posted on July 8, 2001 10:23:20 AM
Thank you Teri, You have answered my Bush question by not answering it. I see where you wrote: That said, it should make no difference to me personally because holding to that I should get swept away long before it's an issue. Many pre-trib wish/pray for it to come quickly. I eagerly look forward to meeting the Lord.
I can now see why so many conservatives would deny that Bush is for globalization while wishing and praying for globalization to hurry up so to bring on the end times. Blinded by their own religious fervor I would have to say.
I do not want to see the end of the world happen in my lifetime or that of my children. I want to live to be a little old lady, whatever that entails. As much as I would love to see what lies in the great beyond I am in no great hurry to do so.
Sulyn, I don't think that people make God into something like themselves,not their own image. From what I read here and other places Christians ghave made God into a "wicked Stepmother" type figure. One that would tie you up and leave you in the closet for punishment or burn your hand on the stove.
I rebel mightily at that image. Why would I want to subject myself to the whims of such a being through eternity? I am so very glad that that is not the image of God that I have in my head and heart. My God I do not have to fear. I pity, I really do pity, those that feel they must fear their God in order to please it.It seems to me that Satan is the one that would use fear tactics and the true God would use only love. JMHO
Now, How about that AntiChrist and guncontrol? [just to stay on topic]
posted on July 8, 2001 11:32:01 AMrawbunzel-I guess I should clarify my "our own image" statement.
Each of us seems to have our own "idea" of what "our" God is like!
How many times have you heard someone say: My God wouldn't do that.....
If there is only one God, how can He be so different (or at least perceived to be) to so many people? I feel it's because we each "make" Him into what we need HIM to be....hence, "created in our own image".
Then again, (at the risk of heading in yet another direction)since He created us and allowed each of us to evolve into our own person, maybe He wishes for each of us to be different and perceive Him differently for a reason????? Only time will tell eh?
posted on July 8, 2001 11:51:58 AMHe wishes for each of us to be different and perceive Him differently for a reason?????
This hits upon something I've wondered for a while, what if God wants free thinkers in his heaven....not a bunch of sheep that will believe whatever the best preacher tells them to?
posted on July 8, 2001 11:55:56 AM
I understood what you meant Sulyn, really, I did. My point was that people make God into an image not of themselves but either of something they fear or something they wish they themselves were. I would not want a God in my image or anyone elses image on this earth for that matter.I want God to be better than that.
I am not completely sure that I agree that we all have the same God. I do believe that there may be more than one being at work here and I do not mean old mr. satan.
I simply have not ever been able to understand why anyone would want to worship a being that was as cruel and unforgiving as to do things to beings it supposedly loves such as Terri and her links describe as happening if there were such a thing as rapture .[which I am pretty sure is the invention of man in recent times...something to do with the man that eventually founded the mormon church but I would have to research that again and I just don't feel like it today] If it were truly a loving God why not just take the ones that are strong and true believers to heaven and leave the rest here to fend? Why make them have open weeping sores and suffer until they come around to its way of thinking or burn in hell?
If an Alien being were to show up here and tell us that if we didn't all comply to its ways we would be given tribulations such as those URLs describe God giving we would all rebel. There would be a huge war of the worlds even. Men would not accept that. "Do as I say or I will cover you with weeping sores"... No man would accept that..they would say to bring on the sores and fight for what they had no matter what. Why would we accept this from any being at all? This I cannot and never will understand. If you can enlighten me please do.
posted on July 8, 2001 12:00:05 PM
"God in man's image" is a play on the Biblical statement that God created man in his image. That may be true but it's been noticed that the reverse is true as well. Take ten people, even of the same religion, and ask them about God and you've got ten different Gods.
posted on July 8, 2001 12:02:32 PM
Lotsafuzz, I have wondered that myself. Why wouldn't god want free thinkers in heaven ,especially since we are born with free will. Why do so many give away their free will to preachers ~ not to god ~that tell them what they interpret the bible to mean? I do think God would want us to think for ourselves and to not be sheep.Because really, as I have stated before I would not want to be in a place like that. I like to believe there is room for everyone. Including my pets!
I am spiritual, not religious. I prefer it that way. So for that I should burn for eternity? Something is wrong...very wrong..with that picture.
posted on July 8, 2001 12:13:23 PM
Maybe so, James, but Terri has the right God. With all the fourth-generation translations of 'the' bible available (and any translation into modern English is at _least_ fourth generation), and the differing precedent translations on which to base them, it is truly a sign of divine providence that the right one has been delivered unto her.
Of course, latching onto a set of beliefs linked to evangelical "spread the word" actions is not uncommon. Often those who do so find life to be otherwise void of meaning and direction. But in the OAI, they mostly go out and try to start their own auction sites rather than turning to religion.
-gaffan-
posted on July 8, 2001 12:21:55 PM
If a lone figure walked the streets proclaiming the end of the world is at hand and that the Antichrist is coming (but watch out, he may pretend to be from outer space!) and God's going to beam up all the faithful before things really get out of hand, that person would be deemed mentally deranged.
But when many people espouse the same bizarro beliefs, it's called a religion.
Oh, and our President just happens to be one of them.
posted on July 8, 2001 12:46:53 PMWhy wouldn't god want free thinkers in heaven ,especially since we are born with free will.
I think about this a lot, particularly in regard to people who live lives or hold beliefs that appear to be in conflict with the church.
I keep coming back to the parable of the talents -- you know, the master who gives his servants a certain number of "talents," or pieces of money, then later asks them what they did with the talents he gave them.
One reports that he invested them and made a profit (I'm paraphrasing here), another reports that he invested them and lost it all, and yet another reports that he buried his in the ground and let it sit there for safekeeping.
The natural inclination is to think that the master would be angriest with the servant who lost all his money through bad investment, but in fact he's most pissed with the one who buried it in the ground and didn't even try to realize a return on what he'd been given.
God gave us all a potential. He gave us free will, identity, intelligence, ambitions, desires, etc. Yet the Christian church would have us suppress many of these -- or as I see it, bury them in the ground.
I wonder sometimes if the ones who will be judged negatively in the afterlife are those who listened to the church, who believed the puny-minded men who made the rules, and in doing so never lived to the potentials that they were given ... who willingly settled for the complacency that is the backbone of Christianity ... who squander their lives at the behest of men who say they know how we should live.
P.S. If I recalled the parable of the talents inaccurately, feel free to correct me. I didn't have the energy to go look it up.
posted on July 8, 2001 04:40:37 PM
I have been busy today so I am way behind here but a couple of thoughts.
For the record, Sulyn, I only read two of the books. I didn't particularly care for them but it had nothing to do with the prophecy. I just prefer biographies and non-fiction. I have heard some criticism of them over the fact that if things happen much differently than in the book, people who have not studied scripture will mistake what is happening.
Gaffan, If something is in question, I go to the original Greek text. I was stupid and sold my OT Hebrew text on ebay. Big mistake.
Besides the talents, there are the gifts of the spirit. To one given this and to another that. Jesus selected VASTLY different people to do His work. What is heaven is full of free thinkers who all know the true God, meaning of life, etc?
I don't see God as an "evil stepmother" at all. If you take your Bible, go through it in it's entirety picking out only "the character of God" then you can more objectively form your own opinion. Every person (who wants to know more) should study the Bible on their own. No one should follow any preacher or teacher blindly but go to the word of God for themselves with emphasis on the words of Christ. (Get a red letter version.)
There is a study called "God A-Z" that is for older kids and teens. It uses scripture to reveal the character of God (using each letter of the alphabet). I will be happy to post the A-Z list if anyone wants to see it and provide scripture for any traits in question. A big problem with Bible study (and the Baptist Sunday School writers are the WORST) is that if you jump here, jump there, this verse, that verse, repeat again next year, you never get the BIG PICTURE. It is all One train of thought for thousands of years.
posted on July 8, 2001 07:25:17 PM
Terri, you can read the bible in Greek? I studied Greek for 6 years, and unless the sentence is "My house is blue," I can't make heads or tails out of it.
posted on July 8, 2001 09:14:33 PMTeri-I can see this is very important to you, so please don't think I am trying to belittle you by my statements/questions. I'm not, buuut....
When you made your original post and subsequent comments, I knew what you were talking about because I recognized them as storylines in a series of books. It has taken me all eight books to get all the events you have described throughout this thread. So if you have only read 2 of the books and didn't care for them, where are you getting your "information"?
So far you have said the UN & the EO will become the governing force in a "globilized" government. There will be a cashless society, there will be one man rise to power very quickly and he will be seen as someone good when in fact he is the anitchrist! You have mentioned 144,000 Jews as being converted to Christianity and they will more than likely loose their lives because of it. By beheading to be specific.
There will come a time when we will be expected to take the "mark" if we want to be able to have access to food, ect. You caution not to take that mark no matter how tempting......
Are these your feelings???? How have you arrived at these beliefs????
Why do I ask??? Because these are the events outlined in the 8 books of the series almost event for event.
If the books have been critisized because it is feared people will read them and think this is the way it will be and therefore not recognize events as prophesy if they don't conform to these books, where does that leave you?
Please, just be careful of your sources. I would not like to see you misguided, because as I said earlier, I can tell it is important to you.
posted on July 8, 2001 09:44:48 PM
Sulyn, Except for the part about the UN, I have heard all of this stuff before.It was coming out of the mouth of Pat Robertson and a few of the other more "out there" Televangelists. Wish I could remember their names. There's the guy with red hair and hair implants that does some radio talk show as well as the tv.Thinks everyone is possessed. Lots of them talk of these things.
It is nothing new. It just changes every year as some new proof of "prophesy" takes the place of the old.
posted on July 9, 2001 08:29:16 AM
Donny, I have a an encyclopedia volume of books that has the greek text with translation underneath. I use the translation. I don't claim to have a seminary education. I have just always read the Bible.
Sulyn, the books are based on Biblical prophecy that has been studied and taught in Chritian churches, seminaries, books for years by thousands of different scholars/authors/individuals. The content
in the two I read was nothing at all new (though it was "enhanced" to create a storyline).
The links I posted are not based on the fictional books by Lahaye, the books are based on the same scriptures that the site authors have used. Televangelist don't dream it up. I have never watched Pat Robertson...
or any other televangelist except perhaps Billy Graham a few times. I have read Billy Graham's biography.
I honestly had NO idea that any of this was "news". I guess I have always assumed that most everyone in American has a knowledge of the basic teachings of the Bible whether they have accepted or rejected it.
Now am toally confused by your earlier comments. Sorry.
posted on July 9, 2001 09:46:09 AMTeri-No it is not "news" to me, but it could be to some. I also read the Bible. However, I really have never heard anyone put the book of Revelation into quite the format as the authors of these books. In fact, I have heard many many different interpretations over the years and I have had quite a few years .
I even know someone (78 years old now) who had really believed Hitler was the anitchrist. Of course, there were some who agreed. I imagine there were probably even those that were able to point out headlines of the time and happenings of the time and link at least some of them to Prohpesy.
I am not saying Rapture will not occur. I cannot even say it will not be anytime soon. I don't believe I should even say that the Prophesy Evangelist are all total fruitcakes. I am NOT that wise. I also guarantee that if suddenly millions disappear in a split second, I will know why! I will also kick myself becuase I'm still standing there! I would not be blind to it. I also feel like you do, that just about everyone in America has probably at least heard it mentioned. That's why I asked the question I did. But, as I also mentioned earlier, you have answered my question. It appears that if you already have a strong feeling/relationship with God, you cannot understand how anyone could not recognize/believe in Him. I also have become aware that there are always going to be those (myself included I must confess) who cannot see God as allowing all those horrible things to happen anywhere near the way you have described. If it starts happening, I'll know I was wrong.
But going around stating, seemingly as fact, that the UN will be where the antichrist comes from (cause the Bible says so), or that only 144,000 Jews will be converted to Christianity and they will more than likely end up beheaded (cause the Bible says so) could (as you have already pointed out) cause people to NOT recognize Prophesy as it unfolds.
In fact, these authors are the only ones who have put the "events" together exactly as you have been stating them. I realize they, and those who believe like them, would probably have a tendency to interpret events similarly, BUT word for word, event by event?
I am all for bringing attention to the possibility of Prophesy. I just think it should be presented in a "This is one possibility..." format over a "This is what is going to happen..." because the latter could mislead and cause some to "fall away", so to speak. Now, we both know what the Bible says about causing one to fall away don't we? I sure don't want to tie a millstone around my neck!
Anyway, I have enjoyed this thread and I assure you, I will keep an eye and ear open. You be sure and do the same. OK?
posted on July 9, 2001 09:59:02 AM
Well, Terri, I guess that makes at least two of us that are confused.
I think most people (like me) have a basic knowledge of the Bible. But, are also surprised that there are people (like you) that believe every word written. You feel sorry for me because I can't accept the Lord and the Bible. I feel sorry for you because you are way over the top with your beliefs.
Perhaps neither one of us will get to heaven because of our beliefs.
posted on July 9, 2001 10:46:29 AMchococake-I know a young girl who has probably the best definitions for "righteous" vs "self-righteous" I have ever heard:
Righteous-living your life in a manner pleasing to God as taught by Jesus Christ.
Self-righteous-Believing you are always right.
I really, really, really try to not be self-righteous. It's not always easy, cause we are suppose to witness too! Most of us can only proclaim what we feel is right!
Sure hope we get "graded" on a bell curve!
oops!
[ edited by sulyn1950 on Jul 9, 2001 10:52 AM ]
posted on July 9, 2001 01:51:54 PM
Sulyn, I agree with what you said up there. Several times I used "if this is
correct", or "could be" or "likely". I stated that NO ONE knows the time. The bible says that and I don't know the time. I do believe the Bible is the accurate and inspired, faithful word of God. (This maybe the area in which we hold a different view.)
I like to consider and ponder these things. I do read what the Bible says and use my best judgment to discern HOW it MIGHT happen...and I think that is what these books are. I believe the only possible option for error is our interpretation, not in the prophecy.
In Daniel 12 it talks about understanding prophecies that have been "sealed up"
until the end times.
(Please insert "according to scripture" in the following statments.)
People now understand the meaning of the fig tree in relation to Israel but only
since 1948. We know the Bible says that Israel will be attacked by what is now
modern day Russia. We know that the entire world will "see" the witnesses at the
wall. I can see the wall: http://aish.com/wallcam/
The entire world will hear the gospel:
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?
We read of an army of 200 million in the East. Only now is China capable of that. Scripture says that the one world government will rise of nations in the area of the old Roman empire (which fits with the EU) and from this the antichrist will rise. (Will the EU merge with the UN to form a global government? An assumption admittedly.) Only now are we getting close to a cashless system of international currency. I could go on.
So what I speak of is not in anyway a "supernatural" insight. When I consider the period in which these things were written they appeared IMPOSSIBLE...unfathomable. They no longer are. I don't think anyone, believer or not, would disagree that they are not impossible, even unreasonable, now.
Jesus said when we see Israel rise again, the time is "NEAR" and that happened in 1948. What is NEAR....heck, I have no idea. (A year is like 1000 years to God.) So we are instructed to "keep watch" because it will come "like a thief in the night" while people are eating, drinking, giving in marriage (going about as usual without thought to it). I am mearly trying to "stay awake". It is not my intention to mislead anyone or claim anything above what scripture says but to encourage them to read and study for themselves and to keep watch.
I have enjoyed talking to you very much. (Though I could do without the gawking.)
Even sincere searchers will debate...and that's ok. You are very pleasant to debate with. If I don't talk to you again here, I will talk to you again.
Take care.
T.
~"Then I heard the number of those (Jews) who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of
Israel." Rev. 7:4
posted on July 9, 2001 02:29:54 PMthe greek text with translation underneath. I use the translation
Teri, I just don't see how having an English translation with the Greek it was supposedly translated from above it could be construed to constitute "refer[ing] to the original Greek."
The point is that whatever you're reading and calling "the bible" is a particular translation with a tourturous path between you and the earliest available written versions of these stories and fables. To interpret literally a set of such disparate works, all of which have travelled through several languages, shedding and gaining nuance and even meaning at either the translators' whim or ignorance, or semantic drift over the centuries, is in itself a leap of faith far greater than the one needed to accept the existence of God.
-gaffan-
posted on July 9, 2001 02:53:45 PMgaffan-I hear what you are saying about "translations". I took Latin for 2 years in high school. I worked very hard, and would painstakingly translate to the best of my "knowledge" (I use that term loosley)...
I would hand in my papers and then when the instructor would hand them back I always had a big 'ole C on the top. I was told I was given "credit" for obvious effort!
The instructor was very patient with me. She also had a bit of fun with me. She more than once would comment "Keep in mind there is no such thing as Creative Latin!
So, though supposedly there is no room for "creativity" in Latin (it's either right or wrong), I seemed to have a knack for crossing the line.
I have found myself thinking it would be great if I could read the "original" text and writings that were studied and used to put together our present day Bible, but realize it would do me no good. I would probably still get it wrong!
I have enjoyed talking to you very much. (Though I could do without thegawking.
That was unnecessary. When you post a tale as weird as this one on the net, you should expect a whole lot of "gawking". Although, I don't believe that gawking is the correct word to use. Most readers of this thread probably had some serious considerations about this topic which were tactfully withheld.
posted on July 9, 2001 05:16:04 PM
I have to admit, I didn't know what gawk meant, but I looked it up (so I wouldn't do it again).
Gawk-akward fellow, stare stupidly
Gawky (adj)-clownish, clumsy
I am guilty as charged! I did make a couple of attempts at humor hoping to keep my comments from being perceived as possibly condescending and perhaps they were a bit clownishly clumsy. I'll have to work a bit more on my "timing"! I guess I'm not ready to give up my day job!
I may have come off a bit too frivolous. I try not to take myself too seriously...especially since discovering nobody else did!
It's been fun and I might have even learned a thing or two!
Is this the place we can kick back, relax, and have fun! Share a story, tell a joke, write a poem, make a friend...???
posted on July 9, 2001 06:48:50 PM
Sulyn, I didn't mean you. I received quite a bit of email from people who did not post to this thread. I did enjoy talking with you. If I had known how to contact you privately, I would have liked to have much of the conversation in private.
UNFORTUNATELY AW did away with e-mail and you can't post links to other boards....so one is pretty much trapped here once a conversation gets going. Suggestions?
***
I agree that it is a public forum. Suppose I were in another public place, say the park, and I was having a conversation with somone(s) about religion, and you were not a religious person, would you feel compelled to walk over and tell me that my holy book was mythology? Or would you just ignore it and have a conversation with someone about something you DO care about? That baffles me here.
Good topic for a new thread..."How to make a new friend, have a meaningful conversation about a meaningful topic without gawking". I need tips.
posted on July 9, 2001 06:55:06 PM
sulyn - I've enjoyed your participation in this thread.
Terri - I used to get so irritated with your threads and your witnessing on a public board. But, now I try very hard to take your comments and religious opinions for their entertainment value.
posted on July 9, 2001 07:09:25 PM
Teri (or others)-Should you ever wish to email, just click on my AW ID, I have my email showing in the User Profile. I don't always watch that one close, but I do check it a couple of times a day.
Warning though, if you think I'm "windy/wordy" here, watch out for my emails! I can get carried away! On the upside, I don't use all those neat itallics and bolds and cute winkie/blinkies AND I can use spell checker! So, you are spared that!
.
[ edited by sulyn1950 on Jul 9, 2001 10:52 AM ]