posted on August 10, 2001 09:10:05 PM new
In California, the money goes to the school beaurocracy(sp). The Superintendants salary is $140,000. The Chancellor of Education is one million dollars (with perks). They just hired a retired Navy person to be chief business officer for over $160,000. It's obscene. The TEACHER's are the ones who should be paid the high salaries. They are the ones that do the work. The beaurocats are the ones who sit around and come up with dumbass ideas on how to tinker with teaching the kids. The teachers ALREADY KNOW how to teach, if they'd just be left alone to do it. Guess these idiots have to justify their ridicuous salaries.
KatyD
geeze, I can't spell beaurocrats right, so I'll just have to leave it.
[ edited by KatyD on Aug 10, 2001 09:14 PM ]
posted on August 10, 2001 09:17:58 PM new
lotsafuzz, That list looks pretty reasonable.
But the bit with the calculators burns me. Try to find a TI-XX (which ever one the local school board thinks is required to do first year algebra this year.) Think Wal-Mart is going to run a special on them when the school board just told 1000 parents they had to buy one?
And I still think the math would "sink in" better if they would trash calculators in basic math classes.
I hear all about "the other side of the desk" from my sister. She's taught in Public Schools, and now teaches in a Juvenile Detention Center. (bet you think you have some rowdy kids in your class, 'eh?)
posted on August 10, 2001 09:24:29 PM new
I agree that school bureaucracies are laden with over paid desk jockeys.
When we were in Turkey, one year the supplies didn't arrive until two weeks after school was slated to start. School wasn't called off on account of no supplies. It started as usual and went on as usual. The only reason the kitten had any notebook paper and a couple packets of pencils was I had planned ahead and bought 'em while stateside.
Your list isn't unreasonable, Fuzzy, but the kittens weren't in your class. Please don't assume that just because your school district is one way that ALL school districts are the same way. Heck, even schools within the same district can be different.
posted on August 10, 2001 09:37:42 PM new
I can remember teaching my little niece Geometry because she was fascinated with
the idea of regular shapes and measuring and describing them long before her classes
were doing anything more than addition subtraction and division. I knew that if
someone did not supply her desire it would have long burnt out by the time the school
system got around to her level of ability.
What I am remembering is that we did a great job that summer covering plane and
solid geometry with a lot of little side trips into
topography and clearing up the difference between some things a lot of adults don't
seem to know like the difference between ordinal and cardinal numbers, and explored
such wonders of imagination as Mobius strips and Klien bottles with some paper, a
couple pencils, and some scotch tape and a 39 cent compass.
I suspect that most of the things she readily learned at 10 would be regarded as High
School material and would require all sorts of expensive models and computer graphics
to teach.
posted on August 11, 2001 02:03:03 AM new
Ok, here's what happens in my son's school district. (In good ol' Texas) He goes to school the first day of 4th grade with ALL the required supplies. (That I spent over a week and about $100 on) On the list is "10 folders". He has them, and he spent considerable (maddening!) time picking out the ones he liked. At the end of the day, he brings me a note from the TEACHER, saying that in her class, the folders have to be certain colors! The cute ones he had with puppies and skateboards on them would not work, and he MUST have the 10 different colors by the next day!(His folders held papers just as well as the ones she wanted!) I went and got the damn folders, and wouldn't you know it...the whole year, he only uses 3 of them! Not a huge expense, but it was a power trip. What am I gonna do? Refuse, and make him fight the battle. I tried to talk to her, but there was no bending of HER rules.
This year, 7th grade. Approximatly $160 for his list to be filled, if I did it by the book. (Which I won't!) The dictionary he has to have has to be HARDBACK!!! (Teacher is very adamant about this. Still can't give a reason, other than "It's on the list"!) His paperback from last year is apparently evil or something! Oh, I know...his teacher doesn't think he will build enough character by carrying a 30 pound backpack! Gotta throw another 10 pounds in there. Fortunatly my son is starting to understand the absurdity of all of this. He is refusing to let me buy the hardback dictionary. Yep, he's developing a bad attitude towards school. I'm sure that's my fault, according to his teacher. I'm so tired of it. Oh, and here's another kicker. During the summer, his new school voted to go with uniforms. Since I was working all summer, I apparently wasn't in the right loop. I found out about this after spending several hundred dollars on new school clothes, none of which he can wear now. Fury doesn't even begin to describe how I feel right now...
Fuzzy, please try not to take what everyone is saying as a personal attack. You showed a reasonable, efficient list of basic school supplies. You seem to care about the kids in your area. But, surely you know that there are other teachers, schools, districts, and states that are spinning out of control. I look at each teacher and judge them on an induvidual basis. (I wish they showed my son the same) I sometimes feel like the education system thinks that I am second in command when it comes to my son. I understand your need to jump in, and defend the system. If someone posted something that said they had a run in with a moronic paramedic, so they all must be morons, I'd be the first on it. But, I also know that yes, there are some idiots in my field, and wouldn't take the attack personally. Keep doing a good job. You seem to be a rare breed these days.
posted on August 11, 2001 04:51:31 AM new
School supplies? That's nothing; if the teacher wants them to have it, they get it. Who am I to argue?
Plus, I have bigger problems. My eight year old is pretty adamant that she "needs" leather pants for school...(of course, she'll never get them, but that doesn't stop her from trying)
spellin'
[ edited by julesy on Aug 11, 2001 04:53 AM ]
posted on August 11, 2001 06:20:34 AM new
My son's list for 5th grade has 32 different items on it. 32, for goodness sake!!! Things have gone way past ridiculous.
posted on August 11, 2001 06:21:22 AM new
I'll give you all a little hint on how these expenses are handled in the upper income areas.
Our children have two sets of books. One at school and one that stays here at our home. This is the same for the whole district. No need for book bags.
There are no fees or supplies to buy unless it is for a special individualized project. Everything is paid for and supplied by the schools. And the school gets huge discounts by buying these supplies in bulk.
All of these things are paid for through our property taxes, a portion ( actually the lion's share) of our property taxes are for the support of our schools. We vote to assess these property taxes.
Now for the bomb. Those who have enough income and deductions ( which is everyone in our district ) file a schedule A and all of our property taxes are deductable.
The result ? - 38% of the money we pay to support our school system comes right back to each individual tax payer from the Federal government due to income reductions from the property taxes. Between the tax refunds and the discounts for buying supplies in bulk, supplies are very cheap. Oh, by the way, we also get to deduct all our mortgage interest up to $1 million.
That's why I vote Republican. That's why I support the Moral Majority, and all the right wing religious issues nuts in our party. We tell them we are on their side and get (read steal) their votes. Then we actually do nothing for them, but we get to rape the poor while our children get a better education, better health care, and a better living environment. Not to mention the Wal-Mart stock I bought with my tax refund !! Looks like I'll buy some more with my Bush tax rebate to get more of the poor folks school supplies money.
PLEASE, ALWAYS VOTE REPUBLICAN - REMEMBER WE ARE YOU MORAL ALLIES. I NEED YOU POOR FOLKS TO PAY FOR MY KIDS COLLEGE EDUCATION !!! I HOPE YOU NEVER WISE UP !!!
EDITED TO ADD- WE REPUBLICANS ALSO GOT YOUR EARNED INCOME CREDIT TAKEN AWAY- MORE MONEY FOR US !!!!
posted on August 11, 2001 12:07:25 PM new
The list here is not to be believed.
At least the PTA got on the Band Wagon for the past few years.
Rather than run to twenty different stores (who, BTW, aren't given *The List* to properly plan their ordering), pre-packaged school supplies can be purchased through the PTA prior to the first days of classes.
Ordered in bulk, I pay less than I would at Target, don't have to run around like a lunatic (which I do enough of anyway), and the PTA gets to make a couple bucks.
The check was $132 this year for my second and fourth grader. Luckily, most of the families here can afford that.
The hard part comes on the first day of school when the teachers distribute their own lists. POLAROID film, ziploc bags, Rubbermaid containers, cleaning supplies, antibacterial gel...I'll let you know what else it entails in a few weeks!
*sigh*
One of the local "warm fuzzies"...
Major businesses "adopt" a not-so-fortunate school district and have drop boxes to contribute to. Sorta like the Santa boxes at Christmas. Seems the "other" schools aren't quite so picky. In addition to other goodies, we donate last years "not used but on the list" supplies at BJ's.
In addition to finding out how ridiculous the lists can be, my kids learn the importance of helping others and the gift of giving.
* Sure wish more Big Business would get involved *
posted on August 11, 2001 12:53:35 PM new
I have noticed more involvement from the business community. Our local K-Marts have distributed register-swipe cards that contribute 5% of our purchase amount to schools in our area - We even select which school we want to benefit from this program. I'm not sure if this is a national K-Mart campaign. I feel it most likely is.
I've seen commercials that one of the major office supply chains (I think OfficeMax?) has a similar program in effect.
Yes, it's the very same commercial that has the husband punching numbers to get the household expenditures budgeted while his schoolteacher wife is having to spend their money on school supplies for her students.
Three cheers for our educators
Rosie
*There is no conclusive evidence that life is serious*
posted on August 11, 2001 03:18:44 PM new
Pat, To answer your question about the family that needs the Webster's, I did check around but at $9.99 each plus $4.?? shipping X 2 $24.?? was the best that I could find. I considered second hand but to pay shipping twice made it even more. No one that I found has 2 used copies.
**********
What do you all think of tax credits for homeschoolers? Our first year I spent $650 on a curriculum package for one child. Now that I have wised up, I buy second hand and spend only about $450 for both kids with some added effort and shuffling and substituting.
The homeschool legal groups are against it because any funding involvement means more regulation. I know this isn't exactly "on the table" at the moment.
Or what if the "corporate involvement" that some suggested applied to homeschoolers too?
Or what if public schools made textbooks/workbooks available to homeschoolers on request? Private schools here charge a $150 "workbook fee". Homeschoolers buy their own. Public schoolers get them free. I actually bought one workbook that was $50.
Should they be allowed to participate in sports, band, etc.?
We are already out of the schools so we are not "spending" within the school system and yet we are still paying for public education in tax dollars.
The real question is, do homeschoolers in some fashion deserve to get ANY benefit of their tax dollars?
Or should it be "your tough luck"?
Since most of you appear to have kids in public school (which is fine) I just wondered how you all felt about it.
Statistics: According to a study released this month by the Education Department, about 850,000 of the United States' 50 million schoolchildren are being taught at home.
Personally, I am WILLING to bite the bullet in return for freedom. But when government starts to interfere in anyway...then I want my piece of the $$ pie. In some states, government is already over the line.
posted on August 11, 2001 06:28:30 PM new
In the State of Kentucky,we are taxed on our property tax for schools,Our telephone bill for schools,local tax for schools,and part of our State Lottery goes for schools.And now instead of parents being able to buy their kids back to school clothes,they get to fill these lists of crap that should never have been bought.I think crayons,magic markers,colored pencils,glue and such is totally stupid and praise the lord I no longer have to supply these items and then teach the kids when they get home what they should have learned in class,and I have done that many times in the last ten years.I am sorry but there is something bad wrong with this picture which make this a hot topic with me.I am not downing teachers,but something needs to be changed here.Our future kids are being sucked up in the very forces we are trying to conquer.
posted on August 11, 2001 07:00:05 PM new
We homeschool -- which I mention so you know what our background is before I spout off opinions on this stuff. Our children are 10 and 13.
Our local school district has a 15 to 30 item list of required supplies (depending on the grade) posted at our local K-Mart and Wal-Mart. We don't have any local office supply stores. The list does state what brands are considered most appropriate though parents are permitted to make choices besides the recommended brands. They are required, from grade 2, to have calculators. Seems excessive to me -- but what do I know? I'm teaching mine differently -- and so have different needs in the way of materials than do the schools, I guess.
Terri -- in some states homeschooled kids are permitted to participate in sports, band, etc. I'm not sure if they are here in NC -- but my reasons for not having my children in school here would keep me from allowing them to participate in activities run by our local schools so I've never had cause to find out. We're also permitted to borrow textbooks -- but again, I removed my 13 year old from the schools locally for a reason and have no particular desire to use their materials. I think the tide is turning nationally. I'd expect homeschool families to be permitted more use of school resources in the future -- as our numbers grow so will our ability to influence local policy. BTW -- if you haven't checked out Joy Hakim's The History of US, consider it worth lookin' at. We've been using these books in our history lessons and enjoy them very much.
posted on August 11, 2001 07:48:21 PM new
Got it X! That's how I spent my $150 MCI gift certificate a while back. We will be using it in just a bit. Right now we are doing Ur, Greece, Rome, etc.
I waiver to and fro on the school participation thing. We are not ready for it yet but I do think that some involvement in group activities would be a plus in certian circumstance or for certian kids. Sports are important to some families, especially with boys. Band for us would be a plus. I might like my daughter to take a class in high school for notetaking experience and just to be exposed to a classroom situation before college. (But then maybe we will home college for the first two years?)
As for the books, I have a Sharpie and scissors. Could fix them right up.
(Seriously, they do use Saxon Math. I would take that and save $50 a year per kid.)
On the other hand... they could just give me the cash? But if it comes with strings, forget it.
T
posted on August 13, 2001 01:28:17 AM new
When my oldest daughter's teacher allowed calculators to be used in school was the last year she went to school. It was 6th grade and she finished school at home. Her sister joined the next year after her 6th grade, and the little one I pulled after 5th grade. No tax-break, no assist from the county or the school district.
We winged it. I read John Holt. We joined a senior horticultural club. (all 4 of us!) They raised rabbits and chickens which we ate some and sold some. We had a huge garden. We visited every city/county park and refuge in Napa, Solano, Alameda, Sacramento counties (Calif). We went to Grand Canyon in a pop-up VW bus. We camped out at Avila Beach, San Luis Obispo. We camped out at Half Moon Bay, Stinson, Bodega and Shell Beaches.
One daughter worked for a restaurant as ROP part-time, then later for a vet. One worked as a groomer at the city pound and prettied up a heap of doggies and helped them find homes. (They actually gave her, at 14 yrs old, her own room with sink, table and cages and equipment!) They learned to make bread from scratch. They learned to sew. We never had cable and TV was very limited. We never ever had new clothing, just underwear & shoes & socks new. We had all we could eat. They had their Mom and their grandparents and greatgrandparents. They had pets. they were as safe as I could manage.
The two older started college at 16 years old and loved it. The #2 daughter was the first college graduate in the whole family, even going way back.
This is just the bare bones, of course there are lots of details. We almost lived at the library (ies). WHAT edition of the dictionary? Any one we could get our hands on. The one at our home was (and still is) a 1951 Webster. None of my now adult kids are on welfare or have ever been arrested or homeless or even a lengthy period without a job.
posted on August 13, 2001 01:57:56 AM new
An example of cultural differences...
My daughter in in 3rd grade and in relatively small government school (300 children). While some schools have lists, ours does not.
Instead I pay an annual classroom resource fee of $70AU (that's about $35US - and if I pay within a month I get a $5 discount). This amount is supplemented by an additional $15/child contribution from our school Parents & Citizens Association (like your PTA). There are 19 children in my daughter's class (a composite of 3s and 4s) so if every parent paid, the teacher would have a budget of $1615AU max. The class teacher is responsible for supplying everything - books, pens, pencils, erasers, calculators , rulers, everything she requires for the year from this budget. Library, shared supplies (dictionaries and the like), photocopying, computer/internet, sports, building and maintenance requirements are funded jointly by our State Government and fundraising by the P&C.
Not all parents pay (but most do given that it's a much cheaper alternative than having to buy stuff ourselves) and the school allows, and to an extent encourages, lower income families to pay in installments.
The children certainly don't miss out on anything - my daughter's classroom is well equipped with excellent resources. (Though her teacher did tell them today the rate the coloured pencils were disappearing they were obviously eating them or something and the children either needed to bring more lunch or bring their own pencils!)
I knew I had it easy but I didn't realise just how easy until reading this thread.
posted on August 13, 2001 05:26:06 AM new(But then maybe we will home college for the first two years?)
I expect that only one of mine will go to college - though I could be wrong. Its something they'll have to figure out as they mature and begin making these decisions. However, by the time they've made it to college age (16 or so), they'll have learned physics with calculus, studied literature, learned enough Spanish to converse with our local hispanic population, interned in at least two different businesses, and more. There's more to life than college. My intent in homeschooling is to prepare my children to be the all they'd choose to be.
Terri, the JC Penney story is distressing. Semi-locally a pizza place made a delivery which included a religous tract. The tract told of how Catholics are no more than the devil's helpmates. The pizza was delivered to a quilting circle meeting at the local Catholic church. When confronted, the fella distributing the tracts said he meant no harm. You gotta wonder what folks are thinking sometimes.
posted on August 13, 2001 05:44:17 AM new
If you think having your child in private school avoids this..let me assure you it doesn't.
Our daughter has been in private school since kindergarten and each year the list was MAJOR brand name. I guess they decided if you could afford their tuition, you could afford the supplies. Since it was a school w/major focus on academics, we just grit our teeth and fill the list.
But, the list rarely changed from year to year, so when all the stuff went on sale after school started (and I mean the DEEP discounts Wal-Mart puts on them), I just stocked up for the next year for pennies.
However, I was in for a culture shock when she moved to a public high school this year. Locker Fees??? Gym Clothes Fees??? Fees for every Honors Class??? WHEN did all THIS start happening in public schools?
I can well afford the fees (after private school tuition..I feel positively giddy) but there ARE people in our area that are downright dirt poor. How the heck can they pay these types of costs?
Okay, so I went to school in a cave, when there weren't "fees" except for the occasional donation of a sabre tooth tiger to the lunch program but I was quite bemused to see the "food court" arrangement the school has..I may go there myself and eat every day! Parents "fund" their kids accounts in advance and the Student ID also works as a "debit card" when they buy breakfast or lunch. Kind of neat!
I know this sounds horrid, but I purchased a new cell phone for my daughter and drilled in to her to have it w/her at all times. There have been too many school "incidents" in the past and I wanted to make sure she could always get in touch with me or 911. Is it a terrible sign of the times?
I admire your home school efforts. Actually, although my children attended public school, I had the same intense interest in their education. In other words, I did not leave it up to the school alone.
Taking care of my children was my only job and as a result, they were
always advanced...attending college before they graduated from high school etc.
This is not a criticism but a question. Don't you believe that being with other children and adults in the neighborhood is an invaluable learning experience also. Is home schooling as isolated as I am envisioning it...especially in a small town?
Apparently you are serious about the home school college degree. Do you believe that your children will be at a disadvantage when they have to indicate on their resume that they received their college degree at home?
You addressed your question to xifene and I don't home school but I wanted to add some comments.
Isolation isn't necessarily a given in home schooling situations. There was a home schooled young lady at the stable where we used to ride. She had plenty of friends in both the neighborhood and through riding. Very well balanced young lady because her parents made sure to include a social aspect.
Her friends attended public schools and she was always invited to join them at dances, sports events and functions.
My daughter competes nationally in equestrian sports and has a fairly heavy training schedule (we train 4-6 days a week) and are often gone on weekends to shows or clinics. Then we are gone from 4-6 weeks during the winter to train in Florida.
Unfortunately, virtually none of her school peers are into any kind of serious training much less equestrian. This does tend to isolate her and often leaves her with nothing in common w/other kids her age.
But when we attend a horseshow, she's quickly surrounded by competitors of all ages and nationalities who look upon her as an equal & give her tons of support and companionship.
So it's not just home schoolers that can end up being a bit isolated. We try to encourage school participation as much as possible, but, bluntly, because she's so focused on her competitive efforts, it's hard to relate to peers squeeling over the latest Brittney Spears album. (maybe I should be grateful!).
posted on August 13, 2001 06:53:09 AM new
When i was graduated from High School my Uncle offered to send me to any University I cared to go to and he would support me and take care of my expenses. I had had my fill and a little more of institutions of learning and the crazy inmates they contain. I have never regretted making my own way and never had any problem finding a source for academic
materials when there was something I wanted to study. Finding sources for practical instruction in such things as metal working is another matter. If there is money to be made in a specialty it can be hard to find out the details. An example? - Try finding out how to hone or lap the precision gages machinists use flat and parallel to within a couple ten millions of an inch. You won't find the information at your public library most places. You usually need to work in a shop to really find out how it is done.
[ edited by KatyD on Aug 10, 2001 09:14 PM ]
Our children are 10 and 13.