posted on July 14, 2001 09:59:34 PM new
Inside, it's about the choices available to people, and their range of opportunities. While some people on this thread have said - I've thought about leaving my vocation and taking up another one, that isn't comparable to being illiterate and having to work at an unskilled job.
Every so often, you'll read a story in the paper or a magazine - Joe Blow, former millionaire executive, ex-head of Fortune 500 company, chucks it all and is now a (fill in the blank) making $3,000 a year, says he loves it! "No more high-pressure ulcers for me," says Joe Blow, "this is the life!"
Do we see lost opportunities there? No. He had a range of opportunities and could freely choose.
This is not the same as being illiterate and having few choices in what you'll make as your career.
It's a shame when someone's range is hampered by a misfortune such as not being able to read. That's what I said, not that it's shameful to work as an unskilled laborer.
posted on July 14, 2001 10:01:07 PM new
Donny, that is not a fair analogy. Yes, I would miss reading, because I have had the ability and would miss it. Joe has not had that same experience. However, I dont presume to dictate what I think is best for any individual. All I can do as a human being is acknowledge that he did what he could, and he did it well...reading ability or not. Looks to me like he had other abilities that he practiced and lived with and for that, he deserves praise, not what some of what this thread has done..belittle what he was, is. He did very well with what he DOES have. Isnt that enough?
posted on July 14, 2001 10:10:29 PM new
I don't think it's debatable that reading is not only a valuable skill, it is perhaps THE most valuable skill a person living in the modern world can have.
posted on July 14, 2001 10:12:28 PM new
I do believe Im on a completely different wave length than you then. I know what you are saying, Donny. But Im looking at it from a different spectrum. I see a man who worked hard, for a very long time, doing what he could in an era where it was/is extremely difficult to survive especially for someone that is black. I dont see the "reading" issue. I see the man who worked HARD, and sent his children to get the best schooling he could, giving up his own needs and wants to do it. So he got a plaque. Big whoopee. He should have had a wing named after him, a raise, and free schooling himself by the same institution. Thats what you see and focus on. I just see the man and what he DID, against the odds. Yes, he should have had the opportunities the same students he picked up after had. We dont know if he was offered it or not. That doesnt matter now. What does matter is what he DID. And he did it with pride for himself, as Joe, the man with the spiffy hat who did what he could. Thats what I see.
posted on July 14, 2001 11:04:41 PM new
I see a thread that--title aside--was started about an ARTICLE, not a MAN. The question was about whether the ARTICLE was RACIST, or had RACIST OVERTONES. Several people have confirmed that they had this impression, and have detailed why.
To a side issue that's arisen, illiteracy in the US can't be defended, period. Dyslexics are taught to read and write and even compute every darned day.
On another topic, I think that performing over half a century of unremitting menial labor can only be seen as an "accomplishment" if you assume that it represents an achievement for that individual. AFAIC, the quotes from Mr. Gibson do not support that conclusion. Someone with the spirit and drive he's shown, and the sheer will to endure that lousy job, might have made more meaningful contributions to this world than those the author chose to share with us. I don't think sharing space with other names on a crummy placque tucked away in the plant office counts. Aggrandizing 65 years of raking the grounds of this institution of higher learning is one of the most absurd things going in this thread. Especially in light of this line from the article: "He's standing near the Student Union, thistledown drifting like flakes of snow onto the grass, piling up like the years he's spent sprucing it up." That's one of the saddest summations of a life I've ever read.
The article's the problem. IMO, donny, krs, and Helen are right in their takes on it.
posted on July 14, 2001 11:20:51 PM new
Pareau, Nice to see you.
However..I must disagree with you on one point [at least ] My brother cannot be taught to learn to read or write. He will never be able to read the post you just made. NEVER. He has tried and tried to learn and the teachers have tried and tried to teach him and he cannot do it. He can recognize some words but he cannot read,not in the sense that you and I can. He is 40 now and does just fine thank you very much,but please do not tell me that he can be taught to read. HE CANNOT. There are some people that truly cannot learn to read and write. There are different levels of disability associated with dyslexia. My brother is a "ten" [ten being the worst].
posted on July 14, 2001 11:34:45 PM new
Baduizm, isn't there a place for a fluff piece in journalism? Sometimes you just want to eat a marshmellow you know.
True. Fluff is OK, at times, depending on the space of a news hole, or newsprint.
But I kinda see what others are trying to say here, regarding Mr. Gibson. The article, was written in a condescending way, regardless if that was the intent.
posted on July 14, 2001 11:46:04 PM new
If by "succeed" you mean bringing in $50K + per year, or living in a 3000+ sq ft. house, or having the biggest car...then no, Mr. Gibson certainly didn't "succeed."
But, if by "success" you mean living an honorable life, working hard, raising a family & insuring that your children have everything they need & setting them on a firm path in life...then Mr. Gibson *has* succeeded.
I have seen many "successful" people who don't have as much as this man does.
posted on July 15, 2001 12:35:19 AM new
Wait a sec.
If by "succeed" you mean bringing in $50K + per year, or living in a 3000+ sq ft. house, or having the biggest car...then no, Mr. Gibson certainly didn't "succeed."
Where in that article did it state Joe Gibson's salary, the square footage of his home, or the relative size of his car? I can't find those references. For all we know from reading the piece, the guy is bringing down $55K (with OT), has a 3000' home with a pool, and drives a Lincoln--this year's model. That "clean but shabby" imagery in the article doesn't mean he's poor, but it may mean the author wants you to think he is. CLICK!
"... insuring that your children have everything they need & setting them on a firm path in life...
I musta missed this one too, since I didn't see any of the 5 offspring interviewed. Only they could say whether they'd received "everything they need[ed]," or whether they felt they'd been set on a "firm path in life." Drawing such conclusions may be the objective of the piece, but it's not what was said. CLICK!
Come on, peeps, the article was a sop. CLICK! CLICK! CLICK!
posted on July 15, 2001 03:11:02 AM new
hepburn, just as a detached fact, because you mentioned it, he does get a free college education as part of his employee package. All his children and his spouse get a free education. They have to pay the registration fee (not much) and buy their books. Tuition was somewhere around 18K per year last time I was aware of it. I don't know where all his kids went. The one mentioned went to a public majority (actually, nearly all) black university.
Someone also mentioned my posting the link and perhaps I was unaware of the difference between the two articles. I HONESTLY thought no one would pay attention to it, it would be ignored, and the thread was on on the verge of dead and dying. It was just for James. I never dreamed this would happen.
There are so many other elderly people who have led similar lives to Joe Lee that I could talk to. I always mean to "interview" them and keep a record of what they have to share. I never seem to do it. It's a dream. We always seem talk about what's in the garden or the weather. Tick tock, time is running out.
I can remember my great grandfather still living in a real log cabin when I was a kid. He had electricity, one light bulb hanging on a wire, and no indoor plumbing. He went to town (a town with one grocery store) twice a year. I don't think he ever went more than 10 miles from where he was born. He could read but his only books were early 1900's primers from elementary school and the Bible. He just farmed cotton and smoked meat in a smokehouse. I remember when we watched news coverage of the early space program (at another relative's house) and he told me about hearing the radio broadcast of the Wright Brothers on the radio. Rare time he wasn't silent. I looked through some of his papers not too long ago and saw where he sold his cotton crop for $55, his annual salary. He died in 1979 in a house fire.
My (other side) grandma died before Christmas this last year. She went to Texas and back in a covered wagon when she was young. They had to put the wagon on a train to get across the Mississippi River.
Everytime a Joe Lee or a grandma dies without writing a book, it's a huge loss.
My loss, yours.
"I musta missed this one too, since I didn't see any of the 5 offspring interviewed. Only they could say whether they'd received "everything they need[ed]," or whether they felt they'd been set on a "firm path in life." Drawing such conclusions may be the objective of the piece, but it's not what was said. CLICK!"
Perhaps you should re-read the article. I do believe Annette was quoted several times. CLICK
KRS,
If your objection from the start has been about the article and not the man, why the black talk and 'Uncle Tom' comments? Did I simply miss your attempt at black humor?
Donny,
Thank you for admitting there is no shame in working at unskilled labor.
As for opportunities. Unless you know for a fact the Mr. Gibson was denied the opportunity to learn to read, the your points (while interesting) are mute in this case.
jt,
I think most posters saw your post to James for what it was. There is no way you could have forseen the negativity generated towards this man and his life.
posted on July 15, 2001 07:28:43 AM new
Inside, perhaps you should change your name to "Sideways." There's no "admission" in agreeing that there's no shame in unskilled labor. Again, what I had said is that is a shame if that's the choice someone is limited to.
"As for opportunities. Unless you know for a fact the Mr. Gibson was denied the opportunity to learn to read, the your points (while interesting) are mute in this case."
Wrong again. Not being able to read, whether that opportunity is missed, denied, or rejected is a huge loss. Spazmodeus has said Joe Lee Gibson's inability to read is only tragic if he had tried to get schooling and had been actively turned away. I disagree. It's tragic, in and of itself.
Anyway, Terri, you've made me think of something from my own children's high school experience, two years ago or so.
Their English teacher set her students out on a project to interview elderly people in town, just like you've thought of doing. My daughter interviewed an elderly lady who offerred up an innocuous anecdote about Flannery O'Connor that, really, wasn't all that interesting, whether from my daughter's lack of literary fire or just a "you had to be there" type of thing.
My son, though, drew an old guy who came across like one of those stereotypical "Let me tell you what I did in the war!" WWII veterans. My son showed me his article before he turned it in, and it was liberally peppered with references to "Japs."
I read this and said something like - "This is what he said, 'Japs' this and 'Japs' that?" Yes, my son told me, the quotations are exactly what he said. Okay, I said, turn it in like that. And he did.
When the collection of students' stories came out at the end of the year, I read my son's story, and his teacher had edited the gentleman's quotations, replacing 'Japs' with euphemisms like "the enemy" or "the Japanese" and the like.
So, it's funny. I'm sure this teacher had rosy visions of the wealth of knowledge and experience of the older generation that would soon be lost, and she did get that, but maybe she also found out that there are some things we don't want to hear. We want our old people to be be some kind of soft and wrinkly paragons, noble fonts of wisdom. And when this teacher found something that was, to her eyes, a bit unsavory and ugly, she edited this WWII veteran to fit her ideal.
You have gone from saying that if Joe Leee Gibson was your child you would consider his life a shame and a waste and from saying that Joe Lee was oppressed and denied the opportunity to learn to read his entire life ... to now your position is simply that it is sad that any person in this world (no matter the color, age, or reason) is unable to read.
posted on July 15, 2001 11:03:33 AM new
I hate doing this, but, to repeat. This is what I said, and what I still say:
"Success? You call this success? Is this what you would hope for your children, to spend 65 years as a menial, cutting grass, have a plaque hung up in someone else's office, be unable to read or write, and then be trotted out to smile about it so some doofus can fill up a page of newsprint and everyone can bask in the heartwarming glow? This is what passes for success? For this guy, you call it success. For your own children, you'd probably call it a damn shame and a waste."
If you have a child, look at him or her. Imagine him or her at an age before being able to read. A bundle of potential, the possibilities are endless. Not only earning potential, but the opportunity to read his or her own children's report cards, to read a novel whose characters grip us, to read a street sign, to read the bible.
Now, through some twist of fate, intentional or not, decreed or accidental, your child, with all the potential you can dream about, is condemned to a life of illiteracy. Look at him 80 years later.
You wouldn't consider that a shame and a waste? Would it be for your own child, or is it not in this case because it's an old black guy?
posted on July 15, 2001 11:30:26 AM new
You're right, inside, it's right there: One daughter saying "He made sure we had everything growing up." She also cites his church-going habits and his commitment to family, but provides the most detail (in the article, anyway) about his domestic groundskeeping: "He comes home from work and picks up paper in the yard," she says. "And he works in the garden. He's very dedicated to the yard. Nobody can do the job like he can do it. He has to cut it himself." And so we shall remember him.
A couple of people have characterized the article as "fluff" or a "marshmallow" piece. Writing the biography of a living man as "fluff" is itself a pretty disrespectful thing to do. It's clear the piece was not "news" and could, at best, be called "human interest." We're aware of and discussing it here because it was publicized at AW by a former Millsaps student and employee (a "department manager"--see p. 4) who "knows" Joe Gibson (see p. 3) and has seen fit to share with us details of his life we likely would not otherwise know: "He has without a doubt built quite a retirement in 65 years since the college makes a sizeable contribution to his retirement fund every month. I don't think it's a financial issue." However condescending, at least the article was written with his knowledge and apparent consent.
posted on July 15, 2001 11:30:45 AM new
You're partly right, Inside, when you say that I can't get past the fact that Joe Lee Gibson is a black man.
Truly, I think that that fact, that Joe Lee Gibson is a black man, an elderly black man, an elderly black man who did not receive the education that all of his here did, who worked many years as an unskilled laborer, like George Dawson, is what brought Joe Lee Gibson's story to Terri's mind on her reading George Dawson's story.
To acknowledge that people of are different races is not racism. To put forth that a certain level of education is satisfactory for a person of one race, and not good enough for a person of your own, is.
posted on July 15, 2001 12:18:51 PM newWriting the biography of a living man as "fluff" is itself a pretty disrespectful thing to do.
That's what I have been trying to get at and what bothers me about this whole thing. He worked HARD. "What if's" dont apply now. He deserves to be praised for doing the best he could, which looks like a helluva lot better than most who would have found themselves in the same situation. Bravo to Joe.
posted on July 15, 2001 01:05:03 PM new
The information was nothing exclusive to Joe Lee nor in anyway could it be considered "confidential information". It was a generalizaion as all employees- grounds keepers, professors, etc. all recieve the exact same perks. I did not work in his department, nor in Human Resources so I know nothing at all about his personal records. I know what is common to all staff and faculty.
posted on July 15, 2001 01:53:04 PM new
"To acknowledge that people of are different races is not racism. To put forth that a certain level of education is satisfactory for a person of one race, and not good enough for a person of your own, is."
You are right, that would be very racist. That would sit right up there with the Uncle Tom crap.
posted on July 15, 2001 06:50:41 PM new
Somehow, it's come to be thought that to actively believe, and practice, the tenet that "all men are created equal," (and extend that acknowledgement to include "regardless of race," ) we must also persistantly insist that all men, once equally created, have and have had equal experiences and opportunities, regardless of race. To note otherwise is to risk being labelled "racist," seemingly in the sense that we recognize the reality that there has been, and still is, disparity in economic and educational experiences, opportunities, and achievements that break along racial lines.
I can't see how the answer to closing the gap is to pretend that the gap doesn't exist.
(errant smiley)
[ edited by donny on Jul 15, 2001 06:52 PM ]
posted on July 15, 2001 07:33:30 PM new
This reminds me of the episode in "All in the Family" when Archie was trying to explain to Sammy Davis, Jr. how a black man was supposed to feel.
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