08:07:15 PM
It would depend on what happened when they all just up and disapeared. If I saw a big spinning spaceship suck them up then I would be pretty sure that my idea was right all along and they weren't called sheep for nothing. I'd be right happy I wasn't a sheep.
Now, if they just went poof with no space ship at all around I might have to reconsider. Would I still want to go where they'd gone? Depends. I would not want to go where any TV evangelist goes. Benny Hinn? Oh Yeah! I wanna be where he is ! NOT. Sorry, I like to think there must be a place for moderates. Don't think I will end up with the murderers and the rapistists either and I don't fit in with the preachers and such. An eternity of that would be hell to me.
I take that back - it's possible the 1/4 of the world's population could 'disappear' but it will be because of some disease or global warming or something like that. -barbarake
You don't sound very logical when you say 1/4 of the earth's population could disappear due to global warming. How hot does it have to get, and how many polar caps have to melt to kill 1.5 billion people? How quickly must the temperature rise, so that these 1.5 billion people wouldn't move inland? Sounds like you are referring more to natural disaster, than global warming.
"no one has ever given me any convincing arguments that God exists..."-barbarake (again)
Being such a logical person, have you ever found it necessary to actually seek answers for yourself, or do you generally depend on others to give them to you?
"I would have to exhaust every other possibility before I believed that it was the 'Rapture'."-barbarake (...and again)
Again, speaking from such a logical perspective as you do, what is your logical reasoning for choosing the order of possibilities that you eliminate before drawing a conclusion? You say you must exhaust every other reason first, now why is that? Just trying to figure this out from the logical angle that you are using, son, that's all.
posted on July 7, 2001 11:02:30 AM
KatyD: Gottcha. Thanks.
Sulyn: I haven't read the books you mention, but I did key on the idea that 'all the children' were 'missing', I'm assuming that means all children will be taken in the Rapture? Is that an idea just from the book, or is that a general theory? I ask because if it is a general theory then I've got a few questions (which can obviously be ignored if this is just part of the plot from the books you mention):
All children? So, what is the age cut off? 18? 21?
Would it include those two boys from England who abused and killed that little boy? How about the kids who cut the ears off puppies and left them in a bag in the desert (local story, but you get my drift)?
posted on July 7, 2001 11:55:52 AMlotsafuzs-As far as I have been able to discern, the premise that ALL children would be taken is based on the premise of "innocence". I believe most Christian sects believe a child is innocent or unable to truly understand right from wrong or able to be held accountable for their choices before a certain age, or that there is an "age of accountability". For some reason, 12 seems to be a commonly believed age of accountability.
In the original book, only the really young (below 12) children were "taken". There were lots of teens left behind (enough to have their own series of books! It's my understanding they are very popular too!
I also thought it really unique that the authors chose to not have all the Christians automatically taken (had nothing to do with the auctual "doctrine" they practiced. I think it had more to do with how well the "practiced what they preached". There were enough preachers left behind to recognize what was going on!
I have enjoyed the series, but I was wondering why the authors continued to evolve the plots along the lines those "left behind" would refuse to see prophesy being fullfilled even after numerous more events happended (like the one about the UN that the original poster mentioned).
Of course, I have to say that I am biased. I personally do not know anyone who does not have at least some basic belief in God or a Supreme Being or Designed Creation! I am from a small town! Anyway, I was wondering if perhaps my pre-conceived beliefs were what made it difficult for me to "buy" the authors stance that many would still not "see" what was really going on even if someone tried to point it out to them!
That's why I asked the "what would it take" question. I like AW because there is a really broad sampling of different folks, from different places with different views and beliefs!
Anyway, I'll probably buy number 9 when it comes out. At the rate these guys write, they could still be cranking out additions to this series up to the time the "event" happens!
Is this the place we can kick back, relax, and have fun! Share a story, tell a joke, write a poem, make a friend...???
edited for spelling...if I missed some, please overlook them this time.
[ edited by sulyn1950 on Jul 7, 2001 01:52 PM ]
posted on July 7, 2001 03:04:24 PM
I have never heard of an AGE of accountability. I think God knows when you are competent to accept or reject Christ. I have seen kids who were FULLY aware of what salvation means very young. Others quite older who were not due to mental disorder, etc. I know a 14 year old who just commited his life to Christian service...and I DO fully believe that he has a complete understanding and dedication to what this means.
The first book is also a movie. In that movie there is a scene where a black innercity preacher is alone in his church. He is in casual clothes. He paces back and forth swearing at God. Again and again he says, "I KNEW it! I taught it! I preached it! I believed it! BUT I did NOT LIVE IT!" It is a heart wrenching scene and I think the most touching in the movie. EVERY Christian struggles with living it...but every day one must struggle and seek strength from God.
Just because someone is an evangelist, means nothing. God sees in the heart. There is no hierarchy in Biblical Christianity.
"But they (the disciples) kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest. Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all." Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them, "Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me." ~Mark 9
Who will be first in the kingdom of heaven? Billy Graham? Or the little old lady who worked in 2 year old Sunday School for 25 years?
Billy Graham is an exception too, btw, and I think he will honestly be delighted.
posted on July 7, 2001 03:12:24 PM
The heat index is 105 here with 55% humidity. Humidity is SO bad that my flourecent lights are bugging out. Someplace COOLER (rather than warmer) sounds better to me.
T
Sulyn, scripture:
because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery. Rev 18:23
by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; Rev 19:20
And the devil who deceived them Rev. 20:10
"Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but
never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'
Matt 13
posted on July 7, 2001 03:33:26 PMjlpiece You don't sound very logical when you say 1/4 of the earth's population could disappear due to global warming. How hot does it have to get, and how many polar caps have to melt to kill 1.5 billion people? How quickly must the temperature rise, so that these 1.5 billion people wouldn't move inland? Sounds like you are referring more to natural disaster, than global warming.
Actually, I was referring to eventual starvation through lack of food due to unpredictable weather. That's why I put a quote around 'disappear' because obviously (in this case) they wouldn't *poof* disappear but *eventually* disappear.
Being such a logical person, have you ever found it necessary to actually seek answers for yourself, or do you generally depend on others to give them to you?
Why does my saying 'no one has given me' preclude the possibility that I haven't searched for (and not found any) myself? Sounds like you're making (at least in this case) an incorrect inference.
Again, speaking from such a logical perspective as you do, what is your logical reasoning for choosing the order of possibilities that you eliminate before drawing a conclusion? You say you must exhaust every other reason first, now why is that? Just trying to figure this out from the logical angle that you are using, son, that's all.
I chose this order of possibilities (placing a 'Rapture' last) because - obviously - a 'Rapture' is the least *logical* possibility. This is what logical people do - evaluate possibilities starting the with *most* logical and proceed to the *least* logical.
By the way, with a name like 'barbarake', I don't know why you assumed I was a 'son'.
[ edited by barbarake on Jul 7, 2001 05:45 PM ]
posted on July 7, 2001 04:47:19 PM
We mean *poof*. I believe that the antichrist MAY claim to be of alien origin and that those that "aren't productive to globalization" will *poof*. What do you think he will say happened to us?
The trend, as it coincides with other prophecy being fulfilled, is that the ailen theme is being indoctrinated in people through the media and people are becoming more and more receptive to that possibility. It would simply make sense with the events that will occur. BUT, I don't know of course. It is an accpeted thought among those who probe prophecy.
T
Poof:
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Thess 1
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 2 Cor 12
and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the entrance of the north gate Ezek 8:3
Christ return:
"For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day." Luke 17
~~~
Edited out smart remark.
[ edited by jt on Jul 7, 2001 06:33 PM ]
posted on July 7, 2001 05:36:34 PM
Terri, Why do you feel that only Christians would be against globalization? There would be a lot of folks left here that would want nothing to do with globalization. You do not have to be a Southern Baptist or any kind of Christian to be against globalization.I would not be "productive to globalization" and quite frankly I don't know anyone who is.
Why do you feel that those of us who don't feel as you do would follow someone that claimed to be alien? Good grief, I am not a good Christian like you but I am not stupid or gullible either.
edited for punctuation & spelling
[ edited by rawbunzel on Jul 7, 2001 05:39 PM ]
posted on July 7, 2001 06:31:45 PM
I don't know why people will not know Rawbunzel. Very good question. I just know that there will be a deception and many will follow it. I don't know what it will be. The alien thing is just speculation for lack of a better idea.
But in the same vein, people who know God and know Christ can NOT understand why others can't see Him for who He is. He is so evident in my life everywhere. I don't need the logical when I see that God exists. At times I have felt, "Where are you God?" but then undeniable concrete evidence comes at other times.
I don't understand why people often can't see right and wrong, from everyday things to serious crimes. Take Tim McVeigh. He could NOT see what he did was wrong.
There are scriptures in the Bible that talk about "spiritual blindness", even caused by God in certain instances. I need to read these and see what they say.
But back to your question, There will be a huge deception....and the world in general will buy right into it. I don't have a clue what it will be. The antichrist will not appear evil, but charming, promising peace and prosperity for all. He will be popular and rise in power at a remarkable rate. Some will come to know Christ after the rapture and others will not. I don't know why some will and others not. Exactly 144,000 Jews will convert to Christianity. Those who do become Christians during the tribulation will likely be put to death and more specifically beheaded. Others will starve for lack of the mark and ability to buy or sell. It will be very tempting when one's children are starving to give in to promises...just look at the history of Communism.
It isn't just globalization (which is a good point). Christians will be hated for all their beliefs. They already are...
stop evangelizing, abortion is ok, God doesn't exist, homophobes, idiots, etc. etc. Just look at the reception generally given on AW when an conservative Christian view is expressed. (Not to me...look at other conservative Christians.)
Anyway, what WOULD you explain it away if you were told by the media/government/world leaders why Christians vanished? What do you think others would believe? Many Christians will also be deceived, a great "falling away". I sincerely hope that I am not among them.
T
~always getting a winkie in the wrong place.
Here is a VERY easy to understand "signs of the times", how scripture relates to current events and why Christians believe what they do about the age...if anyone is (still) interested.
http://www.lamblion.com/Web02-00.htm
[ edited by jt on Jul 7, 2001 06:59 PM ]
posted on July 7, 2001 07:27:45 PM
So, the god you believe in would have people burn in hell and suffer greatly simply because they believe differenty than you do? Even if they do believe in a higher power and do treat the earth and all its inhabitants with respect? Even if they have never raped or murdered they will be treated te same as those that do? I could not believe in such a cruel god nor could I sing praises to it. I do not belive there is such a cruel being. I believe in a loving being that allows us to think for ourselves,wants us to think for ourselves and would never force suffering on those that believe but believe differently than others.
JMHO
Now, I will ask you this again. What do you think Bushes "New World Order" is if not globalization? Why do you believe that Bush is standing against it when the Bushes are the ones promoting it?I really do not understand this.
posted on July 7, 2001 08:46:37 PM
"The antichrist will not appear evil, but charming, promising peace and prosperity for all. He will be popular and rise in power at a remarkable rate."
This sounds like someone recently elected to a very powerful office. The Christian Right (and Wrong) supported him over his opponent. I can't think of his name. Can anyone help me?
posted on July 7, 2001 08:55:05 PM
Sadie ~ When I read that line I turned to my husband and read it to him .I asked him to tell me who it sounded like it could be. GMTA
posted on July 7, 2001 09:48:30 PM
How do you reconcile prophecy, events pre-ordained, with free will? If exactly 144,000 Jews will convert to Christianity, what about that 144,001st Jew? What choice does he have? If he can't choose, how can his eternal condemnation be justified?
This is the same problem I had fitting Macbeth into the tragic hero mold.
posted on July 7, 2001 10:13:57 PM
So the topic is to avoid the mark of the antichrist?.....
"Above all, do not accept the mark of the beast on your right hand or forehead. If you do take the mark then nothing can be done for you -- you will suffer the malignant ulcer making the rest of your life almost unbearable. Did you ever have a canker sore in your mouth? If so, then you know how painful that was---just one little canker sore. Now think of having canker sores all over your body, on your genitalia, in your mouth. Think how painful and unbearable your life will be. Don't take that mark"
...and one way to avoid the mark is to email the U.N. about your mistaken idea of it's purpose concerning gun rights in the U.S.
posted on July 8, 2001 05:23:34 AM
I was channel surfing last night looking for something, anything, to watch on TV.
A local religious channel caught my ear because it sounded just like what I've been reading in this thread, the EU, Rapture, etc.
The man's name is Jack Van Impe.
The woman (his wife?) would read the news headlines and then the man would rattle off scripture to support the headlines. My head was spinning at the conclusion of the half hour.
Guess I could buy the video they were hawking for a "donation" of $34.95 and with a Bible in hand check it out for myself....
or not.
posted on July 8, 2001 06:54:08 AM
Terri, do you believe that globalization will be a sign of the end times, or the cause of the end times? When you say that those that "those that aren't productive to globalization" will *poof*," you seem to be indicating that you believe globalization will lead to the end times. But isn't that wrong? As I always thought I understood it, these events, globalization, earthquakes, etc., were signals, warnings, signs, of the coming end time.
Flashing red lights at the railroad crossing indicate that a train is coming. It's a signal, a warning, a sign. If we disconnected the wires of the lights, so they couldn't flash, that wouldn't stop the train from coming. Conversely, if we crossed the wires of the red lights, to force them to flash, that would not cause a train to come.
Do you consider that by opposing globalization because of biblical prophesy, people are confusing cause and effect?
posted on July 8, 2001 08:13:08 AM
Hi Donny. I would say it's <b>an event which must occur prior too</b> the beginning of the tribulation. It's because the antichrist will eventually require allegence that the entire one world organization is bothersome to Christians. (Aside from it's average bothersomeness.)
It is a vehicle by which to force the world into submission to the antichrist under what appears to be a friendly cause.
There different trains of thought regarding the rapture. Without using the technical terminology, Some think the rapture will occur prior to the tribulation, others at mid point, and other believe the rapture will occur at the end of the tribulation (smallest group). I lean pretty heavily toward pre-trib.
That said, it should make no difference to me personally because holding to that I should get swept away long before it's an issue. Many pre-trib wish/pray for it to come quickly. I eagerly look forward to meeting the Lord. At the same time there is the human nature side of me that says, "I want my kid's to grow up how I did.", "What about the people I love who are left behind?", etc.
(You may have just turned me into a pillar of salt I admit.)
Those who adhere strongly to a mid-tribulation rapture or a post tribulation rapture would be much more concerned about their own role and that of this organization during the tribulation.
I mentioned earlier that "any attempt would be useless". That was my meaning. That God's ordanined plan is as is and can not be swayed by our human desires or political attempts.
I want those left behind to know the prophesy in hopes that they will convert during the tribulation. With at least some understanding of prophesy it might be possible whereas with none, they would not realize what has happened and the chance of salvation for them would be dim. That's what the Lahaye books are about, planting seeds of understanding.
Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (Matthew 24:34). If the now generally accepted understanding of "generation" here is correct, the generation that saw Israel rise in 1948, that would be this current living generation. It makes sense in the context in which it was spoken and though we see the clear development upto the events as stated in prophesy, they have not all come to pass thusfar.
It is my opinion that the information provided by the originator of
this thread is offensive and degrading to humanity. The idea that we
are pawns in a cruel game played by an imaginary being is ludicrous.
Helen
"'Religion is based . . . mainly upon fear . . . fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand . ."
posted on July 8, 2001 09:12:02 AM
I guess it still sounds to me as if you're saying that globalization will be the cause, and not merely a sign, of the end times.
Do you have any enlightenment as to my prophecy/free will question?
posted on July 8, 2001 10:03:15 AM
Well, when I made my 1st post to this thread it was because I recognized the "story line" from a series of best selling books, and was wondering if these books had influenced jt and shaped her "beliefs". I was curious as to, whether or not, others who might read these books, would see them as "fact" and not just a really interesting angle on the age old questions concerning Bible Prophesy.
I also was curious as to why after 8 books the authors still had the majority of those "left behind" refusing to recognize the unfolding of Revelations (events were occurring "literaly" and not just by interpretation of events).
I think maybe Teri answered the question for me:
"But in the same vein, people who know God and know Christ can NOT understand why others can't see Him for who He is. He is so evident in my life everywhere."
I know there are many people (who profess faith/belief in God and Jesus Christ) who do not necessarily beleive events will occur exactly as fortold in Revelation.
I know lots of Christians who do not hold to the possibility of Rapture as an impending (no doubt about it) event. I know lots who do.
IF suddenly millions of people "vanished" simultaneously, and I was left standing alone in the streets of my town, I would know immediately that I had been wrong!!!! I would not have a doubt! It would be kinda late, but you know what they say about that. Better late than never!!!
Because of that, I was having a tough time "buying" the author's being able to drag the story out (over a 7 year timeline for the tribulation-in book 8 we are midway through that timeframe). I guess this means we could have 8 more books before the final judgement. I don't mind 'cause I like the books.
Helen-I have a friend who is very devout in his faith, who bought the first book and threw it away before even finishing it! Called it "garbage". He was "appalled" that anyone and especially supposed Christian writers, would portray his God as such a vicious, heartless, Being as to rip people away leaving trains to crash, planes to fall and patience left on operating tables with their chest cut open and no doctor left to finish the surgery!!!
So, your "feeling" on the matter is shared by at least some Christians.
I have felt/observed for awhile now, that we humans have a tendency to "create" God in our own image!
[ edited by sulyn1950 on Jul 7, 2001 01:52 PM ]