posted on September 25, 2001 02:56:17 PM
I never realized we had so many blame thyself rape victims in this country.
Bin Laden is a man worth hundreds of millions of dollars. He is familiar with and benefits from the capitalist system. Don't fool yourself. He hates us because he is also a religious fanatic and history has shown us that religous fanatics excel in hatred and often turn to violence and cruelty. He hates us because of that and because we're a [the] superpower and that's contrary to his theology. There isn't a damn thing we can do about it except to convert to Islam, tear up the constitution and institute an extreme and literal form of sharia as the law of the land.
If you don't believe me, read his programmes. He doesn't hide his position at all.
An alternative to conversion which he may accept enough to leave us alone in the future would be the total collapse of our economy and culture and the transformation of America into a miserable third world country. These Harry Brown people are so smug that they think they know what goes in other people's heads. Why doesn't he, you know, read what the bin Laden's say they want and why they hate America.
Be realistic. Our middle east policies have never been a thousandth as brutal as our policies in Vietnam, for example. Yet, no Vietnamese ever flew airplanes into skyscrapers or even commited any acts of violence against American civilians. If we're going to honestly examine our own record we will see that there are many peoples who perceive themselves as aggrieved by America and none of them turn to this utterly barbaric approach. Why not?
Therein lies the difference. Aggrieved or not, nothing we've done provokes what has happened as a valid or reasonably expected consequence and no remediation of our foreign policies will save your city and your friends from being the next victim of these poor oppressed people who really do love freedom and are brotherly in spirit, but simply hate imperialism.
And, there are several articles in this link by Rabbi Michael Lerner that support the same anti-war policy
Ah, this clown. The man for whom the phrase 'self-hating Jew' might have been coined.
[ edited by jamesoblivion on Sep 25, 2001 03:02 PM ]
posted on September 25, 2001 03:37:16 PM
The Swiss, whom HJW seems to admire have also been called to account about the many accounts they accepted from the Third Reich during WWII and we know who those monies and goods belonged to, don't we Helen?
posted on September 25, 2001 03:45:52 PM
Several pages back in this thread, the source of our keen (read: economic) interests in the Middle East -- namely, OIL -- was mentioned. While some could explain why we (read: Exxon, Bristish Petroleum) cling so tightly to our "alliances' there, no one really tackled the vast stores of unpiped oil our neighbor, Mexico, holds. Mexico has LOST money on its oil reserves, while we've continued our (now seemingly dubious) relations in some Middle Eastern countries to continue their flow -- perhaps financing enterprises to our detriment in the process.
krs, have you read up on the Mexican oil situation, beyond the obvious that Mexico owns its own oil and we (Exxon) don't, and therefore don't/won't use it?
posted on September 25, 2001 03:50:57 PM
I have to say James, that makes me wretch, just the way watching those planes on television made me SICK. It is almost impossible for me to maintain any decorum when faced with talk that indicates that it is OK.
posted on September 25, 2001 04:25:17 PM
Being the current affairs expert that I am (NOT), I really enjoy reading all your opinions on this. There are some really intelligent people on this board and I feel like I learn a lot by just reading what you have to say. I can be away for weeks at a time and this is still the first place I come to. When this all first happened a couple weeks ago, my first thought was "Let's BOMB them off the face of the earth"!! Now I'm thinking .... what good will it do to use million dollar jet fighters to bomb a ten dollar tent? All we're going to do is kill everybody EXCEPT for the one we're really after- bin Laden. And how are we EVER gonna catch all the cells of followers right here in the US? I don't see how bombing them over there is going to stop this terrorism against us, I really don't. (Man, I've really changed my tune from 2 weeks ago).
posted on September 25, 2001 05:55:35 PM
So many Nostradamas in one generation! My! And to hear the dire threats of the consequence of nuclear conflict within the middle east if they are left be from the very same mouths who weigh the benefit of the US solving the problem with nuclear devices is amusing too. Is it a rehash of the old phrase "my s*** don't stink" that brings such reasoning? Our weapons are somehow more pure than the ones that could be concocted there?
One thing that all agree on though is that ben laden is a dangerous genius. Don't be too surprised to find when all is said and done that the US has hired him under contract as part of the settlement deal.
posted on September 25, 2001 06:17:43 PM
James, sorry I did take a break, I was not misreading you at all, I was thinking about some comments made in this and other threads.
posted on September 25, 2001 06:30:36 PM
And if we did all convert and made it an Islamic state here what do you want to bet we would still not be pure enough?
I mean if they view Saudi Arabians as too slack and not up to par to be REAL Muslims what chance do we have? They reject most of their "brothers".
You get this stuff in all religions.
Most of the Jews that live here in America are not considered REAL Jews by the Orthodox in Isreal. They don't even regard rheir marraiges as valid. I had a Morman tell me most mormans are not REALLY Mormans unless they have been through a ceremony at the temple in Utah and wear this special underwear believe it or not.
The Lutheren preacher would not set foot in our house when I was a boy because my Grandmother was a pow wow lady. I still remember what I could not understand was he did not like ME because of it and I could not figure out what it had to do with me.
Seems like most people have a need to feel they are special by excluding others.
posted on September 25, 2001 06:44:07 PMAnd to hear the dire threats of the consequence of nuclear conflict within the middle east if they are left be from the very same mouths who weigh the benefit of the US solving the problem with nuclear devices is amusing too.
I'd like to clarify that while in my previous post I spoke to "the consequence of nuclear conflict within the middle east if they are left be," I have never suggested the US use nuclear weapons as a means of "solving the problem."
posted on September 25, 2001 07:12:34 PM
Your position on that issue has always been clear, I think, spaz, though others have not been so consistent.
You know terrorism is not new. From earliest times, each new technological invention or strategy which gave an opposing group an advantage produced terror until it gradually became conventional. The difference today is the enormous complexity of understanding and controlling our technological advances, almost any of which can be used as weapons, and many of which have incredible destructive capabilities.
posted on September 25, 2001 08:25:59 PM
Yes, in other words, Spaz, "It's not ALL about you". LOL!
But Dan is quite right in saying that there have been some inconsistencies.
For some of you, those who are young and full of words of committment, I wonder why you haven't done anything about your beliefs. Specifically James--isn't it time to follow the footsteps of thousands of other young Jews from around the world and go and enlist in the aid of Israel?
Hemingway said it, didn't he? That the young must take part in the actions of their time. Something like that. I know that it was thoughts like that that took me to the Army, and then to volunteer to go to Vietnam. It was what was happening, like it or not, and there was no way that I could sit on my hands and miss it. I didn't know what I know know of course; I only knew that I had to go. No other option was viable, and no persuasion could have kept me from it.
For the rest, us elderly sages, can we just stick to what we do know and leave all of the predictions of doom to gloomy old women who must shout to be heard at all?
To Gravid--good luck on your novels, but from what I see in your posts I'd say that your books have precedent in boring repetition by the likes of Mickey Spillane. Besides, if it is novels who do you expect will buy and read them if your every word tends to give away the plots.
posted on September 25, 2001 08:39:40 PM
Meaning what? What do you know of how I do or do not support Israel? Are you saying, for example, that I shouldn't live in America because I like another country too?
If Israel needs my physical presence to defend it apart from its standing army of over one million, I'll be there. If America needs my physical body to defend it, I'm right here. I registered with selective services when I was 18, they know where I live. I can assure you I won't be running to Canada.
A pity that you have to resort to "so get the hell out" rhetoric to make your point, whatever it might be.
That was not 'get the hell out' rhetoric at all. It was a question and it was brought by the sorts of feelings that I had during another stressful time. You've taken me completely wrong, but I don't think that that's my fault. The issues at hand must be stirring deep feelings in the young throughout the country and perhaps doubly so for you and other young Jews. That is what I've addressed, and that only. I'd be one of the last to wish you to leave.
posted on September 25, 2001 09:19:20 PM
Okay, thanks for explaining.
I'm not sure what you mean then. Obviously I am commited to a secure and stable Israel, for a variety of reasons. What can I do, what do I do to that end? Well, I suppose you realize that all of us actually have lives apart from posting here. You can't know which charities I contribute to, which letters I write to the media and to my elected representatives, what organizational activities I took part in in college, how I taught myself the language, read endless material representing all kinds of viewpoints etc.
At the same time -- and I think the AW archives are full of proof -- I'm a very patriotic American. Believe me, in the circle I hang out in, that's rare. At least it was until two weeks ago. I'm a realist. I know damn well this is the best country there is. I'm not of the opinion that in a time when the U.S. military is made up of 1.4 million volunteers [and according to estimates I've read, is better equipped and trained then the next nine nations on the world's list of Top Ten armies combined] that the only way I can contribute is by joining the military.
As I said, if they need to reinstate the draft I'm not running away. How can a young American contribute to America other ways? Easy. Take part in America. Be part of the economy. Pay taxes, buy stuff, sell stuff. Vote, as I did today in a primary election. If you have something to say, write a letter to the newspaper and contribute your thoughts. I play in a band; dumb or pretentious as it sounds, I contribute to the cultural atmosphere of New York, and America.
Now, what I have been trying to put across these past few days is the notion that we [America and Israel] have a common enemy. It's truly amazing to me that the reflexive reaction of some people to our having undergone suicide attacks is not, "oh, now I get it! This is what Israel is up against and these are the same people too" but rather, "that's what we deserve for standing by a friend. maybe we should abandon the friend". Would it occur to anyone to suggest abandoning, say, Taiwan when China decides to swallow them up? You see, you also haven't addressed how you square off in your own mind advocating bumping off Saddam and Osama, heroes to many millions and at the same time "disengaging" from the middle east. Do you think that we can send in some special forces, kill some massively popular holy men and heroes, tell Israel to go to hell (then expect them not blow up their enemies in the resulting war) and the Arab world will then go "thanks, America. We're gonna leave you alone now and you can still have your oil?"
posted on September 25, 2001 09:36:50 PM
James, I find your multiple "blame thyself rape victims" comments a little uncalled for. You don't need to bash rape victims to make your point whether you find them to up to your emotional achievement standard or not. K? Thanks.
T
BTW, I am very proud to have you as a fellow American. Can't think of anyone that I had rather have on my side.
[ edited by jt on Sep 25, 2001 09:38 PM ]
posted on September 25, 2001 09:47:55 PM
Yes, well, I WAS even younger than you are and perhaps those sorts of feelings dissipate in a person more quickly than I had previously thought. Really for me it was as I said above, even though my closest childhood friend left to Canada when presented with the draft and others were doing the same thing or were accepting the two year sentence to a federal penitentary. There was a large group of protestors on the steps of the Oakland, CA army Induction Center on Oct. 16, 1967 entreating me not to go. But I had to go. At the time it seemed that I had been brought up to go, to follow my father's footsteps in defense of this country-to be directly involved at risk of my life in the then seemingly ultimate issue of the day, of my presence in life, of all that I hoped to and had said that I stood for. (Yep, I was duped--lock, stock, and barrel)
As to my postings of the proposal that the US disengage from the area--these are things that I'm hearing from personal associates and people with whom I share some endeavors and long standing anti-war sympathies locally, but not hearing in AW much. So, because I know that they are out there I bring them here for discussion. People too often assume that a position argued is a position felt I think, and I guess that those that do that have never had Professor Autocrat say to them; "now, you will take that side of this, and you,over there, will take the other side of that. Go ahead".
posted on September 25, 2001 10:00:00 PM
Guess when the below was said and who said it ??
"In a speech on XXXXXXX XX,XXXX, at the Park Avenue Synagogue in New
York City, XXXXX's frustrations over U.S. inaction in the face of the mounting
terrorist challenge boiled over. In the strongest speech on the subject yet de-
livered by a senior U.S. policymaker, XXXXX declared that the United States
must be ready to use military force to fight international terrorism and per-
haps even retaliate before all of the facts about a specific terrorist attack are
known, noting that "we may never have the kind of evidence that can stand up in an American court of law." He said the United States should also be
prepared to accept the loss of some innocent lives as a collateral result of its
retaliation. "We cannot allow ourselves to become the Hamlet of nations,"
he concluded, "worrying endlessly over whether and how to respond. A great
nation with global responsibilities cannot afford to be hamstrung by confu-
sion and indecisiveness. Fighting terrorism will not be a clean or pleasant
contest, but we have no choice but to play it.""
