posted on July 11, 2001 01:51:09 PM new
I'm involved right now in a very messy family dispute and I'd like some advice.
My grandmother has lived with her son (my uncle) and his wife since my grandfather passed away 3 1/2 yrs. ago. We had an arrangement that I would take her on the weekends, which I did for the past 3 years up until February of this year.
My grandmother and I agreed that we wanted to take a break from each other and perhaps resume the weekend visits later, and maybe only do it once a month or so. Being around my 6 and 4 year old children every weekend was getting to be a bit much. However, she said that my uncle and his wife would not like it because they insisted that they have the weekends to themselves.
I won't get into all of the "he said, she said's" here, because that is hearsay. Here are the simple facts:
1. The first time I called to speak to my grandmother after the regular weekend visits stopped (back in early March), my uncle's wife (see, I can't even bear to refer to her as my aunt now, even though she was matron of honor at my wedding 10 yrs. ago ) hung up on me without giving me a chance to speak.
2. Despite that, my grandmother and I have had several phone conversations during this time that we've been apart.
3. I sent her an invitation a month in advance for my son's birthday party in June. My grandmother said all along that my uncle was bringing her, but suddenly, 2 days prior to the party, she said he was refusing to bring her. I offered to send my husband to pick her up, but she refused. I had the feeling I wasn't getting the whole story, and we both got upset and started arguing. We patched it up and agreed to see each other within the next couple of weeks when I wouldn't have other guests over. We were both happy when we hung up with each other.
4. A few hours later my uncle calls me up and tells me off and hangs up on me. Again, I'm not given an opportunity to say anything or even ask what's going on.
5. She calls me right away on Monday morning (first chance she got since I'd been told off on Friday). I'm outside with the kids at the time, so I find her message on my answering machine later. I call back, making sure to state that I'm returning her call. She told me the stepdaughter had been home at the time and overheard her yelling at me and told my uncle (when he got home from work) that we'd been screaming and yelling at each other. Nothing more. She didn't bother to say it had been settled. And before he called to tell me off, he told my grandmother she was never going to see me or my kids again. She said she told him nobody (except me) was going to keep her from us. And she told him that we'd settled the argument anyway.
6. She called me the last week in June and I picked up when I heard her speaking into the answering machine. I didn't need to return the call that time. We had a pleasant conversation and she was planning to ask my uncle when he could bring her for another weekend visit. She thought the whole thing was going to blow over.
7. We didn't call each other the first week in July.
8. I tried to call this past Monday, the 9th. I've discovered that either my uncle or his wife have put a block on my phone number, preventing my calls from going through. I have no idea when this was done, because I hadn't dialed the number since June 18th.
9. My grandmother called me yesterday and was horrified when I told her that I've been prevented from calling her. She can't believe that her own son is doing this to her, especially after she made it clear she will not be prevented from seeing us. She also told me that she hasn't been able to mail an anniversary card to us since May because my aunt has refused to mail anything to my address. My grandmother tried twice to have my aunt mail it, and the second time my aunt returned it to her with a nasty note attached, something like "I positively refuse to mail this, do not give it to me again."
10. She told me she was going to tell them how she felt about all of this, especially my current inability to call her, and demand that they let her see me. She was going to deal with it yesterday evening.
11. Without really knowing all of the he said's, she said's, I can tell you that she had been sent to my home on occasions when she was ill and really should have been kept home and/or seen a doctor. (On those occasions I took her to the doctor Saturday myself and he usually verified yes, she's sick and really shouldn't be at my house around young children, but...and wrote out a presription.) Also, she's been sent on those occasions when I've called to say that one of us was sick. Didn't matter. So I can believe that when she told me repeatedly that "she wasn't wanted there on the weekends" that there was something to these supposed statements.
I told my grandmother that since they've taken this extraordinary step and prevented me from calling her, that the only contact we have now is for her to call me. If she would be fine with that, then I would respect her wishes. However, she is not fine with that. She wants to see me and my family and that's it.
I asked my husband what I should do. He said he'll be behind me no matter what I decide.
I've called Adult Protective Services (without giving identifying info., just the situation) and they told me that my uncle and aunt have no right to prevent us from having contact with one another. However, if I choose to have them begin an investigation, it could get messy. If my uncle and aunt refuse to admit the APS people into the house, the APS will bring the police. If they're not home (and of course, my grandmother has also been instructed not to answer the door ever since she's been living there), then they will leave a card on the door instructing them to make an appointment to admit the APS people inside the house. If they do not do so within 30 days, the APS people will bring the police.
Despite how angry I am at having been hung up on twice and now am being prevented from calling my grandmother, I have no wish to bring trouble down upon her or my own family. But I am also concerned about her right to see me, talk to me, see my children, and even mail something to me and my rights to do the same. They are preventing her from doing these things against her wishes, just because I wouldn't abide by their rules and continue taking her every weekend.
I have not heard from her today, which is unusual. Generally, whenever there was an altercation over there regarding me, she'd be on the phone with me first thing in the morning to tell me about it. I tried to call and I'm still blocked (yes, other relatives have been able to get through and the phone company did verify that there is a block on my number), so I can't begin to imagine that they've agreed to sit down with me and work this out.
Frankly, I'm worried about her. I lived with her for 28 years in her house with my grandfather and moved out when I got married. So we have always had a long-standing relationship. I've had a couple of relatives suggest that I just let the 3 of them go their own way and forget about them. (And that would be easy if that's what my grandmother wanted.) My husband tells me to do what I want to do, even if it means getting social services involved.
Right now, I'm lost. Today is her birthday. She's 81. And I can't even call her to wish her a Happy Birthday, as I normally would. She told me yesterday that even if I were to mail her something, my aunt would probably destroy it before she even knew I'd sent something, since my aunt refuses to let her mail things to us. (Oh, my grandmother has also been told not to leave the house unless they're there, so she's not even allowed to walk down the driveway to stick the card in the mailbox herself.)
I also told her that if her desire to maintain contact with us is that important and they refuse to let her, the only alternative is to move out. (She was going to look for another place to live in March because she said they were making things very unpleasant for her right after the weekly visitations stopped. Then she said things seemed to get better, so she gave the idea up.) I suggested that they might be willing to help her get into independent living or something now. That way, no one except herself would have the right to say who she sees and doesn't see or talk to.
These are my options as I see them:
1. Forget about her and go on with my life with my family.
2. Get Adult Protective Services involved.
Can I live with myself if I choose option 1? My grandparents were always there for me right after my first child was born, visiting and helping every week. How do I turn my back on her now?
If I choose option 2, what further misery might my aunt concoct (she loves conflict and lawyers, I've just never been on the receiving end of her wrath before) for me and my family? We haven't don't anything wrong morally or legally by my grandmother. So I'm not exactly certain what trouble she could stir up, if any.
Has anyone had any experience with a situation like this and, if so, how did you handle it?
I'm sorry this has been so long. I'm sad and upset.
posted on July 11, 2001 02:04:16 PM new
You know, krs, you might be on the right track. I was wondering about those prepaid cell phones and whether or not that would benefit me.
My grandmother is technologically challenged. She doesn't even know how to delete messages from the answering machine (my grandfather did it when he was alive). If I can't successfully walk her through the process over the phone, I picture my aunt listening to the machine, hearing my voice, making immediate arrangements for an unlisted number, and not telling my grandmother what the number is to make sure she can't pass it on to me. Then none of my grandmother's siblings would even be able to call her.
I know that sounds extreme, but she's already taken some pretty extreme measures. That's the kind of vindictive person I'm dealing with here.
Thank you though, I just might get desperate enough to try it.
posted on July 11, 2001 02:37:16 PM new"My grandmother has lived with her son (my uncle) and his wife since my grandfather passed away 3 1/2 yrs. ago. We had an arrangement that I would take her on the weekends, which I did for the past 3 years up until February of this year."
Here is the root of your problem. I know from personal experience!
When the agreement was made, they believed you were going to relieve them on the weekends. You apparently made a very major decision without including your uncle and his wife in the decision. It may have been muturally agreed to by you and your grandmother, but your uncle and his wife should have been considered.
Take it from someone who has a parent living with them fulltime with no relief. It's not easy. I love my Dad and am greatful to have him and be in a position to "take care" of him, but it is 24/7. I have nobody to "give me a break". He can't be alone so just leaving him at home for the weekend is not an option. Maybe it isn't for your uncle and his wife either. As much as I love my Dad, I find myself wishing I just had a weekend to do what I wanted, or had time to go somewhere other than the grocery store or Post Office. So having someone to take up the slack would be nice.
I think this is where your Uncle and his wife are right now. They perhaps feel "trapped". Even though they may genuinely enjoy her being there with them. They need a break too!
Calling Adult Protective Services to look into the matter is a very serious step. Are you ready to take your grandmother on full time?
If APS were to insist your uncle allow your grandmother contact with you, he could say no. He could go so far as to indicate that they can no longer care for her under those conditions and request she be sent to you or a nursing home. Are you ready for that?
Too bad you can't talk to your uncle alone and find out from him what the real problem is. As you said, there could be a lot of "he-said" "she-said" going on and once that was straightened out you could work with him to come up with a solution to the weekends!
Something else to ponder. If you had not originally agreed to taking your grandmother on weekends, would your uncle have made different arrangements for her?
posted on July 11, 2001 02:57:29 PM new
Since your uncle & his wife are refusing to talk to you (or allow your grandmother to), is there another close relative who can look in on her to make sure she's alright? And/or to act as a moderator/conciliator between you?
For them to deny her contact with you or anyone else is a kind of elder abuse. It sounds like she is sound mentally though frail physically & she has the right to talk to or see anyone she likes. And exactly what did she mean by "they were making things unpleasant for her" when the weekend visits first stopped? Screaming at her? Denying her "privileges" in the house (as they are now with contacting you)? Worse?
I would try to reconcile any differences they may imagine exist before going through official channels. Sulyn is correct that you might find yourself the fulltime homegiver for your grandmother if you go that route--and it sound as if you are unwilling or unable to do that. But obviously something is going on at your uncle's house that needs to be resolved to your grandmother's benefit.
posted on July 11, 2001 03:43:23 PM new
I don't have any advice because if it was me, I'd probably drive over there at dinnertime when they were sure to be home and cause a ruckus. But I am glad to know that I'm not the only one with a messed up family. I divorced all of mine years ago.
Assuming your grandmother is in full control of her faculties, I'm getting a funny feeling there is more going on here. Like perhaps she is playing the "ends" against the "middle". Is there a possiblility that she is manipulating the situation?
When my grandfather passed away, my uncle and aunt made the decision to take her from her home and have her move in with them. I was not consulted on the matter at all. My taking her on the weekends came about because my aunt was constantly complaining about my grandmother and my grandmother was constantly complaining about my aunt. So, after this had been going on for the first couple of months, I offered to take her on the weekends. They were very happy with the arrangement, as was I and my family.
My grandmother is not infirm, mentally or physically. She does not need 24 hr. care in any capacity. As a matter of fact, she's home alone all day because my uncle and aunt both work. And they had always seemed to think she was perfectly fine, to the point of even taking annual trips to Florida without making any other arrangements for her other than having one of my aunt's children (step-children to my uncle) look in on her once in awhile. So she does not have anyone with her full-time anyway right now at their house.
My grandmother became unhappier and unhappier with coming to my home. She didn't want to pack a suitcase every Friday and come over and stay in a house with 2 sometimes noisy children. She loves them dearly, but from Friday night to Sunday night was too much for her. She was beginning to yell at me quite a bit as well as at the children. I do love her, but I wasn't about to put up with that behavior every weekend. Especially when she yelled at me repeatedly in front of the children. For example, if I started to do my dirty dishes, it was because I didn't trust her enough to do them, so she'd start in on me. Stuff like that. The last weekend she was in my home, she admitted to treating me badly because she was frustrated and tired of having to come all the time.
I did several times try to discuss the situation with both my aunt and uncle. My aunt didn't think that my having a 6 year old and a 4 year old should in any way interfere with my being able to have my grandmother in my home every weekend. She didn't want to talk to me about it anymore, so she'd put my uncle on the phone. My uncle assured me he would do what he could to help, but his solution to my problem was for me to tell my grandmother to SHUT UP! He wasn't interested coming up with any other solutions. So, I believe I gave them every opportunity to try to work with me on it beforehand and they certainly had enough warning from me that I was coming close to the breaking point with her hostile behavior.
In your situation, I can see why you'd be frustrated. But, as I said, my grandmother has been alone from the beginning of this. She's never had anyone staying with her during the day. And they will not allow anyone in their home when they're not there.
And since they both work full-time and feel free to take off for Florida to visit one of her children, I don't see where they come off as being trapped. At least before, I would make sure to call her daily during those trips to make sure she was alright, but I can't even do that now.
No, I cannot take my grandmother on full-time. Since she cannot handle being around 2 young, active children for a couple of days a week, she certainly cannot handle it 7 days a week. And that's understandable.
As I said, my uncle took her out of her home with the knowledge that they would be caring for her full-time. It was only after both my aunt and grandmother kept calling me and complaining about each other that I offered to help. I know I didn't specify that information in my original post. But please don't make it sound like I agreed to the arrangement prior to her being moved and then went back on my word. Then I could certainly understand why I would appear to be the bad guy and why they would be so mad at me. What do you think of a son whose only solution is for his niece to tell her grandmother to shut up? Nice, huh?
bunnicula,
My uncle and his wife have several dogs, very gentle, not vicious or dangerous at all. However, for that reason, (so I've always been told anyway), my grandmother is not allowed to answer the door, or set foot outside the house. They are supposedly afraid that a dog will slip out the door and get loose. She is only allowed to let the dogs in and out of the back yard to go potty and, as a matter of fact, she is supposedly responsible for their care while my uncle and wife are at work. Also, because of the dogs, they don't want other people inside the house. A couple of years before my grandfather passed away, my grandparents were in a car accident while on their way home from my house. While they recovered, they lived with my uncle and aunt for several weeks. My grandparents wanted to see my kids. So I got permission to do so. But after a couple of weeks, my grandmother told me that my uncle and aunt didn't want me coming over anymore. It was too disturbing to the dogs.
So, no, they will not allow anyone other than my aunt's children (they are always welcome though) in the house. The insurance agent who needed to settle my grandfather's life insurance claim was supposed to hand-deliver the check and go over things with her. I was told to call him up myself and forbid him to go to the house because the guy wouldn't take no for an answer from them.
And there are no other relatives on my mother's side of the family that could intervene. My mother passed away in 1991. My uncle cut off contact with his cousins many, many years ago and I've only heard him refer to them as idiots since. (Which I can assure you, they're not.) He has also not spoken with his own aunts in better than 20 years, although I've been speaking to 1 of them fairly regularly over the years.
As for the unpleasantness, my grandmother has said all she has to do is mention my name and my uncle starts yelling at her. My aunt was supposedly refusing to speak to her when she found out grandma was there to stay for 7 days a week until we worked out a schedule that she felt more comfortable with. (We were considering once a month to start.) She complains about being given the cold shoulder and all the tension there is between them. She says she has tried to discuss matters with them, but they refuse to talk to her about it. She has called me up several times over these last few months to say that my uncle is mad at me, yet she can't tell me why because he won't talk to her about it. And on and on... And I have suggested that she come for a weekend, but she refused the first time and at the last minute my uncle suddenly wouldn't bring her to the party and we weren't given permission to pick her up.
As far as her being denied privileges:
1. She initially claimed my aunt forced her to throw out most of her clothing so my aunt could keep a closet empty for when her children came from out of town to visit.
2. She claimed she wasn't allowed to keep a few of her favorite snack foods in the house because my aunt couldn't make room in her refrigerator or cupboards for a lousy package of cookies.
3. She was forced to throw out many, many family mementos because my aunt didn't want to store all that "junk." Personally, when my aunt was still talking to me, she did refer to my grandmother's stuff as "junk", and that was within the first few weeks of her living there. I was mad at that, and considered it downright disrespectful, but said nothing to keep the peace.
4. She cannot take showers anymore because my uncle has refused to put in a bar that she can hold on to for safety. Why, I don't know. And she cannot take a bath safely. So when I asked her recently how she was bathing, she told me she was just taking sponge baths and trying to wash her hair in the sink.
I've had to intervene with her medical care on a couple of occasions because my uncle and aunt weren't doing anything to help her when she was sick. Like when they sent her to me and you would have had to have been brain dead to not see she was ill. She was as white as a sheet, and I later had to pick her up off the floor. I took her to the doctor the next day. I couldn't believe they would send her to me in that condition! She became ill right after my grandfather died and the medication the doctor gave her didn't agree with her. My aunt insisted that her father took that same medication and it did him just fine so there was no reason my grandmother shouldn't be taking it. Well, I called the doctor myself, told him of what she was experiencing, he agreed she was having a bad reaction to it, prescribed something else, and she was just fine after that.
I would like very much to work it out without making things worse. Personally, I think she should be in an independent facility where she is not forced to be alone all day. When she called me yesterday, she told me that she had just fallen on the kitchen floor and had a little difficulty getting back up. This really alarms me! She might be deteriorating physically. She's told me she doesn't even weigh 100 lbs. anymore! And they have no right to keep us apart if she doesn't want that. She should have the freedom to see other people and talk to other people, not be a caretaker for a bunch of dogs. She has to go up and down stairs to let the dogs in and out several times a day, and she's told me it's becoming too difficult for her.
Yet, despite all this, I can honestly say that I believe they are trying to feed her well, and they are certainly not taking any physical actions against her. I'd say the pain is more emotional, a stripping of her rights and dignity, as well as her independence.
KatyD,
You know, I'm not certain what to believe. Because my uncle and I had a very fine dialogue going about a year ago. It appeared at the time that many of her complaints about them might have been unfounded and/or exaggerated. I was tell him about something she said and his explanation of events make it seem like she was being unreasonable. He even told me that she was supposedly complaining about me to them, yet he was unable to give me any specifics when I asked for them. At that time, he was getting mad at her and said that she was playing games or something and it was going to stop. Earlier this year, her complaining about them had gotten so bad, (she wouldn't even wait until my uncle had driven away after dropping her off) that I'd even told her that I didn't want to hear about them anymore, I was getting tired of it, and that I was beginning to not believe her anymore. I've been upset since Monday, but I've wondered myself what she might have been saying about me to have caused this. Her telling me that she doesn't want to come over each weekend could very easily reach their ears as "She won't let me come over anymore." And of course, that could lead them to hanging up on me without giving me a chance to explain and so on and so forth.
The really stupid, ironic thing is that my aunt on my father's side (not the one being discussed here) is a senior nurse at a nursing home about an hour from my house. She gave me all the information I needed in case my grandmother needed to be put someplace in a hurry without having to go on a waiting list. (I guess relatives of staff get some privileges.) I gave the information to my grandmother after I was hung up on the first time and implored her to give it to them in case of any urgent need. But she said she didn't want to go that far away. She was insistent on trying to get into the place right down the street from me and I couldn't even get her to consider shopping around to compare.
So she might be playing the victim here more than I realize, but if that's the case, she's only aligned them so much against me that I'm not even in a position to help in any capacity anymore.
The main thing holding me back from going through official channels are my children. They're home for the summer and they have to come first. I have to be available for them, not dragging my grandmother around trying to find a place for her to live and wondering how the finances are going to work if my uncle won't talk to me and he has control of her finances and power-of-attorney over her health care. And my son will only be starting preschool in September for a couple of hours a day 3 days a week. So although my daughter will be in 1st grade, I'd still have my son home practically all of the time.
And if I have made mistakes through all of this, I'd surely like to know what they are so I can try to apologize and/or set the record straight in case we've both been misinformed about things. Because I do still care and I do have the means to get her into a nursing facility, even if only for respite care, if it's needed. (My uncle and aunt have no blood relation to my other aunt, so they couldn't do it without me.)
Edited to add: I haven't seen my grandmother since February. The last time I saw her, she was able to be left alone all day. It was yesterday when she called me and told me about the fall. It's possible that she does need more watching over now, I don't know. And, unfortunately, I don't know how I could have someone in that condition here on a permanent basis and properly be available for my children.
posted on July 11, 2001 05:13:34 PM new
You just might *have* to call in Protective Services. The situation at your uncle's house doesn't sound healthy. While I sympathize about you're aving to be available for your children, it may well behoove you to ask other mothers who also stay at home to care for their kids to give you a hand so that you can look into alternate housing for your grandmother. You can do much of the preliminary research by phone or PC while your kids are napping or playing. This is the woman you say you lived with for most of your growing-up years & she surely deserves the time being spent on her.
posted on July 11, 2001 05:21:42 PM newBJ-Thanks for the update. Do any of the other relatives have concerns about your grandmother and the care she's getting?
As suggested, perhaps you should share your concerns with some of them.
I don't know what state you live in, but I am from Texas. I have dealt with the APS personally. About 5 years ago, I had my attention pointed in the direction of an elderly lady (mentally & physically infirmed) who had seemingly been abandoned by her daughter for more than a week. The daughter lived with her and had for years.
The neighbor who called me, didn't want to get involved. I went to check on the woman and found her with no food and no utilities! It was August! No water, no electricity, no telephone, nothing! The daughter had left on a Friday telling her mother she would be back on Sunday. She had to have know the utilities were about to be disconnected and that there was no food in the house! That had been the week before! When I called APS I was asked what I could do! Yep, seems they really don't have a lot of resources (at least not here). I ended up with this woman in my home for a month. I filed a missing person on the daughter thinking something had happened to her, not believing anyone could do this to another human being. I got a hold of her other daughter who lived in another state and was told "don't bother me"! I ended up having all the woman's utilities turned on (at my expense) and found another woman willing to help with "watching" after this woman and taking turns doing the bill paying and grocery shopping! Notice all the I's? What help did we get? APS would call and check on how "we were doing" once a month! That's it! After 6 months the daughter came back home and moved right back in the house as though she had never been gone! No explanation as to where she had been or why she had not bothered to once, in all that time, call to check on her mother! I was floored! Especially when APS closed the file because the daughter was now home!!!!!!
So, if you go that route, don't be surprised if nothing comes of it other than to be asked what you can do about it!
Good Luck with what ever route you choose to take.
posted on July 11, 2001 05:42:30 PM new
I guess I don't understand why a woman who is supposedly in good mental health and in fair physical health is "taken" out of her house by the uncle and he has control of her money and power of attorney.
Does she just abdicate all decisions? Was she one of these wives that had everything done for her by the husband when he was alive so she wants someone to hold her hand now?
When you keep some one in a locked house and won't allow them phone or mail contact or even allow business contacyt such as with the insurance mman it is called false imprisonment.
She might as well be in a closet.
You are only obligated to take her in as the alternative if you don't have the guts to say no. Sounds like the Uncle has all the talent in the family for that.
posted on July 11, 2001 05:59:03 PM new
BJ, I think that you have to have a talk with your uncle. From what you've said, it doesn't sound like you are getting the full story, either from your grandmother or your aunt and uncle. What has happened to your grandmother's friends? Surely they must be wondering about not being able to visit her or see her in her normal social interactions. Before your grandfather died, didn't they have friends, go to church, play bingo, or participate in other social activities? If what your grandmother is saying is true about her living situation (at Aunt & Uncles), it is extremely unhealthy for her to be socially isolated as she claims to be. Also, gravid makes some good points. What is your grandmother's financial situation. Was her house sold when she moved in with aunt and uncle? What about the proceeds? Does she get a monthly retirement stipend in addition to social security, and what about the insurance proceeds? Is an assisted living facility or senior apartment complex where she can socialize with others her age and interests be an option? Why would your aunt and uncle object to exploring that possibility? Of course, if there IS money involved and what your grandmother is saying is true, perhaps it is control over your grandmother's pocket book (and assets) that may be the reason for your aunt's and uncle's insistence upon total control of her life. IF they truly are restricting her. Regardless, you definitely need to have a heart to heart discussion with your uncle without your grandmother present and hear his side of the story, and also tell him yours. Most large cities have senior service organizations that are not tied to law enforcement departments such as APS. A start might be a visit or a call to a local Senior Center to talk to an advisor or to find out if there is some kind of mediating service that you can use to get to the bottom of this mess. I don't mean to cast aspersions on your grandmother's veracity, but I just don't think you, or perhaps your aunt and uncle, or getting the whole story of what is really going on.
I suppose I can come up with some alternate resources for support. My husband might be able to get time off here and there. His company is pretty good about stuff like that. Also, I do have some stay-at-home mom neighbors. I'm just generally not too sociable, not that we're not friendly, but we're not buddy-buddy. It's kind of an intimate thing to ask for help for. My in-laws are retired and they're certainly aware of the situation and they have some older folks in assisted living right now themselves. My nurse aunt at the nursing home only works 2 days a week and she certainly might know of a mountain of resources from being in the profession.
And my pastor and his wife might know of some good resources out there.
So far, my nurse aunt and my in-laws think I should just leave them alone to work it out themselves. They've got a lot more experience than me with older folks and they both rather suspect that I've been fed stories that aren't entirely true and vice versa. In other words, that my grandmother has been enjoying playing victim and that she never intended to cause a rift but here it is and now everyone's all upset.
But even if I couldn't believe a word any of them said, the fact remains that blocking me from being able to call is a pretty serious matter. I'll swear to all of you that I've never made any harassing phone calls to them or done anything I can think of to warrant it.
sulyn1950,
It's unfortunate, but while there is concern, I am being told to stay out of it, or I might cause more trouble for myself and my family. As far as the number of relatives other than myself and the uncle and aunt she's living with:
1. My grandmother has 2 sisters, both of whom are around her age, and remember she's 81. The oldest lives alone and is having health problems of her own, but is doing her darndest to stay independent. The other sister also lives alone, but I've heard that she is also beginning to fail, and not just physically. None of them are in any condition to be of any help.
2. My grandmother has a brother who lives in Pennsylvania who is a widower who, last I heard, had just recently started a relationship with a nice woman. He's very seldom in town.
3. She has no other living children besides my uncle.
4. I am an only child, so I have no siblings of my own to turn to.
5. I spoke with one of my uncle's cousins about the matter last night, and he also said it was all out of my hands and unless they wanted to work it out with me, there is nothing I can do.
Basically, years ago, in the household I grew up in with my grandparents and my mother and my uncle, they systematically shut out the rest of the world. The supposed reasons for that are too numerous and complicated to go into here. Last year I took it upon myself to try and re-establish those lost connections with great success and have now expanded my extended family exponentially. Most of those "lost" relatives are on my father's side, but a few are from my mother's (and grandmother's side). But you know they say, what goes around comes around. They're hard-pressed to have sympathy or want to help people who could have cared less about them all these years and actively shut them out of their lives. They have all the sympathy and love and caring for me and my husband and children, but not for those who couldn't be bothered to give them the time of day. And to set the record straight, I was a child when they were shut out of my life, so none of them hold a grudge against me for that. There is nothing for forgive as far as they're concerned, they're just glad to have me back. (And it all had to do with parents divorcing, just so you understand the basic poison behind the bad feelings.) My uncle's cousins even wanted to pay their respects when my grandfather passed away, but they were told they weren't welcome. So they have no interest in being of any help to anyone but me.
Another sad thing is that my children don't nap anymore!
gravid,
I'm sure that you're about to get flamed for your comments, but not from me. You have it exactly right!
My grandfather was my grandmother's life. As long as she had him, the rest of the world could have gone to hell in a handbasket. She could have cared less about establishing any sort of relationship with her neighbors (hey, I might be borderline antisocial, but at least I talk to mine once in awhile and know some of their names) and was perfectly content to gradually withdraw into an antisocial existence in their house until she had him and only him and me while I still lived there.
So, when he died she was devestated and totally helpless. According to her, she doesn't even balance her checkbook, although I know she was perfectly capable of it before because she had to do it during my grandfather's short stints in the hospital. So, yes. My aunt and uncle totally control her, bodily and financially. This was all done within hours and within the first week of my grandfather's passing. I had virtually no input in any of the decisions made, but am being "punished" or whatever, because I finally "had the guts" to say "No", to these continuous weekend visits.
Sometimes I feel the fool for continuing to care...
I thank those of you who've responded so far. It's been difficult to air the dirty laundry like this. I'll be signing off for awhile now, so if I don't repond to anyone else tonight, please don't think I'm ignoring the posts. I'll be back online tomorrow.
posted on July 11, 2001 06:09:18 PM new
BJ, looks like we were crossposting. So now I understand about the lack of your grandmother's friends or social life. If your uncle grew up with this social isolation, I can see where he would not see your grandmother's living situation as out of the norm. I hope it works out for you. Your other relatives may have the best advice for you in telling you to let them work it out for themselves. After all, your first responsibility is to your OWN family now, and they need to come first.
I saw your post just as I was about to turn in, so I'll try to fill in a little.
As I posted just above, my grandmother had no friends, no social life at all. They turned their back on church in all its forms long before I was born because of 1 bad experience. My grandmother stayed in the house all day either doing housework or doing nothing during my grandfather's working years. After he retired, nothing much changed. My grandmother left the house to go grocery shopping once a week and to have her hair done every other week. That's it. She didn't talk to the neighbors. The only people she talked to were my grandfather and myself on any regular basis and my uncle and aunt of course, when they called. They had no friends, no social life of any kind to speak of.
My grandfather didn't make much money and they lived from check to check. The only money she has set aside is the life insurance payout and a small award from the car accident they were in. Altogether it's less than $30,000. She gets $1000 a month Social Security. They rented their entire life, so there wasn't even any money from the sale of assets because there were no assets.
And when I've mentioned that she might be happier at a facility where she'd be with people her own age who share her concerns and she could participate in the activities, she flatly says she wouldn't want anything to do with the activities.
Sometimes no matter how much someone sounds like they need help, you just can't do anything because they don't let you.
And APS did tell me that they wouldn't be able to enforce anything anyway. All they would do is try and mediate to get their side of the story and come to some sort of resolution. They wouldn't be able to force my aunt and uncle to let her see me.
Maybe if she's telling tall tales on both sides, maybe I'm better off not getting involved.
I guess another option would be to send a letter without my return address, typed envelope, so forth. That way he'd start reading it a bit before realizing it was from me and maybe a catch phrase or two might grab his attention long enough for him to make it to the end before throwing it away?
posted on July 11, 2001 06:27:55 PM new
Yup this very controlling Uncle obviously has to have it all or nothing with the visits.
I am wondering if you are from an eastern culture or a different religeous group where the outside world was viewed with suspicion.
Whatever the reason you are not going to make them change how they have become accustomed to living for their whole lives.
You offered an accomadation that would satisfy everyone to a degree. If they are too stuborn to accept what they can get without caring how it effects you I would not feel guilty at all. Your needs have to be considered also. It's like - "What am I chopped liver?" - NO.
I really don't have much advice to offer you, other than for you to let her know you love her.
Please remember also that you do not know what is being said in that house - perhaps your grandmother complained about how hard it was to be around your children.
It does seem to me, though that you are in a no win situation. Darned if you do, darned if you don't.
Elderly people tend to twist things to get what they want. Believe me, I know
posted on July 11, 2001 08:40:58 PM new
I'd call APS.
Keeping you from calling her. Destroying mail before she gets it. These are things parents do to an errant teenager - these are not things people do to an adult. At the least, they're destroying her dignity - they might be doing worse things that you don't know about.
posted on July 12, 2001 05:29:20 AM new
Actually, I don't believe our ethnic background would come into play with the isolated lifestyle. My uncle, grandmother, and I are all American born and raised. My grandfather was born in Wales. He always enjoyed being around people, but my grandmother didn't. But my grandfather did believe in keeping personal family troubles within the 4 walls of the household regardless of how serious they might be. No outsiders involved in personal family business you might say was his motto.
When my uncle hooked up with my aunt, his social life improved dramatically. They had a huge party for their wedding and afterwards, their home was like an open house. People generally came and went as they pleased, including myself and my mother when she was alive. They were always going out to dinner with friends, etc. They were not reclusive at all. Now, according to my grandmother, they have no social life at all. They stay home every evening and spend the weekends out shopping and/or doing household chores. So what happened to turn them from social butterflies into recluses, I have no idea. They are in their early to mid-50s.
When my grandmother initally started calling me back in March, she wanted me to come up with some sort of visitation schedule immediately. This was difficult to do, as she had just visited that last weekend and we hadn't had a break from each other at all yet. And it was right after my aunt had hung up on me. I explained that we had both agreed that we needed a break and trying to start up visitation again right away wouldn't give us that. All I kept hearing from her was how mad they were at me after that, but they wouldn't open a discussion about it, according to her. Finally, in May, she claimed that things were beginning to calm down around there and they were actually getting along quite well. So I invited her to visit and she said no, she'd better not. She didn't want to cause trouble. Then, the other opportunity came with my son's party and that got blown.
posted on July 12, 2001 09:35:59 AM new
It kinda sounds like your uncle is saying it's his way or no way. In other words, since you won't have her every weekend you won't get to see her at all.
That is just sad.
Maybe you can talk to him somehow and tell him why you and your grandmother decided she would not come every week. Perhaps he will soften, especially if you come to him with a workable schedule or an offer to take her whenever they need to go away for awhile. That way he wins - and so do you.
I am sorry for your pain in this - sometimes people can just be so mean.
posted on July 12, 2001 10:22:58 AM new
My grandmother was in a similiar situation. They was nothing wrong with her mentally or physically either that would keep her from taking care of herself. Sometimes you just have to be "tough" on the very person you are trying to help out.
My grandmother seriously needed to get away from the household, but she wouldn't go. She did finally leave and get a place of her own to live, but it took forever.
It sounds to me like holding her there against her will, and being told what to do and what not to do. No one has to put up with that.
I know this is going to sound awful, but have you ever thought about just driving over when your aunt and uncle are not home. And saying something like this-- "Okay grandmother, if you are that miserable, maybe it is time for you to move out. Let's go pack your things and we will move you into a facility where you can live the way YOU want to live, and see the people YOU want to see, when YOU want to." -- All she can say is no, and then that should give you some clue as to whether or not it is truly as bad as it seems. If it is, she should want to leave....if it is not, then you will at least know that maybe she is just playing a little cat and mouse between relatives.
I know this post sounds awful, but I am all for the direct approach. You can walk right into it and get it over with or beat around bush until she dies of old age...the choice is yours.
It sounds as if your husband will back you 100%. Thats good, take him with you when you go talk her. At least you aren't alone.
posted on July 12, 2001 12:03:41 PM new
I finally heard from my grandmother this morning. It's a good thing, because I'd called my husband's uncle, who happens to be an attorney, for advice. I asked him if he thought that my writing a letter to them trying to work things out might be a possible avenue before doing something more drastic. He said I could certainly try it, but he urged me to get the APS involved anyway. He even told me there is enough to warrant calling the police directly. I didn't give him anything but the facts (being hung up on twice, my line being blocked, my grandmother telling me this was all against her wishes) and he feels that they are interfering with her rights and she needs to get out of there.
My grandmother never did confront them about the situation. She lost the courage, so she never told them she knew about the line being blocked. She's trying desperately to avoid alienating my uncle, because she says that she's being treated fine in every other way. But she still insists she's going to do something about it. She was relieved to hear that she can move out if she wants to without having to have my uncle's "permission" to get into independent living. And also that he can't just clean her accounts out and leave her with nothing to live on. Not without coming under legal fire, anyway. She even wondered about getting a cell phone so I could call her. We're going to work on that angle. (Of course, I'd call her and tell her to call me back on the regular phone so she wouldn't get her minutes used up.)
She also told me that there was no good reason he couldn't bring her to my son's party. They were gone for a whole hour that day. She's very sorry now that she didn't let me send my husband for her.
We've worked out a little plan between the two of us. She's going to tell my uncle that she wants to come to our house this Saturday (in 2 days) at 4:00 PM. If he refuses to bring her, she's going to tell him that either myself or my husband will come to pick her up. If they say we're not allowed on their property, she will tell them that we will park on the street in front of their house and she will walk out the front door and walk to our van herself. They have no legal right to prevent us from parking on a public street, or to physically prevent my grandmother from walking out the door to meet us if she chooses to.
I said that if something came up and she couldn't make it (like an illness or something), she could call it off. But if we kept setting up these little "appointments" and things keep "coming up" to prevent it, then I will involve the authorities. Also, if we're there on the street waiting for her at the appointed time and she doesn't come out after awhile (provided I didn't hear from her not to come), we'll leave and I will call the authorities.
I told her that even if my uncle and aunt want nothing further to do with me, that's their right. But they don't have the right to speak for her at this time, since she's still mentally capable. We're really not trying to cause them trouble, just trying to protect her rights to see my family and my family's right to see her at my home. I've never insisted on barging into their home for visitation.
jwoodcrafts,
You know, I was going to suggest that I could drive over there with my kids this afternoon just so she could give me my anniversary card. (And give the kids a kiss, of course.) But I forgot to bring it up and, of course, I can't call her back. To get my husband involved, he would have to take off work and I'm not sure he'd be willing to do that unless he knew for sure she wanted to leave and we needed help getting her things out.
She just doesn't want to believe at this point that they won't let her see me again, and I hope she's right. It was actually her suggestion about this Saturday. And it will be the only thing that will really prove to her whether or not they intend to let her see us.
She even asked my permission to tell them tonight that we know I can't call her. I said, Don't you think they already know that I know? Do you think they really believe that I haven't tried to call you since June 18th? Honestly, she really hadn't thought it through. But she must be getting a little bit more "with it" to be able to think of a cell phone. I don't even have a cell phone. I told her that I'd thought of getting one for myself to call her, but I was afraid about a message from me being on the answering machine. And she swears that there's no button that says "Play", but there is one that says "New Message", so I don't know if that would be what she'd need to press to play the message before hitting the "Erase" button. And I wouldn't want them getting an unlisted number and refusing to tell my grandmother her "new" phone number. Then no one would be able to call her. (She talked to her 1 sister just yesterday, and her brother called, but I doubt she mentioned anything about the situation to her brother.) She said if that happened, she'd start looking for a new place immediately.
It sounds as though your grandmother also didn't want to accept the facts of her situation. They're so afraid of rocking the boat and they don't want to believe that the people that are caring for them could have anything but their best interests at heart. But that's not always so.
I'm wondering what finally convinced your grandmother to go? If you're willing to share and don't want to post it here, you can email me at [email protected] If you'd rather not speak of it further, I fully understand and appreciate what you have shared.
posted on July 12, 2001 01:11:08 PM new
I would rather not go into a lot details. But I believe if you use the "direct approach" and lay it on the line, you will find out exactly where everyone stands. Then you can take it from there.
If she really needs out of the house, then with your help, she will leave. If you go when only she is at home, there will no one to stop her. I don't believe your uncle will have any legal right to come and make her return to his house. If she puts you off, then at least you will know that maybe all is not as bad as you have been led to believe.
Regardless of the outcome, you will have the peace of mind to know that you have honestly done all you can do in the situation, and then you can get on with your life.
Remember this....there is no way he can (legally) make her stay...but there is also no way you can make her go.
Do what you can, but remember in the end, it will be HER decision.
Just let her know that if it is her decision to leave, then you will be there to help her....even if you have to bring the police to help you.
posted on July 12, 2001 02:00:03 PM new
Thank you, jwoodcrafts, for giving your perspective on this.
I have no wish to force my grandmother to do anything she isn't comfortable with. I think one basic problem she is having with this is that she wants us all to just get along and work this out amicably, which I am certainly willing to do. But neither she nor I can do anything about how my uncle and aunt might feel about that or how they wish to react to it.
If you're all interested, I'll keep you posted on what happens this Saturday. If not, then I'll keep my peace.
posted on July 12, 2001 10:18:46 PM new
krs has the correct solution...go to a payphone and call anytime you wish. I really do not see the problem, other than you seem to have inherited the family gene for overdramatizing every little thing! I am not saying this to be mean, but your posts always seem so sensible and helpful, which doesn't gel with this near hysterical rendition of your family problem. You may be unwittingly or unintentionally feeding into the problem. If the answering machine picks up, hang up. If grandma truly has all her faculties, tell her to have a private phone installed. If she wants to come visit, she can ask to be picked up, or even call a cab.
If, instead, you think she is making up stories about every relative she knows just to have a little excitement in her life, and is deteriorating physically, call your state's Elder Abuse hotline (anonymous if you must)and they will check on her well-being. You might also call your county's Public Administrator, who could be court appointed to act as legal guardian for her if she is found to be incompetent and you are unwilling serve in this capacity. They can fill you in on their services and the legal steps that might be initiated. (From the sound of it, you should probably NOT act in this capacity, or have her live with you, as she would definitely cause problems in your home too! Your children and husband must come first.)
What I have read lets me know that you feel pretty guilty about the whole situation, but are also aware that all the family infighting is silly and unproductive. If necessary, a legally appointed guardian could make sure her housing is arranged and that will deflect any accusation of improper financial management/mistreatment. Either you must take action or remind her that she is capable of making her own decisions and dealing with the consequences.
posted on July 13, 2001 05:41:52 AM new
Thanks MrsSantaClaus, I will.
And, joyz412e, I'll try not to be overly dramatic next time.
I thank you for the compliment about my posts usually being more calm and rational. It's easy for me when I'm not the one with the difficulties.
I can't run to a payphone at will with 2 young children at home. I'd get my own cell phone first. Their answering machine is always on to screen calls (as is mine, nothing unusual about that) and my grandmother absolutely will not answer their phone unless she hears my voice on the machine. Besides, even if she was willing, she couldn't get to the phone fast enough to pick up before the machine kicks in. I'm not trying to be dramatic or hysterical here , just stating the facts as I know them. That's why we're trying the plan I've already outlined and if I can have her over tomorrow through Sunday evening, there will be plenty of time to take her out to get her a cell phone.
Thank you also for your insight. Yes, I do feel somewhat guilty wondering what I might have done that was so terrible. I told my grandmother that I can't very well atone for any mistakes if no one will open a dialogue with me. She insists I've done nothing wrong as far as she's concerned.
I appreciate the information you've given about having a neutral 3rd party become responsible. I certainly don't need anyone thinking that I'm trying to muscle in on her care and be the boss. My obligation to them comes first. But I do feel some sort of obligation to not just turn my back and say the heck with all of them without trying other avenues first.
Thank you everyone. It's nice to know there are so many caring people out there. That's why I stay here at AW.
Edited to add: I meant to say my obligation to my kids comes first, not them. I started typing one thing, then backed up and changed it, but I messed up.
posted on July 15, 2001 05:28:03 AM new
Tomorrow I'm calling Adult Protective Services.
I picked up my grandmother yesterday as we'd prearranged. When I arrived, my uncle came out of the house to move a lawnmower and completely ignored me, no problem with that. But I watched as my 81 year old grandmother struggled to get out of the house, trying to open the outer door, close the inner door to keep the dogs back, and put her bags outside one by one. My uncle has always carried her bags for her because they're heavy, but he gave her no help yesterday and actually walked right by her as though she wasn't even there. She had to get her bags out by herself and walk down the driveway with them unassisted. I was afraid to get out of my van with my uncle outside, I'm ashamed to say. She had also gestured to me from an upstairs window that I was to stay put. So I knew there'd already been trouble before I'd arrived. (I didn't bring my husband along because I didn't want my kids present in case there was any unpleasantness.)
She told me on the drive over to my house that my aunt literally started screaming at her, not yelling, screaming. My aunt said she was a d**n fool for coming to my house, that I was a bi*ch and that I was trying to break up the family. Now that's a real joke, I think. I've never called their home yelling and then hanging up, or hung up when anyone there has called me, or put a block on their number so they can't call my home. Then my aunt supposedly ran outside, said something to my uncle (but my grandmother doesn't know what) and then my uncle went in the house and started screaming at my grandmother, although he'd supposedly been fine on Friday with her coming to my home this weekend. She asked him if he was going to help her with the bags and he told her not to tell him what to do in his house and that's when he came outside after I'd arrived.
Even if I wasn't sure I could trust all this hearsay, I witnessed for myself the total neglect in helping her yesterday when my uncle knows full well she could use help with her bags. If he hadn't been outside, I would have gotten out and helped her. I nearly did, I had my door partway open but she was already halfway down the drive on the last trip, so I just opened the passenger door and collected the rest of her things from her and helped her inside.
She asked if she was going to be allowed to come back tonight (Sunday) and they refused to tell her. I said, well, if they refuse to let you in, then they're throwing you out and they're going to get in trouble for that too, I'll make sure of that! Then we'll return with the police to retrieve her belongings and take things from there. She told my uncle that it looked like she'd better move out and he said Good!
First, they're mad because she didn't want to come for awhile, then when she decides to come, that's not alright either. Go figure.
posted on July 15, 2001 06:36:11 AM new
Silly short sighted selfish people who never grew up. Got a ton of 'em in the world who can't figure out why they don't have friends.
I won't accomadate them just because they are relatives. I have relative s I ahve not seen in decades. No loss at all as they are the same manipulative sort. Want to tell you you HAVE to let them stink up your living room with a cigar etc, because they are blood. Bah.
) hung up on me without giving me a chance to speak.
