Do you agree with KRS and think that Joe Lee Gibson is an "Uncle Tom"?
Or do you simply see him as a poor ignorant black man too stupid to know he is unhappy?
<end quote>
I do not know Joe Lee Gibson. You are the only poster who has used the word ignorant. Illiteracy is certainly not an indicator of intelligence. It simply indicates that nobody has taken the time to teach you how to read or write.
Of course we have no way to know how "happy" Joe Gibson may be. Nobody but Joe Gibson knows this. And, we don't know that he is an "Uncle Tom"
either. The fact that he gets along with the people who are oppressing him is sometimes perceived that way, but it's not always the case.
He has apparently impressed the people who decided to give this award. My point is that he deserved this attention years ago.
posted on July 11, 2001 05:54:21 PM new
"And, we don't know that he is an "Uncle Tom"
either. The fact that he gets along with the people who are oppressing him is sometimes perceived that way, but it's not always the case. "
Do you perceive him that way?
"He has apparently impressed the people who decided to give this award."
Yes he has. Too bad there are those here who are not equally impressed and would seek to belittle the award because it was not "timely" enough to suit them.
Furthermore, he is not "Poor Mr. Gibson". I doubt he wants, needs or would even appreciate your pity.
I believe that any man who has endured the kind of oppression and poverty that a black man in Mississippi is subject to deserves our respect and kindness. That is why I referred to Mr. Gibson as poor Mr. Gibson. I did not intend any condescention or lack of respect.
I am one of the few people on this board who are right square dab in Mr Gibson's corner.
I have lived in Mississippi and I know exactly what he has experienced. I know about the crummy schools and segregation.
posted on July 11, 2001 06:56:13 PM new
Funny but I thought that Mr. Gibson has had his job since 1936. His father worked at the college and got his son the job.
Joe's own child said that he gave them anything they wanted. He paid to send his kids to college. He doesn't sound oppressed or poverty stricken to me.
But then the stereotype that any black person living in Mississippi is automatically oppressed is basically a discriminatory concept.
Anytime a person or group of people are sterotyped and lumped into one description then ignorance is allowed to flourish.
posted on July 11, 2001 07:04:09 PM new
I've read the article, this thread and the locked thread, and I'm agreeing with Helen: It's racism--of a more subtle and saccharine variety than we may be used to up north, but racism nonetheless.
Joe Lee Gibson is an exemplar for the "old, good" [______][fieldhand/wet nurse] -- compliant, obsequious, never asking anything, staying in his place (to wit, refusing promotions)--which means "knowing his place," doesn't it? Joe Lee Gibson lived his own life, and an admirable, honest and upstanding life it surely seems to be, by any standard. He doesn't deserve a label like "Tom" for being a good man. No, leave Joe alone, and think about what is behind the detail in this piece: "There's pride in Gibson's appearance as well. Greeting a campus visitor on a hot spring morning, he's wearing a crisp, beige work shirt, clean blue jeans and an Atlanta Braves baseball cap that looked as if it had been polished and waxed. He's thin-waisted and barely bent at the shoulders. As sharp and flawless as the grounds he grooms." Clean. Polished. Waxed. Is he a man or a side table? How generous the praise, how reductive, how patronizing.
The real point of the piece can be found in this line: "He doesn't understand people who don't want to work." Just stops short of citing him as a credit to.... I'll look for his face on the dais at the White House when the next round of welfare cuts is announced.
posted on July 11, 2001 07:08:33 PM new
When did you last live in MS Helen? I was under the impression you moved to DC as a child.
even though the circumstances were similar to Mr. Gibson's.
My dad worked in the cotton field as a kid. He missed so much school that he was held back twice. He reads only a little...not well enough to write me a letter from prison. He does dictate to another inmate who writes me regularly and my dad signs his name. I would have taught him to read. He said he couldn't learn. He might have dyslexia. He went to an adult class for a few weeks, was so frustrated that he dropped out.
At the risk of repeating a story that I have told before, my mother was Salautorian of her high school class. She was 18, I was three. I remember her giving her speech. I am the first on my family to attend college by working and paying my own way, junior college then Millsaps.
I am not ashamed of my family. Not ahsamed of my heritage. I am not ashamed of my state.
I know Joe Lee. He is happier than ANYONE who posts on AW. Would you tell him his life is no good?
T
posted on July 11, 2001 07:08:56 PM new
With this post I am out of here. I know better than to try to change the mind of people bent upon noble indignation over issues they make up in their own minds.
I hope you all feel smug with your final analysis of Joe's life. Instead of honoring a man for 60+ years of service, you brand him an Uncle Tom. For shame.
I really don't see how anyone could say with any degree of certainty that this man is an "Uncle Tom." You certainly are fixated on the question but I really have no answer.
I would guess that in order to get along so well with these people that he would have to use a number of coping skills among which might be the appearance of acceptance of white values.
posted on July 11, 2001 07:48:17 PM new"What are 'white values'?"
I'm not sure what Hjw's definition might be, but when I read her post a "recollection" popped into my head:
A woman who was probably in her late 60's made the comment to me, after we had finished a causual conversation with a verrry elderly black man, "I just love to talk to the older blacks...they are so polite with their yes ma'ams and no ma'ams, too bad the younger ones aren't like that".
The sad part is she really did not seem to recognize it as an insult. She was being genuine! I, too, have found myself particularly fond of talking to this man for many of the same reasons. He is so "genteel"....and at the risk of sounding racial, he dresses very spiffy! He wears a suit AND hat. Don't see much of that around anymore either, from ANYONE. Of course, I say yes ma'am and no ma'am too, just about everyone my generation (around these parts) do, and I have to admit NOT many of our "youngers" do that anymore. Be they pink, purple or poka dotted! Please and thank you are falling by the wayside also!
May come a time when it is just us "olders" who still have "polite" manners!
I know Joe Lee. He is happier than ANYONE who posts on AW. Would you tell him his life is no good?
<end quote>
Of course not...I am focused on the racists who are responsible for his lost opportunity to learn how to read and write...the people who employed him as a handyman while people his age were attending classes on the same campus. Can you imagine how this made him feel?
I question how anybody could really be happy under such circumstances.
But, grin and bear it...I guess we have all done this occasionally but not to this degree, for eighty six years.
posted on July 11, 2001 08:02:49 PM new
That's a generational thing. My grandfather who passed away in December at 88 wore a coat and tie and a starched shirt every day even though he was retired for almost 20 years. He was always dressed immaculately and that's one of the nice ways I remember him.
The "yes ma'ams and sirs", particularly among elderly black Southerners are a different story from what I understand although I can be corrected if I am wrong.
posted on July 11, 2001 08:05:24 PM newI would guess that in order to get along so well with these people that he would have to use a number of coping skills among which might be the appearance of acceptance of white values.
Oh, brother. This about a man who was so "oppressed" that he stayed with the same job for 65 years...so adept with "coping skills" that he refused easier jobs when they were offered to him to stay a groundsman/custodian. Who, in order to have the "appearance of accepting white values" gave all his children "everything" when they were growing up & forced them all to attend college.
Yep, just makes you want to cry. This poor man kept a job for 65 years & even has the nerve to be proud of both his accomplishments & the place he has tended for all those years.
posted on July 11, 2001 08:47:01 PM newJames-That's just what popped in my head upon reading the post.
Yes, the suits/hats are very much an "older" generation thing for some. My dad was a "bluecollar" and never wore a suit except to funerals! He never owned a hat! Just wasn't his thing. However, from my personal observation of folks around here, it is the older black men who still wear the suits and hats. It could be just us. We're not very progressive around here.
As to the ma'ams and sirs...It is just the way we talk around here (again-my generation) but we do have those who seem to expect it from some more than others.
edited so nobody would think my Daddy was blue!
[ edited by sulyn1950 on Jul 11, 2001 08:53 PM ]
posted on July 11, 2001 08:49:43 PM new"yes ma'ams and sirs", particularly among elderly black Southerners are a different story
James, I do. My children do. My friends do. their children do. It's common courtesy to show respect for anyone more than slightly older than yourself. I say it to blacks as well as whites. That is what I was taught here in this oppressed ignorant illiterate state.
Older men of all races sometimes say it to women no matter their age. I have never had an older woman of any race say it to me in return because that isn't the rule.
I am "Miss Terri" to all my friends children and their moms are Miss Kimberly and Miss Gaylyn, etc. You would be only "James" until you are married and have children, then you would suddenly become "Mr. James".
It isn't always required at home. I don't say it to my mom in private for instance and my children don't say it to me every time. (If they are showing blatent disrespect, then we say, "Yes, what?!" and they immediately say, "Yes mam/sir" as an acknowledgment that they have changed their tune.)
Just explaining what may be unfamiliar to your area.
T
When I was 24 I was still taking classes at Millsaps. I would be in class and I might think (I was married so only think with admiration for beauty and nothing more.) "Gosh, he's kinda' cute." about an 19 year old guy in my class...then then he would say "Yes'mam" to me and I would go "UHGGGGGGG." and want to crawl under the desk. There is a down side. But, I am over it now.
~and I can't spell illiterate, LOL.
[ edited by jt on Jul 11, 2001 09:25 PM ]
posted on July 11, 2001 09:05:03 PM newWrong. Not condescending.
Well, yes, it is. Think about it--you & a few others here (& probably many elsewhere) totally negate the man's accomplishments and harp on how "racist" the college & newsreport are, how "sad" his life must have been, and make suppositions on how *you* believe *he* should feel about his life & employers...all merely because he is black.
Being illiterate for 86 years is sad. Yes it is.
As a bookaholic & librarian, I agree that being illiterate is sad. But obviously that one fact isn't central to Mr. Gibson's existence and it is condescending to focus on that & ignore all the wonderful things he's had in life: a wife & children he obviously loves & for whom he has moved mountains, and a job he ovbiously loves & is proud of. You make it sound as if he's been totally deprived of the good things in life when in fact that isn't the case.
I don't agree. By criticising the newspaper article and the college
administration, I have not negated Joe Gibson's accomplishments.
What is central to Mr Gibson's life is unknown to me and to you. The fact that I believe the ability to read and write will enhance anyone's existance does not indicate a negative attitude toward Mr. Gibson as you infer. You are dead wrong!
You have a right to express your opinion, as does every other member of AW. Telling someone their opinion is dead wrong violates the CG requirement that you treat your fellow AW members with respect and consideration.
Please keep this in mind as you continue to post. Thanks for your cooperation.
posted on July 11, 2001 10:13:02 PM newpattaylor: actually, I myself didn't find HJW's statement that I was "dead wrong" either disrepectful or lacking in consideration. After all, that is his/her opininion of *my* statements.
Now if he/she'd said that I should drop dead or made comments of a personal nature, *that* would have been disrespectful & lacking in consideration.
As it is, we are merely having an interesting conversation in which both disagree.
posted on July 11, 2001 10:20:21 PM newHJW:Where did I say that he was totally deprived? or make it "sound" that way?
In your last couple of posts (before getting your wrist slapped ) you spoke of his "lost opportunities" and went on to say "I question how anybody could really be happy under such circumstances".
And again, totally ignored the fact that Mr. Gibson could have, at any time in the last 65 years, learned how to read. It really wasn't his employer's responsibility to teach him.
posted on July 12, 2001 05:48:46 AM new
Someone, or a couple of people, wondered how we could assume the writer of this article was white? I think the writer's white, and why I think that jells in this one sentence:
"Gibson is proud of the way he's conducted his life, without saying so. There's pride in his voice when he says he's never been in jail - as if that were ever a threat."
(bolding mine)
That one sentence is so naive that it pretty near crosses the line into being completely stupid.
I believe that I have made my position clear on this issue in this thread and in the thread, Obituary, which was started by Jamesoblivion. I realize that people who have not lived in Mississippi or in a similar southern racist environment may find my opinion hard to understand
Again, I have accepted the community guidelines and agreed to refer to your interpretations of my opinion as just wrong...not dead wrong. But, this wrist slap, as you call it, is indeed a disconcerting issue to consider. In my opinion, I have offended someone in the community and I am therefore unwelcome here... Because a seasoned and well experienced moderator made the call, I cannot believe that these two words alone led to his decision. So, I will have no further comments to make on this "Spazmodeous" thread.
Helen
edited to remove the word not.
[ edited by Hjw on Jul 12, 2001 06:10 AM ]
edited to replace the word although with because.
[ edited by Hjw on Jul 12, 2001 09:25 AM ]
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) you spoke of his "lost opportunities" and went on to say "I question how anybody could really be happy under such circumstances".