posted on August 24, 2000 02:33:10 PM new
paypaldamon- I wouldn't expect you to "take back" the money. However a call or an email to the seller might be the nudge to get the seller to do the right thing. Maybe knowing that PayPal is watching might get him to come clean...although if he were reading this thread I bet he would be clapping his hands in glee knowing that there is nothing you can do to help.
posted on August 24, 2000 02:41:59 PM new
HI carinibaby,
I am checking to see if there is anything that I can do proper, but this is not a fraud case. I have asked the user to send me all the information pertaining to this item.
There has also not been a long enough timeframe to see if the seller is not making attempts to return it. The seller might be on vacation, email down,computer down, etc. This is where any issue would lie on the matter.
The seller has already replied to the buyer. He didn't dispute the overpayment. He just said that he didn't want PayPal to get involved until an unrelated issue with PayPal was resolved. This is a stalling technique and contrary to your opinion, keeping money to which one is not entitled is indeed fraud.
posted on August 24, 2000 02:49:03 PM new
Damon- But wouldn't the fact that the seller is continuing to "start new auction sales" thru this period "prove" that he's "around"???
As email's had gone to both addresses- 2 different ISPs - etc it seems highly unlikely....
He was around to forcefully "cancel" the money request... and had initiated new auctions on 8/22.....
-datcha
posted on August 24, 2000 02:56:27 PM new
Hi datcha,
Yes. I agree with that, but the auctions could have been listed from somewhere other than a home email address,etc.
I am offering advice on what I can and trying to assist where I can. I have passed the information along to the account management team to see if anything can be done.
posted on August 24, 2000 03:15:57 PM new
Paypaldamon-I disagree that there was not enough time to return it. He is stalling (like others have said). How long is long enough? The more time that goes by the harder it will be to get datcha's money. It only takes less than a minute for the seller to refund the buyers money...at least as long as it took to cancel the money request.
edited because I just read the above post
[ edited by carinibaby on Aug 24, 2000 03:17 PM ]
posted on August 24, 2000 03:33:25 PM new
Hi carinibaby,
This is exactly why I gathered all of the information from the buyer. I have all of the correspondence (to see if we can do anything, which is not the case at this time.It may not be the popular answer, but it is the correct one. All payment services have the same statement about disputes, which this one is) I am looking and trying, but nothing has come back to me at this time.I am putting myself in the customer shoes by making the attempt to do something.
posted on August 24, 2000 04:02:10 PM new
datcha -
If you have the sellers name and address, you might try anywho.com (or any of the other similar sites available) and see if you can come up with a correct phone number for him. If he has listed a phony phone number (no pun intended) with E-bay and you call him at home (out of the blue as he does not expect you to have his real number), it might urge him to do the right thing knowing you are tracking him down and right on his tail. Again, I don't know if it'll help..just another thought.
posted on August 24, 2000 04:03:20 PM new
At 11:19 on 8/24, damon posted:
but we don't even know what has happened with the seller and I don't think that they are trying to bilk anyone and they are probably not aware of the mistake
However, in his initial post on 8/22, datcha noted that he had already emailed Seller several times:
4) Emailed Seller about refund. Day passed-no response 5) Emailed Seller about refund agn. late in day received email on un-related topic (I had a bid already in on a 2nd auction of his) w/no recognition of this "refund" problem. 6) Emailed yet again asking on why no response for this. 7) Seller replies "haven't had chance to contact Paypal....still trying to straighten problem with them + don't want to confuse them.....
And on 8/24 at 9:54 (also BEFORE damon's post noted above, datcha noted:
[T]he request for payment was sent Tuesday at basically 08:30 PM. Wednesday I received the email at 01:52 PM stating that this person "cancelled" the request.
I think it's safe to infer that Seller's responses to emails, and his cancellation of the request for payment, indicate Seller is indeed "aware of the mistake".
It would be interesting to know whether Seller has transferred this $$ out of his account.
I agree with uaru. Invite the seller to this thread.
BTW, datcha, have you checked to see if Seller has been bidding on any items? If he is, I'd suggest that we then DO know something about "what has happened to the seller". Seller is around, alive and kicking.
[ edited by HartCottageQuilts on Aug 24, 2000 04:05 PM ]
I am only pointing out all of the facets, not just the buyer end. If you ask datcha, they will let you know that I have been in contact with them to advise/direct.
Contact the seller and an AuctionWatch moderator. Then you can post the seller's name and he can come and reply. It could validate everything, and the solution might be very quick. We'll hire someone to play the part of Judge Judy.
Hell, I'll put on a wig and get an attitude and I can play the part of Judge Judy.
If this starts rumors about my cross dressing there will be hell to pay
posted on August 24, 2000 04:49:48 PM new
Haha....ya Judge Judy might handle this pretty quickly I'd say.
I actually hadn't looked closer at anything (re: auctionwatch moderator,etc).
Not that it matters a whole lot at this time, but I get a "feeling" in a way that I wouldn't want him to look here just because it would give him knowledge of what I'd be trying to do head of times.
(although he probably already knows the common stuff.)
It might be interesting to see if he would respond in here or what.
HCQ, I looked up his bids...he hasn't bid on anything with his name he used in my auction. The last bid of his on his "primary" name was done on 14th. So since getting my money, he hasn't bid on anything.
I would be curious to know if he immediately withdrew that money, or if it's still sitting in his acct, but it's not legal to pass that info out.
(If it was easy to get that info I'd sure be worried..^_^)
Gotta step away from this and grab a bite to eat. all this typing's making me hungry ^_^.
(I can't believe how long/busy this thread has been...)
posted on August 24, 2000 05:08:36 PM new
Umm...datcha have you checked your seller recently?
If I have the right auction in question (and I think I do from the price you originally quoted), it looks like he went NARU since yesterday. I don't think you're going to be able to leave feedback or anything...and I doubt you're going to hear from him again outside of a courtroom. That $1,000 was a tad more than he made in the last month or two.
I'm truly surprised you got your tape, but I guess even this loser wasn't up to chance a mail fraud charge for $1,000, an amount that might actually be investigated.
So, if the illustrious Paypaldamon is listening, this case has likely become one of definite fraud and theft.
More vacillation or finally some action? Or just something else to go in the end of the day report?
----
TRC
[ edited by TheRedCircle on Aug 24, 2000 05:09 PM ]
This is exactly why I gathered all of the information from the buyer. I have all of the correspondence (to see if we can do anything, which is not the case at this time.It may not be the popular answer, but it is the correct one. All payment services have the same statement about disputes, which this one is) I am looking and trying, but nothing has come back to me at this time.I am putting myself in the customer shoes by making the attempt to do something.
I agree with you completely completely in the following sentence: This is the popular answer and the correct one.The correct answer is to freeze the seller's account until this is settled. Anything less on PayPal's account is simply unbelievable.
We're not saying that PayPal should go in and remove the money from the seller's account without an investigation. But PayPal has elected to freeze accounts in the past even when the seller was the one being victimized. The fact that we're still even discussing this boggles the mind. This should have been cleared up yesterday.
[ edited by abingdoncomputers on Aug 24, 2000 07:37 PM ]
7) Seller replies "haven't had chance to contact Paypal....still trying to straighten problem with them + don't want to confuse them.....
If this statement can be supported with a copy of the seller's email (with full headers), then the seller has implicitly stated that the buyer is telling the truth. Why on earth would he say "I haven't had a chance to contact PayPal yet" if he wasn't concurring that the buyer did in fact send an erroneous payment?
If the buyer was blowing smoke to the seller, do you not think the seller would disagree that an overpayment was made? Surely you can't believe that the seller is on the up-and-up here?
posted on August 24, 2000 09:23:10 PM new
No Judge Judy?? Darn, I was so looking forward to seeing uaru in those robes. What WOULD he wear underneath??
Since that's out, maybe we can do a little campaigning of our own. Contact the seller via email to gently remind him that if an auction was overpaid, he really needs to refund the seller ASAP?
I wonder how long it would take him to respond once confronted with that many people involved? Another thing to do (although I'm not condoning it as I'm not sure how eBay would feel about it), is to contact previous buyers/sellers. He obviously changed his contact info, but if at least one buyer/seller transaction was via check, you should have a real name/address there.
datcha, I know you're working crazy hours, on top of trying to deal with this. Let me know if this is something I can help you out with. I'd be more than happy to.
posted on August 25, 2000 09:25:59 AM new
Sry-didn't do any replies...I just did some major sleep-catchup ^_^.
auctionee> The address he supplied is PO Box-based. So there won't be a lookup way in that direction.
TRC> Ya you probably have the right one. Yup he went NARU... although I thought the ID history should've date-stamped when he went NARU, it only listed last date-time he wen his name was "suspended" in Jan....
I don't believe he was NARU state till just recently but would've liked a date-timestamp (and specifics with it (requested NARU, or forced by other problems...)
jrs> heh - well it'd be a neat campaign....but I'm not sure of the legality of it.
Well I left a note in the moderator's area just to see what they thought of the Idea.
Did get that letter/infodump to ebay's safeharbor group about all this yesterday would've been late afternoon PST there. I haven't heard anything on it tho..Kindof was hoping on an "acknowledgement" that they received the email etc but oh well. Just wait + see I guess.
Gee, it's amazing when I look at the auction sites at all the help topics, FAQs, ...there's never a mention of "what if I overpay"....^_^
-dat
posted on August 25, 2000 10:17:16 AM new
datcha, he went NARU sometime between Wednesday night and Thursday evening...I know the first time I checked he was up and running, and now apparently he's just running.
The address he supplied is PO Box-based. So there won't be a lookup way in that direction
If the seller is using the post office box to do business with the public, they will supply you with the seller's name, phone number (if it's on record with the PO), and street address.
posted on August 25, 2000 10:34:56 AM new
Ok...that's somewhat when I thought.
Not sure how "safeharbor" works on users when they switch into this state, but....
Barring all of this, I could file with the FBI's group, if I can find out when everyone "else" is done trying to help with this. They might have the "power" to deal with this down the line.
I just want to make certain on any type of statute of limitations on reporting. "you only have 1 week after said offense to report the fraud".. etc. So am trying to watch for that.
I think I'd want to get full responses from all before I do though (bank,ebay safeharbor, and pretty much done as far as Paypal's acts I guess). If the bank did a chargeback, then _they'd_ be the ones wanting to file against this person....
posted on August 25, 2000 10:37:21 AM new
abingdon>
Hmm. I thought it would take a court order
or somesuch in order to retreive that type of info...
Also does Post Office "verify" the name/user address info given to them for these? (used to have a PO box myself about 20 years ago, but can't remember the process). Just wondering...
For security reasons the PO is not allowed to give out personal information on boxholders who use the box strictly for personal use. They are REQUIRED however to provide the information to ANYONE who asks id the box is used to conduct business with the public. When you open a PO box, there is a question on the form asking: Will this box be used for doing business with the public? If the person checks yes, then the post office is required to release the info on request. If the person checks no, and then uses the box for business, he can get into a mess with the PO.
posted on August 25, 2000 11:42:54 AM new
Ah ok. So it might be worth the inquiry to the postmaster there about this...
(although in _my_ case the p.o. box didn't get _used_ per say, but he did notify me that payment could be sent there.
posted on August 25, 2000 11:43:32 AM new
abingdoncomputers,
Thank you VERY much for providing this information! It may be very helpful to me with a situation I am currently dealing with. (No, it's not PayPal related. )
posted on August 25, 2000 01:41:05 PM new
Just FYI, Talked with the postmaster at the seller's location, Per him, he can only verify with "anyone" the name information-even if buisness related. That's it.
He himself won't "investigate" if the PO box is buisness or personal ID'd...
or any of the other info unless he's directed to by the Postal Inspection Service (their investigative group). He mentioned I could start looking in that way...
Meanwhile, I am sending an invitation to this person to join this "thread". Also meanwhile, I believe I may have "dug up" the seller's true address + info. (isn't the internet wonderful??)
(oddly enough I did searches for "me" and it looks like I'm more anonymous than I thought...)
Anywho, I am sending an "invite" to the seller to come to this discussion first.
If he doesn't show, then there will be contact attempted direct, if he claims isn't the same person there, (or refuses to talk to me) I will open up inquiry to the Postal Inspection service to "validate", then will follow thru with a report sent to the IFCC (FBI online) side to see what is enforcable,etc.
posted on August 25, 2000 01:45:47 PM new
We can go around in circles on this. I believe the situation should have been handled like this:
buyer sends PP the info of the auction and the payment amount. buyer says seller has cancelled request for payment.
pp sees a $13 auction and a thousand dollar payment and a cancelled request.
pp sends email to the seller
"This is xx from paypal. We received a report that a deposit may have been sent to your account in error. If so, please refund the error. If not, please send us documentation on what was purchased for the $1000 payment you received. At this point, no one is being accused of anything. But as part of our new protection guarantee, we must investigate this incident for the protection of all our customers."
if money is still in PP account, PP should freeze that transaction and add "For the protection of our customers, the amount has been temporarilly frozen. When documentation has been provided, the lock will be removed."
As a seller, if I received such an email, I would think that PP was doing their job. I would send copies of auctions, emails, whatever I had to show what the payment was for and the worst I would suffer was a temporary lock on the money. Much better than a charge back, having my account frozen, etc. It is the price to be paid for protection.
If indeed there was an overpayment, such an email might cause the seller to realize that PP was on to it and he'd better return it quick. By PP delaying action, the seller might figure that here was his chance to empty his PP account and abscond. That is why I consider PP disappointing from a buyer's point of view. This whole thing might have already been resolved with quick action.
posted on August 25, 2000 02:25:51 PM new
Datcha -
If he mailed you the video tape, you do have a mail fraud case. I would talk to my local postamaster about that and since he also used a PO Box, it would also bring that into question. You also mentioned at the beginning of this thread about a second item you had bid on. Have you received that one also?? If not, you may have a claim against that one as you certianly sent enough money to pay for it too.
Damon -
That also brings up another question. In the new TOU about the guarantees, sellers are cautioned about accepting more than 1 payment for an item...what about paying for multiple items from the same seller with one payment? If the items need to be paid for seperately in order to seperate the guarantees, shouldn't there be a line in the TOU cautioning buyers about this?
Items being purchased don't need to be done separately, but items being sold and paid for via multiple addresses is a higher fraud risk. You can still send one payment for multiple items.
posted on August 25, 2000 02:40:34 PM new
But what happens when the buyer says "I paid for 2 items and only received 1" and the buyer says "see, I have DC that I shipped the package"?
)