posted on July 15, 2001 07:13:21 AM new
Even though it may not be the most "comfortable" thing to do for either of you, I would just keep her with me until I could make arrangements for her to live in a place that older people can have a house of their own, but still be watched over. It is not a nursing home, we around here call them senior citizen apartments. I don't know what you call them in your area. But I know they are everywhere.
If your uncle won't back off, then have your grandmother call the police and have a restraining order put them.
They can't force her to live with them. But people like that very rarely ever wake up and smell the coffee. It is either their way or no way in everything. They behave like spoiled little children and they will most likely continue to make your life as miserable and their life is.
So just do what is best for your grandmother, even if it puts you both out a little. She may not be around for much longer, after all she is 81, and when she is gone, you will have the peace of mind in knowing that even though it may have been rough on you, you made her life liveable, that she didn't have to have it end in that horrible enviroment.
I wish you all the best...
http://www.geocities.com/sandcastless/crafts.html
[ edited by jwoodcrafts on Jul 15, 2001 07:15 AM ]
I know what you mean. Here's an opposite situation. My husband has asthma, so he can't be around people who smoke indoors. And when we got together with some family at my aunt's house on the 4th of July, my aunt must have told everyone who smoked that they had to go outside and do it, because no one smoked in the house at all. My husband was able to spend some time with them outside while they smoked, because it won't affect him then. I think that was wonderful of them and they didn't have to make that accomodation because we were at their house. (I've been over there by myself, so I know they generally do smoke indoors.)
jwoodcrafts,
We wouldn't be uncomfortable at all with keeping her at our house and I've told her I'm actually frightened for her to go back there. She knows I'm calling APS tomorrow and she wishes I wouldn't because she's still afraid of repercussions against her son. But she still insists on trying to go back tonight. I think she's afraid to start the process of moving out on her own without being forced to leave somehow by them.
We do have senior apartments and I think you're pretty much on your own in those. I've been told that independent living might be the answer. She could start out in a studio apartment with the bare minimum of services, then she could upgrade to receiving more services if she needed them. They would also check on her well-being, so I wouldn't be the only one to do so in case my uncle refuses to reconcile with her after the fact.
She herself refuses to involve the authorities, but she seems to understand why I have to. I'm a little bit paranoid at this point after all that's happened. I wouldn't put it past my aunt to throw her out of the house and claim that my grandmother moved out voluntarily and they can't figure out why she didn't come back for her stuff (despite the fact that she has no access to the inside because they refused to let her have a housekey). It would be their word against hers, unless I call first thing in the morning and make a report and ask for an investigation.
She hates the thought of people actually going out there and that's another reason I've told her she'd be safer at my house. Who knows what they'll do when they see the notice APS leaves on the door? I told her that if she were here with me, they'd come to my house first and she would be much calmer without having to speak in front of my aunt and uncle. Then they would go over there and no matter how mad my aunt and uncle got, they couldn't take it out on her after the APS people leave.
But, legally, I can't keep her at my house against her will either. All I can do is hope she changes her mind before tonight, or maybe even hope they won't let her back in. Then at least she'd be safe with us and I would add to my list of complaints the fact that they refused to let her return and that I'll have to involve the police to get her possessions back.
Either way, I'm not letting this go. I couldn't live with myself if I did.
posted on July 15, 2001 09:22:24 AM new
I hate to say this, but in addition to what you're already doing I would also check on your grandmother's finances. You did say that your uncle has power of attorney? Make sure that your grandmother's funds are safe & sound and haven't been used for other things...
posted on July 15, 2001 09:31:06 AM new
Hhmen - people who think they have more "rights" than they really do are often
that way with property rights also.
My grandmother got into the house alright last night without any trouble. She says my uncle was quite civil to her. My aunt was already in bed, although it was only 7:30 PM.
This morning I called Adult Protective Services. A caseworker has until Thursday to try and make the initial contact with her and my aunt and uncle. The usual procedure is to make contact with the elderly person and their caregivers, and then talk to the person who made the referral and that would be me. However, they may want to talk to me first if they're unsuccessful in their first attempt to get into the house.
My grandmother isn't sure that she even has the authority to let them into the house even if she should answer the door, because it's not her house. I told her that she was free to explain that to them, but it would be entirely up to APS whether or not to take that as a refusal to cooperate or to just leave their card instructing my aunt and uncle to make an appointment to let them in.
She understands that I'm trying to help her, not hurt her. I said that if my aunt and uncle hadn't become hostile towards both of us and cutting off the lines of communication, we might have been able to resolve this peacefully. She's concerned that by my calling APS, I'll never be able to reconcile with my uncle. I said that wasn't really the important thing, that only her safety and well-being was. And I reminded her that just because my uncle was pleasant with her last night, that could change the minute my aunt gets home. After all, my grandmother hasn't had any contact with my aunt since my aunt screamed at her Saturday afternoon. They're both gone to work before my grandmother gets up in the morning.
She wants to leave the house peacefully with her relationship with my uncle intact. She still doesn't want to believe that he could just coldly turn his back on her. I myself think he's already done that. When she spoke of trying to find another place to live back in March, my uncle did nothing to help her achieve this, despite the fact that my grandmother doesn't drive and doesn't know where to even start to find the right place to live. I was trying to stay out of it and let the three of them work it out, but she got no help so she just gave up.
I'm getting the impression here that my aunt starts these arguments with my grandmother, then runs to my uncle all upset, then he blames my grandmother for getting his wife upset. It's like she's trying to get my uncle to force my grandmother out of the house.
I've spent a lot of time thinking about the conversations I'd had with my aunt in the initial weeks following my grandfather's death. My grandmother called my aunt and uncle to the house on a Sunday because my grandfather had been ill since Thursday, (I'd been talking to my grandparents during this interval and they never said a thing to me about him not being well.) and my aunt ordered him to go to the hospital. My grandmother did confirm that this did take place. My aunt insisted that he needed to go, but my grandfather refused to go. So then my aunt tried to pressure my grandmother to force him to go. But my grandmother wanted to respect my grandfather's wish to remain at home. He died that night peacefully in his sleep, about a half hour after my grandmother put him to bed. So, my aunt and uncle were back at the house again just hours later to start making final arrangements. My aunt told me that if he'd only listened to her and gone to the hospital, he'd still be alive. She also felt that my grandmother was to blame for not making him go.
I'd always wondered why my grandmother didn't call me immediately after calling my aunt and uncle when my grandfather died. We were very close and saw each other often. And they had such a close relationship with my kids. I didn't find out until the next morning that my grandfather had passed away. When we went to the house, my uncle made some remark about how they hadn't slept all night, yet we had. Like, well, gee, I'm sorry, but I just found out this morning, you know? (I didn't say that though, I was grieving myself, but I thought the remark odd.) My grandmother told me yesterday that it had been my uncle and aunt's idea to have her wait until the next day to call me so that my kids wouldn't have their sleep interrupted. (I wouldn't necessarily have woken my kids up, for the record. Telling them could have waited until morning. My daughter had just turned 3 and my son was 7 months old.)
After a short while, my grandmother openly blamed herself for not forcing my grandfather to go to the hospital because if so, he might still have been alive. I don't suppose I have to guess who pounded that awful thought in her head.
My grandmother always felt that my aunt never wanted her there. I have to say that she's probably right, but that's something my aunt and uncle should have worked to resolve, instead of take her in on a permanent basis and then let things get to this point.
posted on July 17, 2001 05:22:11 AM new
No updates yet. My grandmother is understandably nervous, of course, as am I. She's going to call, if not every day, at least every other day this week to let me know when the APS has been out there and what has transpired.
posted on July 17, 2001 08:22:00 AM new
I just got off the phone with my grandmother. She's still afraid, but through talking it out we decided that she could possibly put a positive spin on this whole thing, stressing the fact that the APS can assist her in finding suitable housing for her. I have my doubts as to whether that'll fly, but who knows?
She wants desperately to tell them about the APS coming over before they get surprised by it. She says it's not fair for them to be caught unawares. I reminded her that it wasn't fair for them to block me from calling without telling her either. Or to accuse me of trying to break up the family, which isn't true. Or to do any of the other things they've been doing. She's in her "defending the abusers and still hope we can work it out amicably" mode. She was relieved no one came by yesterday and was going to work up her courage to tell them last night, but there was some sort of crisis in the basement and my aunt and uncle were occupied with that.
I told her that if the APS came by today, they were going to find out without her being able to warn them. But to be fair, I did urge her to check the front door before they get home from work. They do not use their front door at all, not even to get their mail. They always enter and leave by the garage door. I told her that even with all that's happened, it would be a dirty trick to have the notice on the front door for 30 days, then have the police go out there simply because they don't bother to look at their front door.
I'm not that heartless. Or am I being too compassionate?
posted on July 17, 2001 10:44:41 AM new
Talk to your Uncle. Now. Alone.
No Grandmother, no Aunt, no husband. Just you and him.
Maybe you and he can discuss things reasonably. At least hear his side of what is going on.
I know you love your Grandmother and want the best for her, but you and she see each other when "its convienent". On the other hand your Uncle has her 24/7. (Living with a mother/daughter-in-law combo that doesn't get along must be heck) Yes, what he has been doing sounds extreme, and perhaps APS should be involved, but you've said yourself that you don't have his side of whats going on, only "he said, she said". Talk to him and try to resolve this ASAP cause when APS shows up things are going to get a lot worse before they get better.
Of course this is free advice, probably worth what you pay for it.
posted on July 17, 2001 11:28:30 AM newBlondeSense,
Just because your advice is free, doesn't mean it isn't worth something.
I don't know how I'm supposed to talk to him. I'm unable to call the house from my house. My husband says we shouldn't have to pay for a cell phone just to call my grandmother because they decided to block us. And if I call from another phone, the odds of him or my aunt hanging up without hearing me out are near certain. My aunt was always the one to answer the phone anyway and for certain she'll hang up. She thinks I'm a bi**ch trying to break up the family, remember?
And he was standing about 10 feet away from me when I picked my grandmother up on Saturday and he acted like I didn't exist. And it's pretty hard to miss someone sitting in a minivan that's so close to you without it being a deliberate slight.
I've thought of the possibility that my grandmother might be making life miserable for them. I'm not being insensitive to that. And I've tried again and again to discusss the matter with them and they've refused. Forcing her to come to my home against her wishes and mine isn't a solution and that's all they wanted to do about it.
When my grandmother said she'd find another place to live in March, they did nothing to assist her with that. She wanted me to do it for her, but I thought that should have been between the three of them. Also, I told her I couldn't take her around to visit places unless I had access to her during the day, which I don't since they won't give her a housekey.
I realize that getting APS involved is an extreme solution. My only other alternative was to write my grandmother off and tell her not to bother me anymore with her tales of woe.
I've spent some time preparing some documentation to assist me when the APS asks for my side of the story. Between the hearsay and the facts as I know them, it's about 6 pages long. And I'm prepared to say that if everything I've been told by my grandmother is a pack of lies, then I apologize for butting my nose in where it's not wanted and I'll not bother them again and respectfully request that my grandmother quit calling me and saying things that are only designed to upset me.
If my grandfather's ghost could come and speak I guarantee one of 2 things:
1. He'd tell her to get the heck out of there if she's being treated so terribly and let my family help her already!
2. He'd tell her to shape up or ship out of there and quit causing trouble between our 2 households!
Either way, he'd never put up with all this baloney.
Both yesterday and today she's been so upset because I called APS before she got a chance to warn them about it. Weeellll, I did tell her each time she called me last week that I was going to do it if she couldn't resolve the matter otherwise. I told her to tell them how I feel and that I'm willing to work out something with them. She didn't. I told her on Sunday I was going to call them first thing Monday morning and if she was afraid of repercussions, she was welcome to stay with us until the matter got resolved. She wouldn't. So she calls me yesterday to try and talk me out of it again, then gets all upset when I told her too late, it's already been done. She's supposed to be a responsible adult who should be able to talk to the people in the household, but she keeps telling me she lost the courage over and over again. Every day. She promises to talk to them that night, then the next day she's on the phone telling me she couldn't screw up the courage. Then again the next night and yet again. I don't know how many chances I've given her and she blew them all.
Nobody can say I didn't try hard enough. That's one thing I won't accept. And I'm not mad at you or anyone who's reading this thread. Don't get me wrong. But as I told my grandmother today when she called, when I'm called filthy names and accused of trying to cause all the damage in this situation, no way am I taking that lying down. And I told her that trying to plead with me daily to give her a chance to tell them first before the APS people come is something that's out of my hands now. It's up to APS when they come out, not anyone else.
Makes me wonder sometimes how much she might actually be contributing to all this animosity. But it's all going to get blown out in the open now.
posted on July 17, 2001 11:42:07 AM new
BJGrolle, I think you've done the right thing in getting APS involved. Now perhaps you'll get the whole story. It's too bad that you can't speak to your uncle directly and alone, but that's often how family systems devolve.
posted on July 17, 2001 12:11:48 PM new
APS...is that like Child Protective Services? If it is, you know they can involve law enforcement if your uncle or aunt doesn't cooperate with their "investigation." Big, big can of worms.
Is there any evidence of abuse? I read through some of the posts, but it sounded more like squabbling, not abuse.
posted on July 17, 2001 02:01:47 PM new
Thank you saabsister, because sometimes I'm wondering myself, but what's done is done.
julesy,
Yes, it's Adult Protective Services, and they deal in cases of suspected or known elder abuse. And they did also tell me that if they are refused admittance into the home they will come back with the police. Or of no one answers the door, they will leave a card instructing my aunt and uncle to schedule an appointment for them to return. They will have 30 days to do so and if they don't, APS will be back out with the police. So, if my aunt and uncle are uncooperative, they will only make things worse for themselves. I've told my grandmother that if they've nothing to hide, why should they refuse to cooperate?
As I stated, I was advised by an attorney to call them in and not try to handle it on my own anymore.
As for evidence of abuse vs. squabbling, I did some research prior to calling APS. The exact definition of abuse according to Ohio state law is "the infliction upon an adult by self or others of injury, unreasonable confinement, intimidation, or cruel punishment with resulting physical harm, pain, or mental anguish. And some details from the National Elder Abuse Incidence Study: Emotional or psychological abuse includes but is not limited to verbal assaults, insults, threats, intimidation, humiliation, and harassment. In addition, treating an older person like an infant; isolating an elderly person from family, friends, or regular activities; giving an older person a "silent treatment"; and enforced social isolation also are examples of emotional or psychological abuse. The report also gives signs and symptoms of abuse of which I will list the ones that apply in this situation:
Unexplained fear of or suspicion of particular person(s) in the home. Primarily my grandmother's fear of my aunt from the beginning and her recent fears of even trying to talk to my uncle about the current situation.
Emotional upset or agitation She always calls me, upset about something, or makes claims that get me upset. Like I'm supposed to hear repeatedly that they're mistreating her and not get upset?
An elder's report of being verbally or emotionally mistreated. See above.
And the following is from a report by a gentleman who is the Director of Development of an Area Agency on Aging:
Abuse may consist of physical, verbal, or psychological abuse, neglect, violation of rights, financial exploitation or self-neglect. In the Ohio study of elder abuse, 90% of the abusers were relatives;...the older person, may seek to hide the abuse out of fear, guilt, or shame. "They (victims) cand be frightened, embarrassed, or mistrustful, and have fear of outside contacts. They are ambivalent about dependency versus independence...
Psychological Abuse, which includes...[b]isolation; harassment; intimidation; withholding of affection and/or security; and refusing to allow the older person outside the home or allow visitors to see the older person. Signs of psychological abuse include: expressions of fear, anger or resignation...
Violation of Rights, such as usurping decision making powers of the older person or involuntary confinement of the older person to the bed, room or chair. Signs of violation of rights include: possibility that elder is denied visitors or freedom to go out of the house, to visit friends or to go to church
AARP, in their brochure, Domestic Mistreatment of the Elderly, Towards Prevention, Some Do's and Don'ts, identified several signs and symptoms: (again, just listing the pertinent ones here)
Increasing Depression (she says she has nothing to live for and I used to think she just couldn't recover from my grandfather's passing. Now I suspect there might be more to it.)
Withdrawn or Timid (she
s always been this way to some degree, but it's been excessive since she's lived there)
Anxiety Hostile (she had become increasingly hostile towards me during the regular weekly visits and we couldn't understand why and she was always unable to find a reason for it)
Confused (she admits to being confused quite often, something that was not normal previously)
Anxious to Please (this one most strongly, unreasonably so)
Conflicting Stories (this one is a close second)
Mounting Resentment Shifting Blame (mostly trying to blame herself for causing all the trouble instead of them)
Aggressive/Defensive Behavior
If you suspect that an older person, living in the community, is being abused, call Adult Protective Services...
Honestly, I didn't do this lightly. You can see that I did my research. And got the advice of an attorney. And begged my grandmother 3 times last week (that's how often she called me) to ask my aunt and uncle to please talk to me, tell them how I'm feeling about all this, and that I'm still willing to listen to anything they have to say, but I can't make amends for any wrongs if I don't know what they are. She never did. And if the problems over there had been intermittant, I would have let it go, but according to all that has passed and the frequency of my grandmother's complaints, it's a daily way of life.
And, of course, she called me both yesterday and today, trying to shift blame onto my shoulders for not giving her enough of a chance to try and talk to my aunt and uncle first. She kept promising to do it, then would call the next time and tell me she didn't do it. And if she's so frightened she can't even talk to her own son, then something is definitely wrong and needs to be corrected in some fashion.
I called APS this afternoon and got the name of the woman who has been put on the case. They didn't know what her schedule was, but I'm free to call in the mornings and ask for her directly to see if she'd been there on the previous afternoon. That's the time of day they go out to the homes. I was told that my grandmother should not warn my aunt and uncle about this. I said, I'm sorry, but you know I can't even call her to tell her this because they've blocked me from calling.
Well, I only have to wait a couple of more days on this. And I'm certain I'm going to get a call from someone after the visit.
posted on July 17, 2001 05:45:40 PM new
BJ--
I don't know what to say, really. I feel bad that you are going through all of this and just wanted you to know that you will be in my thoughts. I sincerely hope that it all works out and that your grandmother is soon in a safe place (wherever that might be).
posted on July 17, 2001 06:33:39 PM new
Thank you, ashlandtrader, and everyone else who is watching this soap opera unfold. I used to watch one on TV a long time ago, and it's much more fun when it's happening to someone else.
Gee, now that you've all seen beyond my usual calm, rational self, will you still respect me in the morning?
posted on July 17, 2001 06:45:47 PM new
Hi BJ,these family matters can sure take a lot out of a person...I am currently going through my own hell with an Aunt, 85 years old, who has either had a stroke, needs her medications adjusted, or is dehydrated and not eating properly. She has always had a strong temperment (fiesty, cantankerous, whatever) but on my last visit, 3 days ago, she was paranoid, hyper and near hysteria. There was no way I could alleviate her unfounded fears about her grandson. Another niece and I have made arrangements for a Dr.s appointment with her daughter and the other niece present at the appt. The Doctor felt one of us should not come so that she could have someone to confide in. Since I live the furthest away (2 hours + to the Dr.'s office) the other Niece wound up with the short straw. We are all on tenterhooks, Auntie, could just tell everyone where to go and walk out. It all remains to be seen...she definitely needs help! So I wish you good luck and know how difficult this has to be on you and your Grandmother.
I'm sorry to hear of your difficulties with your aunt. Although it's not a case of abuse, the distress you and the rest of your family members feel is no less severe. If your aunt is failing for whatever reason, it sounds like some type of social service agency should be able to help. You don't mention whether she's on her own or not, but it sounds like she's in need of 24 hr. supervison right now.
But check out the medication angle. The wrong medication or dosage can do hellish things to people of all ages.
posted on July 18, 2001 05:53:38 AM new
There are a couple of issues I neglected to mention regarding finances.
My grandmother insisted on paying room and board to my uncle and aunt, which is only fair. I don't know what she started paying them, but she kept raising it until she is now currently paying $400 per month to live there, and I know myself it's been at that level for about the past 2 years. (It's double the rent my grandparents paid for a 3 bedroom house in a housing project.) She has a bedroom she can call her own, but she eats like a mouse, barely weighs a hundred pounds, and certainly doesn't use up a significant amount in utilities.
When she started coming to stay with us on the weekends, she offered me some room and board and I refused. I took no money from her for 2 years.
When she started coming on Friday evening, my aunt and uncle abdicated any responsibility for her health care. I began taking her to the doctor on Saturdays and taking her to the drugstore for her needs. When I questioned why my uncle couldn't take her once in awhile (she could just come to my home after her doctor appointment on those particular weekends I thought), I was told that my aunt said he was always too busy.
So I began to resent taking her for longer weekends and becoming responsible for all her health care needs. I discussed the situation with my mother-in-law and she said it wasn't fair that they should be getting $400 a month and I should be getting nothing when I had her from Friday at 5 PM through Sunday 7 PM and was taking on responsibility that I didn't have before.
So I discussed the situation with my grandmother and she thought it more than fair and we agreed on $25 per weekend. So she came to my home and I took no money from her from about March of 1998 through mid-February of 2000. Then in mid-February of 2000 through December of 2000, she paid me $25 per weekend. In January of 2001 she insisted on raising it to a flat $150 per month. I disagreed but she insisted. So for the first 2 months of this year she paid that. This arrangement was never in any way intended to take advantage of my grandmother. It was actually intended to help me feel less taken advantage of. I told her I wouldn't spend a penny of it, but put it aside in a special fund and if she ever needed it back for her care, it was hers in a minute. And I have kept it separate and it is untouched and told her it's hers whenever she wants it.
When the regular visits stopped my husband and I agreed that we would not take any money for just an occasional weekend.
I had told my uncle long ago that my grandmother was unhappy there and wanted to get her own place to live. He insisted that he didn't think she should be living alone. I wanted to believe that he had her best interests at heart, but I'm wondering now if it's that $400 a month they would miss the most. I find it reprehensible that they would treat her this way while receiving that amount of money each month. She's not draining their financial resources at all, she's adding to them. She pays all her own bills, too. But I wasn't sure if this could be considered a form of financial exploitation, so I didn't include that specifically in my list of complaints. If you have any opinions on that one, I'd be glad to hear them.
Also, shortly after my grandfather passed, my grandmother made her will out and put me in to inherit half of whatever might be left, if anything. I want to make it clear that I did NOT in any way influence her decision. I even told her it was a big, big mistake, that she SHOULD leave ALL her money to her son, that he's entitled to it. But she refused to have it any other way. I suggested that I should just have been a contingent beneficiary in case something happens to my uncle, but she insisted on making me a half-beneficiary up front, with my uncle as executor alone. I said, don't be surprised if they don't resent this down the line. IMO, there won't be anything to inherit anyway.
I swear that I've spoken to her many times about that will and begged her to change it and take me out of it. She refuses. I've even pointed out that since my uncle has the only copies of the will (it's a homemade job drafted using will-making software and my uncle took her to the bank to have it witnessed and notarized), that all he has to do is destroy them and I can't even prove that I would have been entitled to anything. I told her that I might not see a penny anyway, so she might as well take me out of it and that might end the bad feelings that they seem to have for me. I last tried to convince her of this last Tuesday, when I was first able to tell her about the block on my line.
I said it's quite possible that either my uncle or aunt might feel that since I'm supposed to inherit half of whatever's left, that they also might feel I should take her every weekend regardless of what we both want. I don't know and that's just a guess. But she's stubborn and won't do it and I can't make her.
Several years ago, my husband had a similar situation in his family, not with elder care, but trouble over his grandmother's will. His grandmother had left his deceased mother's share to him and his brothers equally and their 2 aunts were co-executors of the will and they were to inherit the other 2/3 equally. Well, the 1 aunt did everything possible to delay and prevent him and his brothers from inheriting what she thought should have been split between herself and her sister. Eventually, my husband's nice aunt had to have her sister forcibly removed by the courts as co-executor and she was able to distribute the estate without any further delays. The court battles over that one went on for a year.
So, I know firsthand how money issues can divide families.
posted on July 18, 2001 07:44:16 AM new
Please DO come back and tell us how it works out with APS. We have my wife's Mom at home with Alzhiener's and it is of interest to a lot of us.
posted on July 18, 2001 09:09:06 AM new
I will gravid and I feel for your situation. My great-grandmother (the mother of the grandmother I'm speaking of here) had that and I remember how difficult it was.
I just heard that APS went out yesterday afternoon. The woman couldn't stay but 10 minutes, but she apparently understood why my grandmother wouldn't let her in and left a paper instructing my aunt and uncle to schedule a time for her to return.
Then my grandmother proceeded to get upset with me because I'd called them in the first place without giving her a chance to work it out with my aunt and uncle first. I reminded her that she had enough opportunity to work it out and that my right to tell my side of the story had been interfered with and we'd already been over this the last 2 days anyway. I asked her if she didn't remember all the times since February she told me of every little argument and her claim that much of it had to do with me. She kept telling me that my uncle was mad at me, but she insisted she didn't know why. But if she even mentioned my name, he'd yell at her and refuse to talk to her. That's only one example of the kind of stuff I've been hearing over these last months. I said that naturally when she keeps telling me that either she or I am in the doghouse with my aunt and uncle, this upsets me. Then being hung up on, yelled at, and having my line blocked didn't make it any better and caused me to question how she was being treated. It made them look like they have something to hide IMO. Along with all the other stuff I've already mentioned and know to be a fact. I have that note from my aunt in which she refused to mail our anniversary card. So that is one hard piece of evidence I have that all is not right over there.
But would you believe that she swears that she never told me any of that stuff? She claims she doesn't remember those phone calls! I told her that I wasn't making any of this up and that if she was starting to not remember things then we might be dealing with a whole other issue here. Then she started yelling at me and accused me of getting her all upset and that she never even wanted to call me this week but that I was forcing her to call me every day and that she never wanted to call me in the first place! Now how can I force her to call me? I asked her to keep in touch with me and let me know when the APS person comes out and what transpires, or to let me know if she feels threatened and needs to get out in a hurry. That's exactly what I said.
So, guess what? She swore at me and hung up on me!
Yep, now the haze is beginning to clear from the picture...
So I got on the phone to APS (I'd gotten the caseworker's name yesterday) and informed the caseworker (who seems super-nice) of what had just transpired. She told me that she already felt my grandmother should be in a facility where some staff would look in on her, not just a senior apartment. I told her I could give her further information at her convenience and that I'd be available at any time to fully discuss all that I know. She said that she would go back out to the house at least a couple of more times and she would keep in touch with me about what she discovers. I actually broke down crying and said that if she could now deny things that she's told me of many times, and accuse me of instigating the trouble, (remember, I can't call her, she's calling me) then it's possible her mind is failing and she might be saying who-knows-what to them to have gotten them so mad at me. And if so, I still have the right to either confirm or deny any "stories" that have been floating about. She advised me to not take any more calls from my grandmother and to try and keep my distance from the whole situation.
So I hit the power button on the cordless phone and 2 seconds later it rings. I hit the power button again without thinking.
posted on July 18, 2001 09:21:52 AM new
OK, OK, OK, I'll tell you!
It was my grandmother calling me to apologize. And she even said that after my aunt and uncle found out someone from APS had come out, there were no arguments of any kind. My aunt was even nice to her, she claims!
So why the heck did she start telling me how miserable she feels and start blaming me for it?
And the first time she tried to call, she claimed she got a recording that said We're sorry, but the number you are calling is not accepting calls at this time. Well, that just happens to be the recording I get when I try to call my aunt and uncle's house, the same recording my grandmother heard for herself when I dialed my aunt and uncle's house and put the phone to her ear over the weekend.
So she got panicky and dialed again, thinking that I'd blocked her. Then she got a busy signal because I was on the phone with the caseworker.
I just told her the lines must have gotten crossed or something, accepted her apology, and told her that I'd been advised to not even accept her calls for awhile. She asked if she shouldn't call me anymore. I said she could still call if she wanted to. But I might not take the calls all the time, I don't know yet.
I'm wondering seriously now if she's losing her grip on reality.
posted on July 18, 2001 08:22:23 PM new
This gets sadder by the minute. Hang in there! Maybe take a break and take your kids out to a park or something tomorrow (my personal form of therapy-- chasing my girls around always wears me out and helps me clear my head.) Just don't forget to take care of yourself while all of this is going on.
Hopefully the worker can help sort out what has happened. I will keep you in my thoughts and will also watch the thread as I hope you will stay with us and let us all know the outcome. Many of us do really care!
posted on July 18, 2001 08:38:41 PM new
I must admit I have been following this thread with great interest as well as sadness too. My parents moved in with hubby & I a couple of years ago, so I've been dealing with elderly, ill parents for some time. While I don't have the issues you have BJ, I still feel I may glean some useful info from all of this! My heart goes out to you and your grandmother. This has got to be very difficult for both of you and I'm sorry it has to be this way. I really do hope everything works out and you get some real answers soon, whatever the answers may be. I think all that you have done has been done very admirably, my hat's off to you! Hang in there and please do keep us posted. We do care!!
posted on July 19, 2001 05:15:22 AM newashlandtrader and MouseSlayer,
Thanks! Since this is an issue that we all have and might face someday, I will most certainly keep you updated until this is resolved somehow.
I discussed the issue of whether or not to accept her calls with my husband last night. I was leaning strongly towards not taking them. But he reminded me that I'd told her to call if she should be in trouble and need to get out. So if I refused to pick up the phone when I hear her voice in the answering machine, then I might possibly be closing the door when she really needs help. So I've decided to take her calls and do everything possible to prevent it from escalating into an argument. My 4 year old son is potty-training and he still poops in his pants so I can always say "Sorry, I have to go cause Kyle's got poop in his pants."
However, I'm taking a new step to ensure that even if she denies saying things to me or starting an argument with me, that I have proof. I read the instruction manual on my answering machine this morning and I know now how to record both sides of a conversation. I've only got about 15 minutes of recording time, so I can record the message/conversation onto a microcassette and delete it from the answering machine. Before I deleted her message from the machine last night, I recorded it on the microcassette. It's not a conversation, but it does prove that she called me and on what day of the week. So if she denies that she's even calling me, I'll have proof that she is.
I feel kind of rotten to stoop to this level, but I don't want it to be a case of my word against hers anymore.
posted on July 19, 2001 08:44:27 AM new
Well, bunnicula, I had no luck with potty training my daughter until she was 4. I started her at 3, yet she was resistant until a few months before she turned 4 and she actually kept pooping in her pants until she was 4 1/2. I didn't start her at 2 1/2 like some parents do because that's when my son was born and I had enough to do trying to handle a new baby and a toddler all day without adding potty training into the picture.
So I started trying to potty train my son at 3 1/2 and had absolutely no luck. It's just been the last couple of months we've been able to get him to pee in the potty consistently. He turned 4 just a month ago. He actually pooped in the potty for the first time earlier this week, and we haven't been able to get him to since. He seems to have a fear of it right now.
But, hey, we all do it eventually, right?
I'm hopeful that by Christmas I won't be changing dirty pants regularly anymore.
posted on July 19, 2001 10:03:42 PM new
I'm glad you asked Bunnicula, I was thinking the same thing. But hey, we all know kids have their own schedules, right? He'll get there when he's good and ready!
BJ, there is a device out there, I think you can get it at Radio Shack, that is pretty cheap that can record phone calls. All you need is a regular tape recorder, so you can tape like 120 minutes if need be. It may come in handy if you start having heated conversations with your uncle or something. You may want to look into that.
Just remember that even if your grandmother is starting to tell stories, trying to get attention or is getting confused that if you stick by her when she needs it the most, she'll be forever grateful. Even if she can't come right out and say it. The last several months of my father's life were very difficult. He was cantankerous, Mom was bitchy and life was miserable at times (they both lived with us, at least when Dad wasn't in the hospital or nursing home). As much as I hate hospitals and as much as it got to be a pain to go see him all the time, I still did it regularly. Three days before he passed away, he said, "Thank you" to me for being there. Those words meant so much to me and I really knew that those visits made a big difference. That was enough for me, especially since such statements weren't a common thing from Dad.
posted on July 20, 2001 09:32:25 AM newMouseSlayer,
Thanks for the encouragement! He's getting there, just a little slow...
And that's why I couldn't just turn my back on the whole thing. It might have brought me some short-term peace, but long-term guilt. Instead I'm having short-term turmoil, but long-term I'll be able to look back on this and know that I did my best.
I tested out our answering machine by having my husband call me from work this morning. It works beautifully to record a conversation. Just a press of a button and you can hear both sides of a conversation. As long as I would keep it to 15 minutes or less, I'd get the whole thing. And if the conversation is heated, it would be a miracle if it lasted that long. I think it took all of half a minute or so that time my uncle yelled at me and hung up.
My microcassette tapes give me 90 minutes each. I've already recorded on tape the brief message my grandmother left on the machine from Wednesday, nothing much, just proof that she did call me that day. Just in case she tries to deny calling me at all, or something. So I'm able to erase the messages/conversations from my machine after I play them back and record them on microcassette.
But thank you for the tip! Who knows? I might need something more sophisticated someday. (Hopefully, never though.)
BTW, here's another scare I got...
I was going to reply this morning, but when I tried to log in to AW, I kept getting a message that they could't access my records in the database. For a while there, I wondered if we had to put a CC on file just to post messages!!!!
posted on July 20, 2001 11:48:35 AM new
Hang in there with your little boy. I know how you must feel...."is he ever going to get it right?" The answer is yes!
We had basically the same problem with our little girl. I swear I thought she would start school before she pooped where she was supposed to! She, for some unknown reason, would not use the potty. Then one day... POOF!....she never missed it again! He will come around.
You know also, if you under a lot of stress, which you obviously are, he can feel that in air around him so to speak, and this may be effecting him as well. Even if you try to keep everything from him, you can't do that completely.
Hippy wannabe 
~^~