posted on July 12, 2001 06:17:41 AM newI realize that people who have not lived in Mississippi or in a similar southern racist environment may find my opinion hard to understand
I'm living in Mississippi and I've visited it all my life as my grandparents lived here. Even with that I find your opinion difficult to understand.
It's wrong to prejudge people because of their race but it is okay to prejudge a people because of their geography?
There you go again seeing ghosts. I think Pat was only trying to defuse in advance what he saw as a potentially troublesome situation.
Without retracting a single word of anything I have said here, I would like to point out that I did not call this Joe an Uncle Tom. Read again exactly what I did write.
I've reread the article in light of what has been said, disregarding those things said by 'some people' who seem to only appear if they feel that they've found a chink in my armor so that they can feed through the resultant hole, and I still read it as racist. Surely it's couched in what might be called the 'new age' racism that has supplanted the blatant sort of a few decades ago. Maybe my chief objection here is to the writer's hopeless attempt. But it isn't necessary to have lived in the south to know racism when you see it because it is not contained there at all. In fact I thought during a year in Alabama that the racism there must be the most civilized in the world. All that is necessary is to care about and find what can be found about the reality of other people's lives. You can't read about it, and it's not taught in schools. You have to go to them, be with them, work with them, perhaps love them. Above all you feel LIKE them, and truly see no difference between you.
This school gets a new white president, a woman as it happens. She wants to set a tone of her tenure as quickly as possible, finds that there is an employee of 65 years, and directs that something be done to recognize him. Fine, and more power to her. Maybe she also gave him a raise. I hope so.
I've cut short what could be quite a diatribe. I've got painters coming, and didn't want to overload those 'some people' again.
posted on July 12, 2001 07:07:25 AM new
I wasn't coming back to this thread but the idea that you can say a person is lying but then deny calling them a liar is something that KRS has perfected. In his world saying someone "Uncle Tom'ed" their whole life is not the same as calling them an Uncle Tom.
posted on July 12, 2001 09:04:08 AM new
Case in point. Nevertheless, inside, I'm sure that you would agree that a person could spend a lifetime doing or saying stupid things without their actually being stupid?
posted on July 12, 2001 12:19:36 PM new
Uaru, I asked Helen at what age she moved from Mississippi but she did not reply. I would be more curious to know the year.
T
By my best estimate, it was 1950.
[ edited by jt on Jul 12, 2001 12:32 PM ]
posted on July 12, 2001 05:54:03 PM new
uaru - of course predjudice is wrong in any form! But, it sure isn't new in applying it to location.
I grew up in Chicago where I spent a lot of time sneaking around trying to be friends with all different kinds of people. Southeners were thought of as ignorant white trash. I was not allowed to associate with them so when my mother found out I was hanging with them I got grounded for a month. My father hated blacks, and said so many nasty things about them it made me sick. One of his favorite things to say was they smelled bad. I was too young to realize at that time the trouble I would get in when I blurted out, "my friends don't smell bad!"
One of my best friends was from Germany. I met her when she first came over, she didn't even speak English. I'm Polish so you can imagine the uproar with that friendship. This was during the late 50's.
Yes, predjudice is still around, we all just have to keep fighting to get rid of it.
posted on July 12, 2001 08:39:17 PM new
"I just really get tired of having every black person's success questioned as to whether or not he had to "Uncle Tom" to get ahead."
Success? You call this success? Is this what you would hope for your children, to spend 65 years as a menial, cutting grass, have a plaque hung up in someone else's office, be unable to read or write, and then be trotted out to smile about it so some doofus can fill up a page of newsprint and everyone can bask in the heartwarming glow? This is what passes for success? For this guy, you call it success. For your own children, you'd probably call it a damn shame and a waste.
posted on July 12, 2001 08:48:28 PM new
You know, a lot of white people--as well as people of every other color on earth work at "menial" jobs. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I was raised to believe that is doesn't matter *what* kind of job you have--what matters is that it is one you enjoy (Mr. Gibson obviously does) and that you do your very best at it & take pride in what you do (Mr. Gibson obviously does).
There's that condescension again...if someone doesn't have a "white-collar" job they are somehow less than those who do. Excuse me, but there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with being a janitor, a gardener, a garbageman (Excuse me, garbageperson), etc. etc. etc. They are honorable jobs--and just as important as any other (just see what happens when there is a garbage strike if you don't think so).
posted on July 12, 2001 08:59:14 PM new
Oh, but of course. God bless the little people (doing the jobs we don't want to do). The salt of the earth! But is it what you aspire to? Or what you would want your children to aspire to? Nope, but where would we be without them!
posted on July 12, 2001 10:12:31 PM newOh, but of course. God bless the little people (doing the jobs we don't want to do). The salt of the earth! But is it what you aspire to? Or what you would want your children to aspire to? Nope, but where would we be without them!
Not everyone on earth aspires to work in an office, be a doctor, work on wall street, etc., etc. etc. Nothing wrong with that. I have a master's degree & a great career as a librarian...but if I could figure out a way to make a living with one of my other interests (crafts, dogs, woodworking, etc.) I'd do it in a flash. The only reason I *am* a librarian is because they pay me to do what I would be doing anyway
A couple of years ago our local paper ran a story about a 14 year-old boy. At the age of nine he started the "menial" job of mowing lawns. He was deligent, and good at his job. So good that by the time he was 14 he'd expanded *his* business, bought more mowers, hired other boys, and was pulling in over $30,000 per year. So, do you think his parents were ashamed of their son?
edited cuz "moving" just isn't the same as "mowing"
edited again cuz "movers" just isn't the same as "mowers"--now WHY do I keep wanting there to be a "v"?
[ edited by bunnicula on Jul 12, 2001 10:13 PM ]
[ edited by bunnicula on Jul 12, 2001 10:15 PM ]
posted on July 12, 2001 10:20:59 PM new
So it's your position, bunnicula, that Joe Gibson was at the full realization of his aspirations and capabilities, and that there's nothing wrong with that.
Why then would it be important to him to do what he could to see that his children were able to attain higher education? It would seem to be sufficient to spend his efforts as regards his children in seeing to their qualification to take his place at the school.
posted on July 12, 2001 10:23:10 PM new
I would be very interested if the author of the article could be emailed and made aware of this (and the other) thread.
posted on July 12, 2001 10:38:26 PM new
Success Story #1 - 9 year old boy begins by mowing other peoples' grass. By the age of 14, he's so successful that he has his own business, bought equipment, hired workers, and is making $30,000 a year.
Success Story #2 - 15 year old boy begins by mowing other peoples' grass, those other people in this case being an institution of higher learning. 65 years later, at the age of 80, he's still mowing their grass and, ironically, can't read or write.
You don't see a difference between the "success" in these two stories?
posted on July 12, 2001 10:56:25 PM new
And here's another thing that bothers me about this story - this story where everyone is so happy about everything...
"They've tried to promote him," said Harper Davis, head football coach..."
Let's be realistic. How far can a man who can't read or write be promoted? What are they going to do, move him up from cutting grass to cutting shrubbery? And from there, he might go even higher, to cutting back trees? Tell me that they tried to get him to take employer-paid education so he could advance in his career. Isn't that what employers who value their employees should do?
There's all this feel-good happy backslapping in this story and it just doesn't wash.
posted on July 13, 2001 01:56:11 AM newNow we have occupational bigotry?
Apparently so. Funny thing is I've sat in traffic and fantasized about a completely stress free job that was much simpler but provided me with a living. I've known some people that had such lives and jobs and they were so uncaring of what others thought that they thought they were content. How could they do such things with their lives?
Look how silly the Amish are, they could be developing software or manufacturing pharmaceuticals instead of a simple life of living off the land. The Amish don't even get the advantage of rewarding dialogs such as this.
posted on July 13, 2001 02:46:05 AM new
Did the article mention that Joe Gibson is a spiritual guru who has devoted his life to healing the suffering of tose entrapped in meatgrinder jobs? I missed that part.
But in truth, I was simulteneously offered employment in a position I took and as a school gardener for a Marin co. unified school district. I 've wondered what might have come of me had I made the other choice. Possibly I'd have fallen by the wayside under the vagaries of the later passed CA proposition 13, but had I stayed where would I be today? I would not have been able, even then, to purchase a home in the community so in all likelihood when I married and then bought a home it would have been in a (then) farm community some 30-40 miles away. So I would have commuted. As time went by openings would occur, and my being qualified to at least apply for them, I would have. Now I'm competing. As is the nature of higher level positions, responsibility increases and so then does job pressures. I would no doubt have had a crew of people from whom it was my job to extract a level of performance. Now I'm stressed.
So, would things have been different, really? In scale perhaps. One thing that would not have been different would have been my own need to explore my capabilities through opportunity as it presents to me.
And there's a rub. I'd have been a problem of my own making--something that Joe Gibson has not been according to any who view his having maintained his employment to be 'quite an accomplishment'. Or has he ever had an opportunity to be more than he had been? I know, old what's his name SAID "they wanted to promote him", but by his own choice, ACCORDING to what's his name he said "I'm staying right here". Where would he have been promoted to, as Donny asks?
For me it was one thing. I'm white and I was walking around with two bachelor's degrees and most of a degree in law.
posted on July 13, 2001 03:35:43 AM newkrsDid the article mention that Joe Gibson is a spiritual guru who has devoted his life to healing the suffering of tose entrapped in meatgrinder jobs? I missed that part.
That makes us even, because I didn't see the article mention anything of him being an "Uncle Tom."
krsThe poor guy had to Uncle Tom his whole life through.
Could it be we are using different browsers or different hearts to read the same story?
posted on July 13, 2001 04:17:52 AM new
Using the disgustingly ever-present Tom Hanks for universal recognition, who has played policeman, homosexual lawyer, WW2 platoon leader, and on and on, what is he? Would you say that because he's played a homosexual aids victim that he is one, or because he's played a sort of sappy dog loving detective that that's what he is?
posted on July 13, 2001 06:00:17 AM new
I wonder what choices Joe might have made different. The time frame was the middle of the depression. Most people, of any color, were lucky to get day jobs. Here was a young man whose father not only had a regular job but who was able to get his son employed too. I am sure at the time he, his family, his friends and his neighbors thought him a great success story.
Since that time he raised a family and saw too it that his kids had the opportunity to go to college. Had he told his kids that education was unimportant, had he not paid for them to go to college, had he not looked to the future in his own way and worked hard to make it better for his children, then you could put Joe down.
But to assign personality traits to him based on his color, to look down your noses upon him because he is not white coller, to negate his life with the strokes of a keyboard is just wrong.
No amount of trying to sugar coat these ugly responses will ever make it right. He is a man who has done nothing to hurt anyone here and he deserves better than this.
posted on July 13, 2001 06:05:01 AM new
I've watched this thread for a while now so I guess I'll join in. (I meant to ask my husband to read it and offer his opinion since he hasn't read any of the responses. We both grew up in the South in the 50s and 60s.)
I've written fluff pieces for newspapers and there are parts of this article that make me cringe and probably because of my Southern background. After reading the writer's second paragraph, I wanted to say,"Why the hell didn't you explore why there was such a dichotomy?" If the school and community have no problems discussing race, why not ask for a truly detailed remembrance of what life had been like on campus for Mr. Gibson. Certainly he's seen some remarkable changes there. He's probably been there longer than anyone else and his recollections are valuable.
I believe people can do their work honorably. I just wonder if Mr. Gibson really set forth to be a groundskeeper for his whole life or whether along the way , he felt he couldn't do more ( or couldn't learn to read). And why it was that he felt that way.
(A good editor is a wonderful person to know. I miss having one.)
[ edited by saabsister on Jul 13, 2001 06:19 AM ]
posted on July 13, 2001 06:13:41 AM new Just slipping in here to respond to aquestion by jt.
<quote>
"Uaru, I asked Helen at what age she moved from Mississippi but she did not reply. I would be more curious to know the year.
T
By my best estimate, it was 1950."
<end quote>
I was away yesterday and missed your question.
The date that I left Mississippi is not relevant to this discussion. I left Missiissippi and returned to Mississippi many times during a period of many years.
If you want a corrected chronology of my life it would be more appropriate and considerate to send me an email.
posted on July 13, 2001 06:43:20 AM new
Here's an institute of higher learning, learning mind you, filled with people who's purpose for being there is to teach or to learn or both. Right in their midst is a person who cannot even read and in 65 years no one noticed? Why not? I've spent some time in and around such places as have most here, I'd say. Doesn't it strike you odd, even abhorrent, that this could happen? I've never known a person who's business it was to teach who could stand by and let a person go through life unable to read without doing what they could to correct that by teaching. Around here there are volunteer groups who seek out illiterate people and give them their time in any way needed to assist them to learn that simple necessity, that path to the world.
Well, they did notice--it says so right there in the cutesy article. What did they do? They give Joe a plaque and put his name in a paer that he can't read making special note of the interesting oddity that he's been there all that time, at that SCHOOL, and can not read.
You think that they'd make such a display if Joe were he a white person in the same circumstance? I'd bet money that they would not. They'd be ashamed of it and be running all around asking "what? he can't read? This is a college!! We've got to do something about that".
posted on July 13, 2001 07:38:08 AM new
<i>For your own children, you'd probably call it a damn shame and a waste.</i>
Well that's what my mother-in-law called it when we both left 10 year and 5 year department manager positions at this college to become self-employed as full-time ebay sellers of our own free will. No regrets. I could expound on why but maybe it would not matter.
I sit here thinking that "success" is in the eye of the beholder but wondering where these comments leave me.
I love to read. I wish Joe Lee could. Joe Lee evidently loves gardening. He leaves work and goes home to do it in his free time. He could retire. He has without a doubt built quite a retirement in 65 years since the college makes a sizeable contribution to his retirement fund every month. I don't think it's a financial issue. Why does he elect to still go to work everyday?
T
posted on July 13, 2001 08:14:47 AM new
What's missing is the rest of the story.
Did Mr. Gibson have other aspirations, hopes and dreams for his life?
Maybe, just maybe, Mr. Gibson didn't feel the need to learn to read and write.
Maybe, just maybe, offers of tutoring were made and he declined.
I have enough faith in humanity that if Mr. Gibson had felt the need and requested assistance either from the school's staff, students, co-workers, his 5 educated children, the Goodman family (who has known him since FDR), or someone in his church, someone would have stepped forward to tutor him, or, at the very least, suggest evening classes at a local school.
------
It doesn't matter whether you (all) and I consider Mr. Gibson to be a successful man.
It matters only to Mr. Gibson and his family.
I would bet his family would say he was successful in spite of either the denial of education or substandard education when he was a boy and young man.
To measure success in dollars and cents; whether one wears a white collar or blue collar or no collar; or whether one has an education or not, is downright snooty.
