posted on August 8, 2001 04:23:50 PM new
I think the main problem here is the lack of communication. There may not be a ready solution to that.
When we don't know or have the facts we can jump to all kinds of conclusions. We are inclined to think the worse. Especially if someone is telling us how bad it is!
As to the issue of the grandmother being abused or neglected. Obviously her condition did not indicate clearly that she was in "danger". The health care professionals and the social workers have determined she is mentally and physically competent enough to make her own choices.
I also know from personal experience that dehydration can occur for numerous reasons and it is common among the elderly, because they have a tendancy to not take care of themselves EVEN if they are competent to do so. It's also very difficult to get a 75+ person to eat or drink fluids when they don't want to. This is a problem even in nursing homes (know that from personal expierence too). In most longterm care facilities, if a resident doesn't eat, they just don't eat! They really do not spend much time getting them to do so, so don't think THAT is always the best solution to the problem of "how to care for Grandma"!
Unfortunately, due to the family's division, BJ may really never know what is truly going on.
posted on August 8, 2001 06:02:23 PM new
Several times you have hinted at the fact that you think your aunt and uncle are just keeping your Grandma so they can reap $400. I think you inferred they were "financially exploiting" her. You don't think that's nasty or hostile?
Furthermore, I never said you were trying to avoid "responsibility" for reporting them. I stated that I thought this probably fueled the bad feelings that alreay existed, and you suggested that they didn't know it was you who made the abuse report. Well, that's silly. Of course they know.
This sounded like a typical, predictable "family dispute"...something that most of us have probably experienced. Difference is, most folks don't bring in the state and various investigative personnel to solve "family disputes." That's where I think you crossed the line.
posted on August 8, 2001 06:21:41 PM newBJ:
I feel like we've gone on a tremendous rollercoaster ride with you. Not sure about anyone else, but I'm exhausted!
first, {{{big hugs}}}, now, my2cents:
1)In spite of the abuse you received at the hand of your mother, you have grown to become a warm/loving/giving adult & a concerned parent.
2)You have tried to give to your Grandmother the Safe Haven that she was never able to offer to you. You have opened your eyes, your ears, your heart, and your home. Those are not small things, but VERY big ones.
3)The ability to see life as reality is not a skill that all people share.
You are blessed to have it, your Grandmother is not. She is probably much more comfortable to be blind to the "black stuff" in her children. Unfortunately, you were not so privileged to have the choice to "close your eyes and hum a tune" while you grew up with abuse.
A good friend once told me "People are not always ready for the amount of honesty you deal in". A twist on "the truth hurts".
Perhaps you too are like this?
You have learned to see the reality of a situation and deal with it accordingly. It seems as though the other "players" in this game prefer denial to facing their fears.
If you'd like to write a letter to your uncle or Grandmother, why wait until you are no longer upset?
Go ahead and write to your hearts content. Get it all out.
Read them the next morning and burn them the next night
Only you know for sure what is best for you and yours at this point.
Please know that many of us out here in Cyberville are very proud of you and who believe in you, whatever your decisions may be.
{{{sorry to get so mushy}}}
val
You seem to be determined to argue your point again and again. I've taken note of the fact that you disagree with what I did, as I'm sure has everyone else who is reading this, so I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish besides that.
I notice that you did not answer any of my questions and I think that's because you know I couldn't do any of those things.
Yes, my accusation of financial explotation is nasty and hostile. I feel perfectly justified in making it because of my aunt and uncle's refusal to come clean with what might be causing my grandmother to make her accusations of their hostilities towards her. And to expect her to wait an interminably long time for medical assistance instead of calling 911 is ridiculous and irresponsible. Of course, how could I expect common sense from people who have sent her to my home when she's been so ill I had to take her to the doctor the next day? And that is not a supposition or an accusation of something I have no proof of. That is a fact.
I've never suggested they didn't know I made the report. They knew all along I made the report. What I've said is that neither my aunt, uncle, or the caseworker discussed any of the issues that my grandmother reported to me, therefore, they do not know the specific complaints made against them. But they certainly know and knew all along that I made the complaint.
I don't really care if you think I crossed the line. I've done my research. Technically, it's the law in some states that if you suspect an elderly person is being mistreated by their caregivers, you have an obligation to report it. Of course, it would be hard to prove that I knew about it. I could simply deny having been told anything and I would have been off the hook.
You seem focused on my accusation of financial explotation to the exclusion of everything else: my grandmother being denied the right to see who she wishes when she wishes; being yelled at; being screamed at; being given the silent treatment; being forbidden visitors; the right of her other siblings to know that she was in the hospital; being forced to throw her clothes out; etc.
And you seem to gloss over the fact that this is not all hearsay. Or are you also accusing me of lying about the things that my uncle and aunt said to me themselves before they refused to speak to me?
1. They've told me themselves that my grandmother is in the way at their house.
2. They've told me themselves that they made her throw most of her stuff out, even personal stuff, referring to it as junk.
3. I have the note my aunt wrote, which I happen to think is pretty nasty.
If I went back through all the posts, I could probably find more instances of facts and not just hearsay.
Bottom line: My aunt and uncle got nasty first.
And when my grandmother's personal safety and emotional well-being was at stake, I had every right to bring the APS into it whether you agree with it or not.
You put it so well and thank you for your kindness.
Multiply the ups and downs you've felt throughout this 10-fold and that will give you some idea of what I've felt. You can only take so much of that before you have to back off.
I've tried so hard to not be my mother that I'm sometimes too lenient with my kids.
My grandmother does not face reality very well and for that I feel sorry for her. I know that's why she wouldn't/couldn't help me years ago. And why she's unable to help me to help her now.
Get as mushy as you want to. If more people did we wouldn't have such hostile situations as this. People keep eveything bottled up inside too much.
posted on August 8, 2001 07:02:42 PM newBJ:
Not everyone who reaches out to you is really looking for help.
I don't think Grandma knows how to accept help, nor does she really want it.
IMHO, many people who are miserable actually want to remain miserable rather than face the challenges in front of them. It becomes a comforting way of life.
I hope you can expend your energy on the one's who need it (your little rugrats!) rather than those who reject it (or ^^those who question your intentions^^, hmmm, nuff said about that!)
No matter how many times you get it slapped, you still keep reaching out your hand.
It is okay to back off when you have had enough.
posted on August 8, 2001 07:39:55 PM new
BJ, it sounds like you came from a very dysfunctional family. The time comes where you have to ask yourself if you want to continue and participate in that dysfunction. Do you want YOUR family to be exposed to it? You're out of that now. Move forward for your sake and your family's. The next time your grandmother starts with her act, just tell her "You're on your own now, Toots!". And that will be that.
After reading "the rest of the story," I find my views have changed.
Your mother abused you as a child. The abuse took place over a long space of time, in your Grandmother's home. Your Grandmother was aware of it and chose to hide it, allowing the abuse to continue.
That is horrible, evil, and disgusting.
For the pain you have endured, the horrible days, and all the abuse, I send (((HUGE HUGS))) to the child inside you.
Please do not allow those people to torture you anymore. You have many loving relatives ~ reach out to them. They, in turn, will reach out to you. Enjoy the love you have been cheated out of as a child.
Sit down and write them each a letter. In in tell them exactly how you feel, how they have hurt you, how what they have done affected your life. You can choose to either mail them or burn them, but seal as much of the bad stuff inside that you can. It will only eat at you if you let it.
Now, go and give each of your children a hug and a kiss and let them know how you feel about them. They are your life, and you have done really well with your family.
Finally, whenever you make a decision regarding your Grandmother and your Aunt and Uncle, ALWAYS keep yourself and your family first in your thoughts. Then, make whatever decision you feel comfortable with and sleep well at night, knowing how much your family loves you.
Remember ~ those three can only continue to hurt you if you let them. And, given the chance, I am sure they will.
posted on August 8, 2001 11:38:29 PM new
No, I'm not determined to do one thing or another, or accomplish anything; I don't have the time or inclination and my family comes first. You asked for input about a "family dispute," which I gave. If you'd wanted validation, alone, you should have said so.
Anyway, there is much about this thread and your comments that I find strange, which led me to my conclusion, but there's no point in discussing it further, obviously.
Good luck...hope you get it figured out.
spelling
[ edited by julesy on Aug 8, 2001 11:50 PM ]
posted on August 9, 2001 12:13:28 AM new
BJ - I'm sorry you had to go though all this.
I think you did right by calling in authorities. People are always told if you suspect abuse of a child or the elderly you should report it. How many times have you heard someone say they thought something was wrong but didn't do anything because they didn't want to get involved? Then they feel quilty when something tragic happens?
You did all you could now give all your attention to your own family. Forget that aunt and uncle you have other relatives that you are close to. Tell your grandmother she has an open invitation to visit, and if she wants to come, the ball is in her court, but you won't bring it up again.
I know it's hard to just listen to her complaints, but I've gone though this with my mother. She tells me she has a problem. I try to help, but I found out she really doesn't want a resolution. She just wants me to listen! So as difficult as it is that's what I do. But, if it get's to the point where I really have to step in and take over, I won't hesitate to do so.
Good luck to you.
posted on August 9, 2001 03:57:57 AM new
Thanks everyone for the hugs and all the good wishes!
Now I'm off to take your advice and get back to my family and the auction biz. As you might imagine, the biz has been slipping lately, (but not the family).
Take care and I thank God for the wonderful people at AW!
posted on August 16, 2001 02:26:45 PM new
Last Friday I wrote and mailed that letter to my uncle. I kept the tone of it calm and stuck to the facts as I knew them. As expected, I've received no acknowledgement and I'm still blocked from calling.
My grandmother called me a total of 8 times in 3 days and I ignored all her phone messages while trying to figure out where I wanted to go from here.
I finally picked up today and we had a good heart to heart talk. To my surprise, the caseworker had been to the house yesterday, although I'd previously understood that the case would have been closed by then. Oh well. Maybe her hospital stay did allow them to keep it open despite what I'd been told, I don't know.
Anyway, the caseworker said she intended to still stop by a couple more times and that she still intended to talk to me to get my side of the story. I feel good about that and also about a couple of other things.
First, the caseworker asked my uncle directly whether he thought we could all sit down together to work this out. He flatly refused. While this is sad on the one hand, I'm at least glad that the caseworker tried to mediate and that she heard straight from him their unwillingness to resolve these issues.
Second, I told my grandmother that while I still loved her, I cannot allow myself or my family to be dragged into their personal problems any longer and that I regretted having become involved in the first place. When they started having problems getting along 3 years ago I should have said, well, I'm sorry, but you all made this decision without my involvement, now you fix it or live with it, perhaps not in those words, but... I told her that in future, she should call the caseworker if she perceives that she's not being treated well. That way, it's not just a bunch of hearsay from me, they'll get it direct from her. And I won't have to hear it all the time and be upset at my inability to do anything anyway.
I also told her that she didn't need to call me so often, particularly as often as 3 times a week as she's been doing. We honestly don't have that much to talk about that often and the conversations have predominantly been about the troubles she perceives she's been having. I told her I needed a break from all of this and her constant calls don't allow me to have that.
So, as far as getting their side of the story, I can't promise anything. I'd like to but my grandmother insists that neither my aunt or uncle will tell the caseworker anything. They allow her into their house because they have to by law, but that's it. Other than that, there's no communication or cooperation coming from them to her. I would think that only makes them look worse, which isn't too smart on their part.
The only thing I've been told is what I've said before. I'm not taking her on the weekends anymore and they're not interested in any sort of compromise. It's either their way or no way. The fact that she doesn't want to come, or that I don't want to have her each and every weekend, is irrelevant. According to what my grandmother says, that really is the sole issue to them.
My grandmother still hopes that they'll change their minds someday and decide to work things out. I told her that would be nice, but I'm not counting on it.
So, what lessons have I learned from all this?
1. Take great care when offering to involve yourself actively in domestic disputes between family members. It puts you on the hook forever (in their minds anyway) and they'll make you pay if you don't do what they think you should be doing to help them out.
2. I'd already dug a hole for myself by violating lesson #1. But, if instead of saying, that's it for awhile and we'll work something out later, it might have been better to make them responsible for coming up with a solution before the whole thing got so bad. Of course, it might not have worked anyway since they want all or nothing.
3. Think of what you have to lose vs. what you have to gain before getting involved. Ask yourself, if this person I'm trying to help wasn't my relative, would I choose to associate with this person and have them as a friend or neighbor? If the answer is no, then don't risk what you have and make yourself nearly sick over it.
4. Ask yourself another question about the people who are supposedly doing wrong by the person complaining to you. If over the years you've grown apart and barely see each other, even though there may be no discernable cause for it, question their motives when all of a sudden they want you to help. They're not interested in re-establishing their relationship with you by any means and when you no longer prove useful, they'll slam the door so fast in your face your nose will get windburned!
I'm on good terms with my grandmother right now and she says she understands my position and understands why I'm backing off. Now she's hoping to get together by Halloween! Well, at least I'll have a couple of months of relative peace anyway!
posted on August 17, 2001 06:40:17 AM newBJ:
So glad you've found a balance in all of this.
I hope you don't feel you did anything wrong
>>>I should have said, well, I'm sorry...<<<
You did what you had to do for yourself and your family,
You tried.
No coulda/woulda/shoulda's apply here.
You did Great!
Best of Luck to you!
val
posted on August 17, 2001 12:41:34 PM new
Thanks, MrsSC and zoomin.
I like to think that sometimes bad things happen for a good reason. Right now I don't know what that could be, but I hope that my experience with this might help others who are facing a similar situation or those who might face a similar situation someday. If so, then it's good enough for me.
