posted on August 10, 2003 05:12:51 PM
Psst Roadsmith-
Sorry I could not sit hear all day and repeat myself to you again and again, but I was at CHURCH PRAYING ALOUD with my family!!!
Anyway, you asked:
Answer this, please! Defend, if you will, the boom-box prayer--the out-loud, in your face, loud-speaker prayer which everyone without ear plugs MUST listen to.
I will repeat what I said before because it still stands IMO. If the owners, sponsors or players at a football game had an objection to a prayer before the game started, do you really think they would allow it. You don't hear the owners, sponsors, players or for that matter the majority of the people at a game complaining about it. It is the small minority who for some reason feel they can tell the majority how to live there life's so that it does not offended them. You don't have to participate in the prayer. That is your right, but why should everyone else have to stop a tradition that has been obviously welcomed and enjoyed for years now. Please take the time to actually read and understand what it is I am trying say this time.
You also said:
And I respectfully ask that you not include in your defense of boom-box prayer any other slurs toward those of us who disagree with you on other matters. Please, just deal with this one question.
I am not sure what you talking about here. if it is the fact that I asked you to look too the response I gave to Kraftdinner about prayer in school. You asked, I just did not feel like posting it twice.
posted on August 10, 2003 05:33:31 PM
Forcing me to practice your religion or any religion for that matter is not one of those rights.
As to diversity, believe it or not there is a large Christian community in the middle east and specifically Iraq perhaps you may be familiar with some of the Christians from the area such as Teriq Aziz.
posted on August 10, 2003 05:37:44 PM
Well put Linda k!
To those who say they believe in GOD and do in fact pray, but think it is pompous of anyone to have to tell him stuff he already knows or pray out loud to GOD when among others, is a bit pompous themselves and not to mention lazy. You mean just because GOD knows all, there is no reason to confess our sins to him? Now that is just complete nonsense.
Also, some seem to feel that just because they don't follow the same religion as me, that it is good enough reason for me to have to silence myself or hide the fact that I am praying so that it does not offend you? That in itself is against my religion. I will not now or ever change the way I follow my religion to make sure I don't offend someone. If me praying aloud is all that it takes to offend someone, then that person has some serious issues and should seek help other than this message board. I can honestly say that if I was in an elevator and the guy next to me suddenly dropped to his knees and started praying to the sun GOD aloud, it would not offend me. So what, he has that right as well as I do!
posted on August 10, 2003 05:39:22 PMthe country needs to adapt to different belief systems.
In American all religions are allowed to practice their faith. So this 'need' is already being met.
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dave, no one is forcing you to practice any religion. That would be a violation of our laws. Period. Listening to someone else say their prayers, out loud, is not a right you can take from them. It is Constitutionally protect....just as free speech.
posted on August 10, 2003 05:52:30 PM
That is untrue. As I stated and stand by. As a child in this country I was forced on a daily basis in a public school system to participate in a Christian Prayer and listen to readings from the New Testament.
With regard to public assemblies for sporting events these stadiums, teams and commercial venues receive many tax dollars to subsidize the stadiums (corporate welfare, the worst kind). As it is public funds that partially enable these events there should be no active proselytizing permitted.
I strongly object to forced public prayer. Your freedom of speech does not include some right to force my participation either actively or passively.
[ edited by davebraun on Aug 10, 2003 05:54 PM ]
posted on August 10, 2003 05:59:54 PM
dave - Please tell me where anyone, in public school or any other public place is being forced to say prayers. There is no such place.
You are speaking about something you find offensive. I find men who wear checked shirts and plaid pants offensive, but that doesn't mean they can't wear them.
should be no active proselytizing permitted. That's your [and other's here] opinion/wish. Our Constitution protects our freedom to practice our religion. The rest is argued in the courts.
posted on August 10, 2003 06:05:18 PM
New York City Public School 112. Before 1963. Daily over the loadspeaker for approximately 2-3 minutes and live before all assemblies and school functions. The practice was abolished in the mid 1960's. In parts of the US it continues.
Anyone that attends a public event. Whether a sporting event, concert or movie should not be forced to participate in a religious service of any kind.
[ edited by davebraun on Aug 10, 2003 06:06 PM ]
posted on August 10, 2003 06:15:18 PM
Yes, dave, I'm aware that was the way it was done before 1963. Because others didn't feel it right that they were being forced, it went the the USSC.
But here we are 40 years later and what I said is true. NO ONE is forced to pray that doesn't want to. But that also doesn't give anyone the right to force me to give up my Constitutional right to practice my religion any where I want. And out loud too.
I might be sitting at a ball game and start singing, very loudly, On The Banks of the Wabash, when my team hits a home run. If you don't like it, you'll have to leave you seat and move elsewhere. My right to free speech and to practice my religion, [out loud] at the same stadium is not something you can take from me because you find it objectionable.
posted on August 10, 2003 06:19:16 PM
If attending a ball game or some other public commercial event there is no possible reason to participate in a Christian invocation from my perspective and that of many others both Christian and non-Christian alike.
In my life I have visited many of the world's great Cathedrals, Mosques and Synagogues I don't have a problem with any however if I am going to the game it is my expectation to eat hot dogs, drink soda's and have a good time. I am not there to reaffirm or in my case adopt another creed which I do not embrace.
posted on August 10, 2003 06:23:43 PM
Yes, dave, I understand you don't like it. I'm just saying that your position is not protected under our Constitution, like that of religious freedom is.
We on the right realize that many agree with you and would like to stiffle all out loud prayers you find so offensive. We're just glad to have a President and a Constitution that protects our rights. You can always take it to the USSC.
posted on August 10, 2003 06:24:40 PM
I have no problem if someone spontaneously feels moved to express whatever. When it is an organized prayer broadcast at 120db over the loudspeakers and I am required to bow my head, remove my hat or in some other way assume a submissive stance this is not right and the law protects me from this.
And I believe that my right of freedom from religion is protected which is why the 10 commandments have been removed from the Alabama Court House and there are no longer Nativities displayed in the public parks of America.
posted on August 10, 2003 06:30:58 PM
First of all Dave, no one would be forcing you to do anything. You don't seem to be getting that point.
You might hear what's being said over the loud speaker, and choose to leave in protest or you could choose to just be quiet for a moment, you could sing outloud yourself, you could speak during those few moments, or you might be tolerant of whoever is putting on the program.
posted on August 10, 2003 06:31:02 PM
Ball Parks are not "Public" places and even though you do not have to bow your head or whatever... they have the right to conduct a prayer over the loudspeaker if they want...
You have the right to go for a stroll to get a soda and hot dog if you want...
posted on August 10, 2003 06:52:14 PM
Yes, ball parks are considered public areas and many are funded by our tax dollars through a system of corporate welfare. Broadcasting a prayer from a specific religion over the public address is a clear violation of law.
posted on August 10, 2003 07:05:15 PM
No they are not... "public" in the sense of the word... you pay to enter, you are not entitled to sit where ever you want and it doesn't matter if your "tax" dollars paid for it or not... it is not "public" and does not have to disallow everything a city park does...
posted on August 10, 2003 07:05:16 PM
BTW - either school prayers were not abolished in the 60's or my school was violating more than a few laws in the mid and late 70's where I was forced (and yes Linda, we actually were forced, my mother was called in when I refused) to recite the 23rd psalm.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really Common Sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on August 10, 2003 07:15:22 PM
fenix - I'm assuming public school for you?
Without checking I believe forced prayer was before the court in the mid 60's.
Yes, some schools here [Bible belt - small town], where I live, still pray in school each day. That's the way the majority of parents who's children attend want things. But if someone doesn't want to they are not forced. If the person wanted to make a big stink out of it...I'm sure they could force them to stop.
That's what many are working on changing. Let those who wish to practice their religion do so, and those that don't aren't forced to.
You guys are speaking about 40 years ago. MANY things have changed in that time.
quickly trying to change are to aren't.
[ edited by Linda_K on Aug 10, 2003 07:18 PM ]
posted on August 10, 2003 07:39:25 PM
::fenix - I'm assuming public school for you?::
LOL - Well Linda - I was not quite obnoxious (and independent) enough for my parents to want to get rid of me until I hit my teens. That's when they shipped me off to boarding school
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really Common Sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on August 10, 2003 07:58:00 PM
But, Linda--one of the main reasons the Pilgrims and Puritans came to the New World was the repressive nature of the state church of England. The church there was a state institution.
Seems to me when we open school daily with a Christian prayer we are instituting the Christian religion as the official one for the school and stating subliminally that the taxpayer-funded school is now de facto part of that institution.
I know we all can agree to disagree. What I'm not sure of is whether some of you folks who love those boom-box prayers understand that some of us on the other side are also Christians and people who live lives of prayer. Who approve of public prayers in church schools and in church services, in all gatherings where it's certain all are of the same faith.
posted on August 10, 2003 08:22:13 PM
roadsmith But, Linda--one of the main reasons the Pilgrims and Puritans came to the New World was the repressive nature of the state church of England. The church there was a state institution.
Yes and here we have freedom of religion and from religion. No longer is anyone forced to pray anywhere [other than maybe in private religious schools].
Seems to me when we open school daily with a Christian prayer we are instituting the Christian religion as the official one for the school and stating subliminally that the taxpayer-funded school is now de facto part of that institution. Yes, same kind of thing when the public schools teach children lessons that don't agree with some people's religious beliefs. You expect others to be tolerant hearing issues of sex, gays, liberal stands on the political issues when maybe people would rather they teach their own children their views about those issues.
That's obviously where a lot of disagreement come in to this hot topic.
Since we were mostly a Christian people when this country was founded....yes...it has, in the past, been mostly Christian prayer. But that, like a lot of things has changed over the years.
When we send our children to school, they do not leave their right to their religion freedom at the school steps. They should, imo, be allowed to pray anywhere they want.
I know we all can agree to disagree. What I'm not sure of is whether some of you folks who love those boom-box prayers understand that some of us on the other side are also Christians and people who live lives of prayer. Who approve of public prayers in church schools and in church services, in all gatherings where it's certain all are of the same faith. Yes, we understand that. But I'm saying I'm on the side of you not limiting my right to practice my religion anywhere I wish. You want to tell us where we can do what. Not your place. Just like it's not my place to force prayer on anyone who doesn't want to.
Personally I don't care which God people pray to...that's their choice. But I'm not for limiting anyone's ability to say where and when. And I'm not for a very small minority making the rules for the majority. When even people don't want people praying in public...the laws will be change. When there are enough republicans in office to reverse some of our laws that do limit our freedoms...they will be changed too.
posted on August 10, 2003 08:28:32 PM
I tend to ramble....sorry.
But one example that I feel is taking away a persons right to practice their religious freedoms is a case [and there have been many of the same] where a high school graduate - top of her class - was planning, in her class speech, to thank her God for what he helped her accomplish in her life. She was not allowed to do so. To me it's cases like this that violate her rights.
posted on August 10, 2003 09:26:10 PM
Linda, I did some looking and found a couple of cases where valedictorians or salutatorians had had their speeches censored by administration due to religious content. One I read merely thanked god for the strength to carry on through some adversity in the kid's life. Another spoke about Jesus being the most important factor in the student's life, and the reason for his success. Yet another stressed to students in the ceremony and to all of those in the audience that being reborn in Christ was the ONLY way to earthly success and heavenly salvation.All three took place in public schools. That the first two examples were censored is to me deplorable. A kid who has done well should be able to thank whomever he or she wants to. This sounds like two cases of chicken $hit administrators who are afraid of controversy or lawsuits. In the third instance, the student was proselytizing, preaching, and by default condemning anyone listening for not believing as she did. This is wrong, a clear violation of separation of church and state, and IMO her administration was absolutely justified in not allowing the speech to be given. I live in a community largely made up of conservative protestants. Usually, our 8th grade and high school speakers at graduation will thank god or Jesus or their pastors for help and guidance through school, or refer to their religion as a source of strength. Nobody bats an eye, and I for one am glad to hear them express a belief in SOMETHING beyond themselves, though I do not follow their religious beliefs. So far though, they've all had sense enough not to preach to the crowd. That's different. And it's not right in a public school setting.
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What luck for the leaders that men do not think. - Adolph Hitler
posted on August 10, 2003 10:20:11 PM
I've never cared one way or the other if there is prayer at these events.Seems frivolous and foolish but who cares?
God and I were talking today and he told me to let you know that he would prefer that when you confessed your sins to him that you do it loudly and in public.
I'd prefer that also. At least it would be more interesting.
Krafty..I thought you sounded pretty coherent last evening.
posted on August 10, 2003 10:45:55 PMThat the first two examples were censored is to me deplorable. We agree there then.
In the third instance, the student was proselytizing, preaching, and by default condemning anyone listening for not believing as she did. By default...is the way YOU took it...your opinion profe. I take the stand that the student has full rights [freedom of speech and religion] to speak her mind. If anyone didn't want to listen..they could leave. It was her special time and she should have been able to say whatever she wanted to. I'm sure if she were talking about some liberal point of view - say spouting anti war ideas, it wouldn't have been found as offensive as it was. I've sat at many graduations where I was board to death or didn't agree with what was being said. I lived though it.
This is wrong, a clear violation of separation of church and state. We don't agree and that's why some of these cases end up in court.
Also the reason those on the left are obstructing the appointments of those judges with 'right' leaning beliefs. And why Bush is pushing for more conservative judges....more balance. You liberals have had the advantage too long, and the people are waking up to the need for LESS liberals judges.
