posted on July 9, 2001 09:21:15 PM
Terri, If you don't want to hear any opposing viewpoints why do you post here? This is not a religous board. If you only want to talk to like minded people then you really need to just go there and post these kinds of things. I find the discussion interesting even when I don't agree. I like being able to talk to people that hold different views than I do. I can see that you really only want to talk to people who feel just like you do and that ain't here and it never has been and it never will be. You should know that as well as I do. You've been here longer.
I was not Gawking.I am insulted to have you say so.
posted on July 10, 2001 10:26:11 AM
I BELIEVE IT!!
Everything you all have written, I believe it - every word of it. Yup, I do. Every word.
Until someone else says something else, then I'll believe what they said.
Why is it so important to some people to encourage/make other people believe what they believe? Damn, if you've found the TRUTH as only members of your cult/club/religion/coffee clatch see it - go for it, embrace it, glory in it, live knowing that everyone else is damned - but stop trying to sell it to me. I don't need your beliefs, got my own thanks.
posted on July 12, 2001 08:03:40 AM
The gun control issue is an attempt to curtail illegal possession of weapons, not the legal possession of weapons. If one legally possesses a weapon then it is known where the weapons are. Government control. UN control. One world government.
If you want the best answers to how this relates to the Bible prophecy:
Repent, meaning change--a desirable thing for most of us--not change completely, but those things that are undesirable.
Ask for forgiveness for wrong-doing. Again, not an undesirable thing as we are then able to forgive ourselves.
Try God. If it doesn't work out for you the devil will always take you back. Let a more perfect Being be in control of your life. It's very simple really. All you need is faith that has the same size as a mustard seed and they are very, very small seeds. That's ALL the faith you have to have to give this a chance which makes it the most logical first choice as it is the easiest.
When a tragedy happens in your life and you say "Oh, God, why me?" that is faith the size of a mustard seed, or more.
Pretend scenario:
You are driving through the worst nightmare of a neighborhood. Your car breaks down at 2am with a phone booth one block down in your sight, it is pouring rain, thunder, and lightening. You gather the strength to walk to the phone booth. Half way there a door opens and out walks 10 huge guys that are really scarey looking. Would it help you to know that they just stepped out of a Bible study? Of course, you would be relieved even if you don't believe in God. That is faith the size of a mustard seed or more.
There has been suggestions here to read the Bible for yourself, especially the red-letter which is Jesus words. After the above just say a simple prayer that you want to read and understand. You will.
God as 'our Father' is a loving God. He is also our creator as much as a potter creates a beautiful clay urn. If the urn slumps during firing the potter will smash it because it is proof that it is not his best work. Until that point he would have put his heart and soul into making it the best it can be.
God loves you so much that He not only put His heart and soul into making you, but He also gave you free will to choose Him. You don't have to, He will not force Himself into your life. He loves you so much that He sacrificed His son, a walking breathing human being, who died publicly for your sins so you don't have to. He worked the miracle of bringing Him (Jesus) back to life to prove to you that He (God) is real. Jesus lived, died, and lived again in a public way as an example of how we are to live to please our creator.
God loves you and all humans so much that He has given much proof of His existence over the course of two thousand years so that you will use your free will to choose Him. Just as a potter will not keep every ruined pot but will eventually clean out his studio, God has let us know there will be an end.
The Lahaye books are fiction based on Biblical prophecy as an example of what it might be like should there be a rapture.
The gun control issue is just one of many current happenings that 'fit' with Biblical prophesy given as a gift to the people that our LOVING God is trying to save. That we refuse to use our free will to give Him a chance is our choice, not His.
When you guide, lead, and direct your children into living a good life that will eventually involve punishment for wrong doing. You will punish your child because you love them so much that you don't want them to turn out to be bad people. God, our Father, does the same thing. If your child continues to misbehave you might eventually have to ask them to move from your home as you cannot accept their behavior or lifestyle. God, our Father, does the same thing.
If you want to learn history do not read a math book. If you want to know for yourself what is 'real' about God, it is really very simple. Go to the source as best as you can, not the TV evangelists, churches, etc. Read the Bible with a sincere heart of wanting to know and pray and open yourself to what is 'real'. This is all about spirituality, not religion.
The gun control issue has been brought forth here as just one of many, many 'warnings' that our LOVING Father has provided. Some will just not get it and perish, that is also predicted.
posted on July 12, 2001 05:43:59 PMIf there is a rapture
I believe in God, the Bible and my own beliefs.
I find interesting is this fact
In the 1830s, a Scottish visionary, who belonged to a sect known as the Irvingites, claimed while in a trance that the rapture or gathering to be with Christ would occur before the period of persecution. This position, now known as the "pre-tribulational" view, was embraced by John Nelson Darby, one of the early leaders of a Fundamentalist movement which became known as Dispensationalism. Darby's pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C. I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Bible uncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the pre-tribulational view, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history.
There are many 'sects' of the Christian church, Dispensationalists, Millieniumist, etc.
And even though I believe I am a Christian, not once in the Bible does it say Christian even in the Greek or Latin texts.
posted on July 12, 2001 07:05:03 PM
This is in Revelations. Did you know you will be blessed for reading that chapter? Rev.1:3.
Christian by definition is one who believes in and/or is a love-er of Jesus Christ. What denomination is choosen ie Catholic, Baptist, etc. doesn't matter, he/she is still a Christian.
posted on July 12, 2001 07:09:42 PM
"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44)
Other scriptures refer to Christ's return as "a thief in the night" (1 Thessalonians 5:2). The reasoning is that if we see the antichrist rise, if we have gone through the tribulation, we will be expecting it.
I beleive that the person you refer to is Margaret McDonald. Here is a something that well predates McDonald and Darby:
Epharaem the Syrian, 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
It is often debated. Always be ready then you can't miss either way.
posted on July 12, 2001 08:48:00 PM
You mean St. Ephraim of Syria?
Is that in the Bible? No, it is from a sermon, written by a wise man, but was it a vision? Was he a prophet?
The "rapture" is a different event than the "Second Coming of Christ" which is taught in Scripture and by Churches the world over. (The Second Coming I mean)
The purpose of the rapture is to save Christians from the Great Tribulation. Right?
Now tell me where in all the Bible has God ever saved his people from tribulation?
His entire people mind you, not one or two, or even a small group, but his entire people.
You can't. The Jews were put through tribulation so many times its sickening to think of, as were the early Christians up till the time of the Roman Emperor Constantine(he was the guy that made Christianty the Roman State Religion and ended the persecutions)
So why would he he save Christians and 'swoop' them up in flash, not having to suffer at all. Look at our history. There is a purpose they suffered, and it is God only to make the call, not for us to understand it.
Like everything else, faith is what we have, we are not here to understand everything God does or will do, that is impossible.
Should we always focus on the apocalyptic times? Or live as God would want you to live?
Yes, I believe there will be 'End Times' and 'The Second Coming'. And yes, you should be prepared. But not by focusing on who is going to be in this rapture, but by your faith, your faith alone is what will save you, no matter what happens.
posted on July 12, 2001 09:37:07 PMJt & Jlpiece & Simco Great Posts and Links! God Bless!!
spazmodeus
I'm glad you have heard of the story of the talents.
The story of the talents can be found in Matthew 25:14-30
It's late and I am ready to fall asleep, so I hope I am telling this correctly.
There was a Man who was leaving to go to another country who called his servants and loaned them money to INVEST for him while he was gone.
He gave $5,000 to one, $2,000 to another, and $1,000 to the last. He divided the money in proportion to what he felt there abilities were.
He then left on his trip.
The Man who received the $5,000 began to buy and sell with it and earned another $5,000.
The man with $2,000 went right to work and earned another $2,000.
The man who received the $1,000 dug a hole in the ground and hid the money for safekeeping.
Their master returned from his trip and called them to give an account of his money.
The man who he had entrusted the $5,000 brought him $10,000. His master praised him for his good work and gave him more responsibilities and "joyous" tasks.
Next came the man who received the $2,000 and he reported that he had Doubled his money.
His master was again pleased and told him he was a good and faithful servant. He also told him he would give him much more.
Then the man with the $1,000 told him, he knew he was a hard man and he was afraid that he would Rob him of the earned money. So he hid his money!
His master was Not happy and told him he was wicked and lazy. This servant was not a faithful servant, even though he had little responsibility.
His master told him that he knew he would demand a profit and that he could have (at the very least) put his money in the bank to gain interest on it.
The master took the mans' $1,000 and gave it to the one with the Most responsibility (the man with the $10,000.)
"For the man who uses well what he is given shall be given more, and he shall have abundance. But from the man who is unfaithful, even what little responsibility he has, shall be taken from him."
God asks that we try to do something with our abilities and resources. We should try to make progress. Even the least improvement is better than nothing. God does ask for faithfulness.
I haven't found the word 'rapture' in the Bible but there are references to the believers (saints they are sometimes referred to) being taken before the tribulation which would pre-date either of the prophets referred to.
The way I understand it is that the rapture, tribulation, and then the Second Coming is the order of events predicted.
God has saved His people from tribulation so many times I couldn't list them all. Just a few more 'famous' ones are the parting of the Red Sea, Noah's Ark, and Christ dying on the cross for our sins. After reading your post again I see that you said where has God saved all His people at one time. Well, I'm not sure about the Red Sea event, but Noah's Ark Was about God saving ALL His people, and definitely the cross is too. If they weren't saved from tribulation, they were not His people.
There is probably a lot being blamed on God when it is actually how one human, or group of, persecutes another. Actually, being a Christian doesn't save us from the every day tribulations of life. In fact you know that you will be persecuted JUST FOR being Christian....look at the reception on this board. It is difficult to have a discussion about ancient history, which is what a lot of this stuff is, if it includes a belief in Christ as a personal savior. Christianity itself is very simple, it's the history that goes with it that gets complicated.
The discussion of the Rapture, Tribulation, Second Coming is just that, a discussion. It is not preaching, but discussion as with any other subject. It's just that these subjects stir emotions so strongly that some people would rather ignore the discussion than be awakened emotionally.
I also do not believe that we should give up living today and only concentrate on those future predicted events. But coming to our own understanding of them is IMO a good thing. It just somehow seems healthy, and more well-rounded for a person to be able to state their spiritual beliefs, discuss them, and be able to be open-minded enough to 'hone' them as a result.
Faith is important. But if one really wants to be sure of what to believe, to 'know' rather than believe, it is possible.
posted on July 13, 2001 07:55:15 AM
From Matthew 24 (Words of Christ, A LOT more in that chapter and a must read.)
For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
*******
Doesn't matter it it's 1000 years or if it's tomorrow.
James, there are degrees of persecution. I am very very very sorry that your grandmother endured what she did.
T
posted on July 13, 2001 07:58:47 AM
Terri, I just wanted to point out that a skeptical reception on a message board that is optional to visit is not persecution by any measure of the word.
posted on July 13, 2001 08:11:46 AM
I understood your point James. It happens more than just on a message board that is optional. Christians are being obedient to God in carrying out the Great Commission and that does result in persecution. For us in the US, it is very minor. Missionaries are put to death in other countries everyday. I see messages on homeschool boards by missionary families that can not reveal their location for fear of their life. My curriculum supplier (a company that began as a supplier to overseas missionaries) has to work out arrangements to "smuggle" Christian homeschool materials to them.
At any rate, with varying degrees, being obedient to God comes with a price from the world, not from God. That's what Christ meant then He said "pick up your cross and follow Me". It is to be expected. If the Holy God in human form was not received by the world...then why should humans with His message be?
T
Good morning, btw.
[ edited by jt on Jul 13, 2001 08:13 AM ]
posted on July 13, 2001 08:25:06 AMjt: I think Christians as a group would be a lot less "persecuted" if they would stop trying to shove *their* religion down other's throats. And missionaries can be among the worst in this department.
Your own bible, which I believe you said you believe *every word* of says:
Matthew 6
1
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3
But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4
That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
posted on July 13, 2001 10:48:40 AM
from Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism (Chogyam Trungpa)
It is important to see that the main point of any spiritual practice is to step out of the bureaucracy of ego. This means stepping out of ego's constant desire for a higher, more spiritual, more transcendental version of knowledge, religion, virtue, judgment, comfort or whatever it is that a particular ego is seeking. One must step out of spiritual materialism. If we do not step out of spiritual materialism, if we in fact practice it, then we may eventually find ourselves possessed of a huge collection of spiritual paths. We may feel these spiritual collections to be very precious. We have studied so much. We may have studied Western philosophy or Oriental philosophy, practiced yoga or perhaps studied under dozens of great masters. We have achieved and we have learned. We believe that we have accumulated a hoard of knowledge. And yet, having gone through all this, there is still something to give up. It is extremely mysterious! How could this happen? Impossible! But unfortunately it is so. Our vast collections of knowledge and experience are just part of ego's display, part of the grandiose quality of ego. We display them to the world and, in so doing, reassure ourselves that we exist, safe and secure, as "spiritual" people.
But we have simply created a shop, an antique shop. We could be specializing in oriental antiques or medieval Christian antiques or antiques from some other civilization or time, but we are, nonetheless, running a shop. Before we filled our shop with so many things the room was beautiful: whitewashed walls and a very simple floor with a bright lamp burning in the ceiling. There was one object of art in the middle of the room and it was beautiful. Everyone who came appreciated its beauty, including ourselves.
But we were not satisfied and we thought, "Since this one object makes my room so beautiful, if I get more antiques, my room will be even more beautiful." So we began to collect, and the end result was chaos.
We searched the world over for beautiful objects - India, Japan, many different countries. And each time we found an antique, because we were dealing with only one object at a time, we saw it as beautiful and thought it would be beautiful in our shop. But when we brought the object home and put it there, it became just another addition to our junky collection. The beauty of the object did not radiate out any more, because it was surrounded by so many other beautiful things. It did not mean anything anymore. Instead of a room full of beautiful antiques we created a junk shop!
---------------------------
Or, "The Soul as eBay Room."
Another good book: Godless Morality, by Richard Holloway.
Regarding the superstitious stuff about the Raptures, I would have said I didn't believe in it either, but have come to realize that the Raptures is real, and ongoing. Don't believe that bunk about people being swooped up, though--it just affects socks and the good sewing scissors, as we all know.
posted on July 13, 2001 03:02:26 PM
jamesoblivion, I am so sorry to hear that your grandmother had to suffer through that. I used this as a lame example of persecution in comparison, but then the two--this and your grandmother's experience--are like apples and oranges.
Yes, she suffered persecution, but I would guess that was only part of her suffering which surely included loss of self-worth; loss of self-esteem; loss of family, home, money, friends, etc.; even loss of self to some extent. It is remarkable that she was able to live through it, and admirable that she did.
There is no way to repay a person for that experience like giving them a medal, erecting a monument, or even returning to them their own possessions and money that were stolen from them. Nothing will ever make up for that on this earth.
There is just no accounting for the horrors that one human might subject another to.
The idea in the verses that you quoted is to say when you do good, don't shout it from the rooftops. Do it in such a manner that you are not calling attention to yourself, boasting, showing off, or belittling someone else for NOT doing it. Do it simply because it needs to be done, out of love, and with the idea that the person you are helping is a child of God, and may be an incarnation of Him. And with the realization that what you have is a direct result of God and belongs to Him to share with others.
Tithing is a different matter, the only thing that God says we can test Him on. We are to give our 'First Fruits', meaning giving off the top before anything else--we give our BEST, at least 10%, and more if we are so lead to. God says try this, you will receive back tenfold. The idea is that your heart has to be in the right place. Giving to get is NOT going to get you anything. Giving with sincerity and love WILL get you something.
When you have $50,000 and you give $1,000 what have you actually done? You could have given so much more. When you have $1,000 and give $1,000 you have great faith and have done a great work, and WILL be rewarded accordingly. When you give only to those who can give back, what have you done? When you love only those who love you back, what have you done?
There is a verse where Jesus is praising someone for giving Him a drink (or something) and they reply that they didn't do that. So He reminds them that they gave a drink (or something) to a beggar (or somebody).....He knew they were responding to 'need' in a 'right' manner, in His name.
I agree that 'shoving' one's belief down the throat of anyone else is Not the best way. It is not recommended in the Bible either. One thing that will happen before the Rapture, if I remember this correctly, is that every human will have the opportunity to hear the Word of God, the Gospel (which means 'Good News' BTW) and have the opportunity to use their free will to choose Him.
That is why innocent children will be Raptured as they will not have had the opportunity to choose. Notice I said innocent, we don't know what an age 'cut-off' would be, some children can understand very young as the Gospel is very simple---if they have good teachers. Notice I didn't say good preachers.
That is the idea behind missionaries, to make sure they do their part in spreading the Word. I too have a problem with Some missionaries, preachers, TV evangelists, etc. I have no doubt that those folks turn more people away from Christianity than to it. Remember, they are human beings and not to be 'followed'.
We need a personal relationship with Christ, answerable to Him directly. I apologize for any bad experiences anyone has had with excited Christians, but I ask that you do not turn away from the message because the messanger was less than desirable. If you DO turn away let it be because you put your heart and soul into giving Christ a chance (which requires very little actually), and it didn't work out for you.
This IMO is a discussion and I hope you do not consider it me trying to 'shove' my beliefs down your throat.
posted on July 13, 2001 03:52:16 PM
It appears that on AW persecution=disagreeing.
If you feel persecuted by folks that do not agree with your viewpoint then some of you would never make it through any kind of tribulation that is for sure.
