posted on August 22, 2000 12:09:48 PM new
Ak sry - enter took me out before I could type anything ^_^)
Anyways, this is kind of a unique dilemma I'm dealing with and thought I'd ask about any other recourses with this.
(I inquired on this on eBay's Billing forum as well and I apologize in advance for the length...but due to the uniquenss wanted to explain this very well. )
For basis, this started a week ago today basically.
1) I (buyer) won an auction - video tape, 13$ total amount due. (9.99+SH)
2) Went to pay thru PayPal. On their payment info window however, when keying in the 9.99, the decimal didn't "work"... between that and messing up the proper fields I sent the seller $1,015. charged to
essentially a debit type card (tied to checking account)
3) Contacted Paypal immediately-as charge already went only thing was to have user send "refund" amount back into my paypal account.
That's the "mistake" portion of all of this. HEckuvva mistake...
Soo...now starts the fun part.
4) Emailed Seller about refund.
day passed-no response
5) Emailed Seller about refund agn.
late in day received email on un-related topic (I had a bid already in on a 2nd auction of his) w/no recognition of this "refund" problem.
6) Emailed yet again asking on why no response for this.
7) Seller replies "haven't had chance to contact Paypal....still trying to straighten problem with them + don't want to confuse them.....
(ya you can already see where this is going...)
8) Had contacted a specific supervisor at Paypal's customer service that this person could talk to if needed. It's simple to refund/send money back. Emailed all info to seller w/specifics.
9) next day (now saturday when paypal's Customer svc isnt available) seller replies "when I contacted them they said there was nothing I could do" "have lost amounts of money in the past" "when phoned there was not a supervisor to speak to and have to go thru another department for payments.
OK. so it's looking like seller doesn't want to refund the money. As paypal doesn't "control" or help out much in this situation (per customer service - although supervisor said to call back to him if nothing shows about getting money arrainged back, the 1st tier person
said today nothing could be done.
The only thing they can do is "hope seller doesnt ship package" within the 30 days to put a claim against it in that form.
Now on the other side of the coin is eBay's involvement - While I have found on ebay (and from the receipt from paypal) that this seller has/uses 2 ebay accounts, 1 for selling 1 for bidding/buying.
I had requested info from seller thru ebay, found there is a name discrepancy for his info in eBay against what he sends in emails and from what's registered at Paypal.
On eBay's side I would guess the only involvement/etc would be with that level of the problem.
So...anyone know of any other path to take with this?
needless to say, it better be a dang good video for 1k$.....
(on the plus side..it hasn't arrived yet either.. and for a paypal'ed transaction it really should have. but it sure ties up my finances in the meantime..)
Well if you read all of this thanks...and thanks for any suggestions too.
If paypal is reading: it would sure be nice to have a popup "safety" window settable for certain amounts. E.g. if amount is over "x" dollars, divert transaction to a "re-login/verification" window before instantly charging the cards....Then I'd be able to set a smaller level for my usual auction purchases, but if something was attempted with too high of an auction, it'd block it from going thru so easily...)
posted on August 22, 2000 01:11:29 PM new
Well this certainly illustrates a "buyer protection" situation that Paypal should address...even eBay has a very clear step in which you confirm the amount you are bidding. If you can screw up a bid on eBay, you probably shouldn't be allowed to walk around unattended. Now Paypal is another matter...I sent a double payment last week because the site was so slow and I got a server error. Luckily it was for less than $10, and the seller was very amicable about sending the payment back. This seller sounds like he think's he's just gotten the goose who laid the golden egg.
posted on August 22, 2000 01:20:26 PM new
PP makes you enter the payment, hit submit, review the payment then hit submit again. If there is not enough money in the account, it pops up a message saying "this will charge your credit card." I hate to say it, but this is not an easy mistake to make.
In any case, first contact [email protected]. He works very hard trying to resolve these things. You should also call your CC company. This is definitely a charge back situation. I have charged back when I was overcharged. All I had to show was the original invoice. If you can show that you were paying a $13 invoice and it because $1300, I'm sure your CC company will allow the CB. But before you go that route, try damon first. And let us know what happens.
posted on August 22, 2000 01:37:19 PM new
TRC> yup, that's what it sounds like.
Vis> Catch with the charges was that I was "used" to seeing the "this will be charged" as a lot of my auctions went that way more than doing a withdrawal/balance situation. That "this will be charged" window got clicked too quickly due to being used to that popping up. The amount said just didn't register with me there at the time.
Re bank: After verbal contact with them they're not as understandable/willing to do chargeback due to the transaction being directly with paypal + not literally direct to seller. If it was direct to seller + all within 2 days of the incident, I would've been able to chargeback and only lose 50$ on it. Their last thing I can do would be that "If I can explain all this in a short letter and mail/fax it to the bank's group" they'd look at it......
Thanks for replies anyways
-Dat-cha (who also notes he could've re-edited that note instead of replying to 1st one...sigh ^_^)
posted on August 22, 2000 01:59:39 PM newRe bank: After verbal contact with them they're not as understandable/willing to do chargeback due to the transaction being directly with paypal + not literally direct to seller.
datcha you've played the game naively.
The good news is, you can play again.
You have two ways to go, either will require the written form, which will require you to check a box and provide some explanation.
1. You did not authorize a charge of $1000. You authorized a charge of $13.
2. This payment was for the item specified (and not to "fund your PayPal account" ). You were overcharged. The charging merchant is not refunding the overcharge.
posted on August 22, 2000 02:35:41 PM new
Actually, he did authorize the $1000 charge, but it was obviously a mistake. Regardless, the seller needs to refund his overpayment immediately. Seems like the seller is taking advantage of this situation.
datcha, have you tried sending a "Request Money" to the seller for funds he owes you? I wonder what his/her response would be to that.
When a user submits payment they input the amount. It then takes you to another screen asking you to confirm the payment amount and the email address. Once you hit submit, it goes through.
The best advice I can give is for you to contact the site where you bought the item through, as they should refund the overpayment back to your PayPal account.
posted on August 22, 2000 03:02:47 PM new
JRS> Heh...actually I didn't think about that. What I might end up doing if that can be done then is one more email to both email addresses that's been identified (this seller's and the paypal "primary" that actually got paid...just in case it's being handled as a group other than just 1 person) specifying what will be done (notification to eBay about seller's information differences,etc) along with a statement that I would be sending a "request money" from paypal's site that can be followed up on to resolve this.
Then if there's no response or ignoring of the request money, I would take it from there. Yes, I may have been "taking this easily" like another had said but I also wanted to make very sure everything is covered well and legaly through this process...
PPdamon> yep understand all that. Done all that. Site/seller doesn't want to refund so have to persue other ways....
If it still comes down to an eventual "no shipment" then I guess you're side of things will be more involved... we'll see what happens.
Tnx for all responses...-Dat-cha
posted on August 22, 2000 03:11:16 PM new
Hi reddeer,
Did you happen to take note of the fact that the user put in the wrong information? How would we know how much money you wanted to send without you keying it in?
Here is a scenario:
You sell me something. The price is 10.00.
I send you 100.00 because I, the person asking PayPal to move the money, input that amount and I didn't realize my mistake despite the confirmation screen that pops up before the transaction goes through.
How would we know what the amount should be? We are only moving what you have asked us to do by logging onto the web site.The actual purchase arrangement is between buyer and seller.
posted on August 22, 2000 03:11:41 PM new
reddeer, the buyer needs to go through all means possible to get a refund from the seller directly. Sounds like that is what the buyer is doing. Instead of focusing on Damon/PayPal, why not try to offer some help to the buyer, I'm sure datcha would appreciate it.
[ edited by jrscharton on Aug 22, 2000 03:12 PM ]
posted on August 22, 2000 04:25:02 PM new
Damon ..... I would imagine if you emailed this person [the thread originator] & checked on the item # in question & then with the seller, you could get to the bottom of this pretty quickly?
Dontcha think?
The seller seems to be stalling at giving this buyer a refund?
posted on August 22, 2000 04:28:52 PM new
HI reddeer,
This is not a verification issue. This is an issue between what the buyer stated and what the seller is doing. I can't enforce anything in this matter based on the information provided and this does need to be resolved between the two parties.
I have no way of verifying what the arrangement was in this case and I have no power to make the seller remit payment back.
Have you talked to the seller via the phone? That would be my first step in resolving the matter, you have a lot of options. I just think it would be a good idea to use them in the correct order.
posted on August 22, 2000 06:37:52 PM new
He authorized PayPal to charge the amount he entered onto his credit card (well, debit card through his bank). However, per the information provided, this was a mistake. The seller should have already rectified this, but is for some reason refusing to do so.
I agree with uaru. Request the sellers contact info, and give him a call.
posted on August 22, 2000 07:37:16 PM new
Hi Damon,
This was a payment for an auction. The closed auction is on eBay open for the entire on-line world to see. If PayPal looks at the auction in question and sees a winning bid + shipping of $13, then looks at the PayPal accounts of buyer and seller and sees that $1300 was beamed to buyer, is this not an obvious error? If the difference was $1, $5, even $100, I could see PayPal's refusal to get involved. But a discrepancy of almost $1300 on a $13 auction? Surely you jest when you say the buyer and seller have to work this out between themselves.
posted on August 22, 2000 07:57:06 PM new
Why wouldn't it be up to the buyer and seller to work it out? The easiest solution is for the seller to return the overpayment to the buyer.
PayPal has no idea whether or not the $1000 not $1300) was sent in error, or if it was for payment for some undisclosed reason. Just because the auction that the buyer is referencing says $13.00, it does not mean that another transaction wasn't placed on the side for a hundred more of these items.
I happen to believe the buyer in this case, but that still does not change that the payment was authorized at $1000. If it is truly an error on the buyers end, it is up to the seller to rectify this by refunding the amount owed.
I think we should be focusing more on what datcha can do with the seller to ensure he gets his money back.
posted on August 22, 2000 09:21:02 PM new
Actually, I'm hoping there's not a response from PayPal and/or Damon regarding this.
Here's my predicition: I will not win the lotto no matter how many tickets I scratch off (of course, it would help if I actually bought more than one a year)
One does not win the lotto if one does not participate.
posted on August 22, 2000 10:57:49 PM new
Well, thanks for all the replies..didn't mean to open up a hornet's nest.
uaru> I have his info. I have not talked directly but will be doing that later today/this afternoon. I have done another email, to both email IDs known for this person/group, and have now provided him with an easy way to "send" the funds back by using the "request for money'. If nothing is followed up by noon or so I will be placing phone calls. (I also did this to give a "literal" opportunity for the seller to essentially say-by responding or not-"yes I will send funds" or "no...I am refusing to refund your money" by refusal or ignoring of the send money request. It's just another way to stack up options/proofs against the seller.
Now on the other side of things...
This single VHS tape (worth 1K$ ^_^ to be honest seems that it should have arrived by now. Seller's in MA, I'm in MI, even straight 1st or 3rd class postal normally would have made it if the seller "shipped within 24hrs of paypal payment" like his claim did. So down the line there is the possiblity of that issue being brought up with Paypal (thru their new protection thing). (Seller never sent email saying it's shipped,etc either, but it seems a lot don't email that like they used to anymore...but I digress) (Hopefully he isn't trying to come up with 101 copies of the tape to "cover" that $1k..^_^) (I know... but it's all getting into the realm of the absurd so may as well make fun of the situation...)
The other thing I thought of about this part was this: you're supposed to wait 30 days for the shipment to arrive before tying to place a claim (if I read what's been said and what Paypal people said on phone).
Now, it seems that Paypal would be wanting to know the specifics on the auction,etc right? (to know all auction details,specifics,and so forth) ...
but after 30 days the old auction info gets pulled off of eBay doesn't it? So just wondered how that worked if the original info is no longer available to be looked at by Paypal, how would _they_ be able to validate auction specifics (to authorize whatever paybacks,etc) then after that 30 day mark....
Just was thinking on this.
(granted I _can_ save, screenprint,gather specific info and copy it myself, but it seems they'd want to be able to verify this firsthand).
SG52> and yes it _is_ easy to screw up this thing. I am a fast typer/operator when it comes to anything on the computer. Due to the way I had done the many previous payments (just global amounts, not seperating anything in the second screen's "winning bid, shipping, insurance, total" window, this time I did attempt to modify that.
Ended up goofing up that 9.99 bid to 999, putting in the 3.20 shipping, and what I was thinking was "total" was an insurance area where I put the "total" in there as $13.19 - 999+ 3.20 + 13.19 = 1,015.39.
Since I was used to quick-clicking on that charge "warning" screen it got clicked thru real nice + easy...it was right when I "clicked" when I did the "uh oh" as I saw the amount...but was too late to cancel.
Add the fact that I had been dealing with the flu/sinus infection, and had just woke up, didn't help either. Shouldn't do _anything_ this important/serious until hrs after being up...
But anyways, given the right conditions, yes, one can authorize improper amounts by accident...
Oh well. Replying to this from work (midnight shift). Back to the mess...
-Dat-cha
posted on August 22, 2000 11:07:53 PM new
Sounds like everything's in order, and you're taking good steps to get this resolved. If you're worried about the auction disappearing after 30 days, you can always print out a copy of the auction page. I'd sign into eBay first, so the seller's email address shows on the page. I think the auctions usually stick around longer than 30 days, at least the old ones I've check on.
You could always let the seller know that if this isn't resolved promptly, you'll take appropriate action, including leaving negative feedback. Okay, I know... ooooo, negative feedback vs. $1000? Big whoop. But it doesn't hurt. Just like it doesn't hurt to check with PayPal to see if there's anything they can do. And just like it wouldn't hurt to check with eBay to see if there's anything they can do either.
Have you thought about filing a fraud claim through eBay?
eBay may come back and tell you that they can't get involved in this, but it couldn't hurt to try. At the worst, you've lost a few minutes filling it out. At the least, you've got something on file, and you may even be able to get eBay to generate an email to the seller, even if it is just a generic one.
Good luck! And thanks for keeping us apprised of the situation.
posted on August 23, 2000 03:11:34 AM new
At least this whole thread has become an object lesson for getting help from Paypal for simple mistakes. Even eBay has a system for retracting bids that are placed in error...you'd think there'd be some mechanism for the same when dealing with cash money on Paypal.
Just one more reason not to bother upgrading to a business account, and one more reason to keep emptying the account as I get money in it...I bet they're getting one helluva float out of the money datcha sent to make up for that.
What little remained of my respect for the illustrious Paypaldamon has now evaporated.
posted on August 23, 2000 05:27:18 AM new"Even eBay has a system for retracting bids that are placed in error"
WHOA! You expect PayPal to have a 'cancel payment button'!? After you've confirmed the amount twice? I think everyone including myself would scream bloody murder if a buyer had the option to cancel payment once it was sent to a valid account and you'd see a mass exodus.
Yeah, eBay has a system for retracting bids, and I think it is terribly abused.
posted on August 23, 2000 05:32:02 AM newPayPal has no idea whether or not the $1000 not $1300) was sent in error, or if it was for payment for some undisclosed reason. Just because the auction that the buyer is referencing says $13.00, it does not mean that another transaction wasn't placed on the side for a hundred more of these items.
No problem. Let the buyer show proof of shipping a hundred more of these items, after he produces an order from buyer for a hundred more items. The bottom line here is that eBay auctions are well documented. All correspodence between the 2 parties (with full headers) can be forwarded to Payal. This should be a very easy issue to resolve.
posted on August 23, 2000 06:35:43 AM new
I have been accused of working for Paypal, but I think this post will put that rumor to rest. I have to admit that I cant understand PP at all. They spent millions on this verification thing and are trying to tell everybody that they are protected when using PP. Then along comes an obvious mistake and PP says they cant get involved.
PP refers you the the CC rules, as if claiming that they will abide by the decision of the CC company. The CC company in this case will almost certainly allow a charge back.
I once had a company overcharge my CC on an item. Their ad stated Free shipping, my sales receipt stated free shipping and yet they charged me $96 for shipping. I sent my CC company a copy of the ad and the receipt and they charged back the shipping.
In this case, the buyer was buying a $10 video. It should be pretty easy to prove. If the seller did get $1000 from the buyer, that seller should be able to show what they sold for $1000. Have they shipped a box that was insured for $1000? It won't take Sherlock Holmes to get to the bottom of this.
Frankly, if I was PP and worried about scams and bad press, I would close the account of whichever party is lying in this case. PP is spending millions with verification and rules. Some of the methods to prevent fraud are much simpler, such as restricting known crooks.
posted on August 23, 2000 06:47:26 AM new
Yisgood ...... Well, that post certainly puts it to rest for me.
I couldn't agree more. How is PROOF of shipping etc-etc-etc going to prove anything if PP can't handle a simple situation like this?
PayPal has an extra $1,000 in their float, and it seems they could careless about helping this customer fix a simple, yet costly, mistake on his part.
