Sept. 17, 2003 | International laws and treaties do not prohibit Virginia from executing juveniles, a judge ruled Wednesday in the case against teenage sniper suspect Lee Boyd Malvo.
Defense lawyers had argued that an overwhelming consensus of foreign nations and certain international treaties combined to bar the execution of people under 18 at the time of their crime.
"The world has spoken. This isn't a close call. This is the world against us," said defense lawyer Craig Cooley. "Some things are so absolutely abhorrent to humanity that it is simply unacceptable. We are at that point when we talk about the execution of children."
posted on September 20, 2003 07:03:45 AM
I watched an interview last night on Dateline with Malvo's mother. What a sad case. I think this boy was totally manipulated. He was the perfect brainwash target. Executing him would show the world just how low we have sunk as a society. I look at my 19 year old son (who thinks he's an adult) and think, "Wow, he really is still a child in so many ways". He doesn't use the same logic as older adults do. In Judge Judy's words (I love these words), he's not fully cooked.
This young boy was trying so hard to find someone he could latch onto. According to his mother, Malvo was also worried about her safety if he didn't follow along with the sniper plan.
posted on September 20, 2003 07:13:13 AM
Jesus Christ.... Which is it? People want children to be treated like adults in all areas except the Law?
I don't know about your son, which you make a prime example for the need for the draft, but most 17 year olds know the difference between right and wrong...
This "brainwash" excuse has already been proven in the past to be quite bogus...
The moment that kid look through that scope and pulled the trigger... he is now an adult.
posted on September 20, 2003 07:29:13 AM
To Quote my ex father-in-law " They should hit them in the head when they are babies and save the milk for the hogs." I'll bet this gets a reply ot 2.
posted on September 20, 2003 07:47:20 AM
In the inner cities, some minority children are being tried as adults as young as 13 years of age. I think the Supreme Court should set the minimum age for being tried as an adult. That should not be a matter of 'states rights'. Of course after the Florida ballot fiasco the Supreme Court is a joke anyway.
-------------- sig file ----------- President John F. Kennedy said, "There are three things which are real: God, human folly and laughter. The first two are beyond our comprehension, so we must do what we can with the third."
posted on September 20, 2003 09:20:11 AM
Cheryl - I saw the interview with his mother as well and I feel for her but what bothers me is that he still is not remorseful for his crimes against others.
I'm torn because of his age but at the same time. they killed over 20 people ovber a peroid of time and he shows no remorse. Is this someone we really want to have returning to society?
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on September 20, 2003 09:39:59 AMI watched an interview last night on Dateline with Malvo's mother. What a sad case. I think this boy was totally manipulated. He was the perfect brainwash target. Executing him would show the world just how low we have sunk as a society. I look at my 19 year old son (who thinks he's an adult) and think, "Wow, he really is still a child in so many ways". He doesn't use the same logic as older adults do. In Judge Judy's words (I love these words), he's not fully cooked.
posted on September 20, 2003 12:33:13 PM
I've got mixed emotions about this. There's some mentality out there that dictates young adults (13 -21) are expendable. This is the same age group that makes up a vast amount of the military. On one hand, they are expected to understand war and fighting, but on the other, they're still kids. Mixed messages, imo.
posted on September 20, 2003 12:57:02 PM
Hell, he was old enough to squeeze a trigger & kill innocent people, why not execute him after a fair and impartial trial where he is found guilty.
I say give each family member of the people he killed a AR & give him a running start. That way he will have as much chance of living as he gave them.
And I'll provide the ammo.
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. ~ Thomas Jefferson
posted on September 20, 2003 01:12:11 PM
I can sure understand your outrage at these two, Bear. What they did was evil. But , for the Malvo boy, there are some grey areas that should be considered, one of them being his age. The death penalty shouldn't be an option for him, imo.
posted on September 20, 2003 01:34:32 PM
Krafty - does it bother you that this kid was involved in over 20 murders over a period of months and has expressed no regret for his actions? When asked why they targeted the teenager that barely survived his answer was that it was to piss off the sherriff overseeing the investigation. There is something missing in this kid, like a conscience, he is at the very least sociopathic IMO.
It's not like this was a one time thing, this is a thrill killer. Is this someone you want back on the streets living in your community?
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on September 20, 2003 01:39:42 PM
Kraft I understand your point, but I reiterate my point, he was old enough to sqweeze the trigger & kill, that makes him old enough to die for his premediated killings. Especially now after he has bragged about it to his guards.
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. ~ Thomas Jefferson
[ edited by BEAR1949 on Sep 20, 2003 01:41 PM ]
posted on September 20, 2003 05:13:37 PM
I know what you mean. One side of me says these people should be executed in the same way they murder others. The other side thinks that murderers are more than just the sum of their bad deeds and should be given a chance at rehabilitation behind bars, especially if they're under 18. Even behind bars, they might be worthy of something, but with the extreme violence that's involved with many of today's murders, especially if the criminals have long records, I wonder if they will ever be able to change.
As far as Malvo goes, he doesn't have any history of violence, so he could have been brainwashed by Mohammed. If that proves to be true, I don't think he should get the death penalty.
posted on September 20, 2003 06:21:34 PM
OK - the kid was manipulated.
Not only is he half baked but he's never going to be poped back in the oven and finished now.
The time to help this kid is way past. It's a opportunity everyone missed.
Now I'm just interested in some hand wringing old man in skirts not telling me I have to live with this kid back out on the street. Then when he kills a few more the guy that turned him loose won't even have the courtesy to say - my bad.
posted on September 20, 2003 08:25:31 PM
gravid, I agree; the idea of malvo living in my neighborhood and then he kills again would not sit easy with me...
I know people want to believe that a 17 year old kid can change, but what about his victims?
posted on September 20, 2003 08:32:32 PM
Sorry guys, I live in Virginia. And they're gonna execute this boy! Virginia is only 2nd to Texas for death penalty deaths and they're not real sympathic about social or mental disorders.
They (Malvo and stepfather) terrorized Maryland, DC, and Virginia for months! It wasn't like a one time mistake he made...they even enjoyed the notoriety! Malvo must have had some fantasy going on in his head about what they were doing. Obviously he is not "right". But he consciously took people's lives away.
posted on September 20, 2003 08:55:00 PM
That's true neroter12. I think anyone who commits murder has to be nuts but how can you tell the truly ill from the regular murderer? A teenager that feels the need to murder, is abnormal, unless they are being influenced by drugs, alcohol, another person, etc. IF Malvo was being influenced in some way, he might not have had full control over his thinking when he committed the crimes.
posted on September 20, 2003 09:56:23 PM
With the numerous prisoners being released from death row because of DNA evidence I'm no longer happy with the Death Penalty unless it was a cut and dry case and the prisoner forgoes his appeals like Gary Gilmore did in the '70's in Utah.
I worked with a guy that told me a story about his almost connection with Gilmore. It was in the 1970's and the guy was a 'summer only' hire where I worked.
He and his wife had been attending BYU in Provo, Utah and with 26,000 students it was hard to get a part-time job in the town. He said he got very lucky and got the ideal deal for a student, a graveyard shift at a motel where he could study and do homework all night as nobody in the motel ever needed asistance and few travelers ever arrived late. Just before he left he showed a new guy the ropes at the motel, another young guy that was married like he was. A few nights after he left Gary Gilmore killed the new clerk/student. Gilmore was executed in less than a year as he wanted to die and Utah accommodated him.
-------------- sig file ----------- Most costume jewelry is unsigned. After all, the vast majority of it was made to be worn a few times, then discarded. It wasn't made to be durable. --- The Fluffster
posted on September 20, 2003 10:00:53 PM
Reduce spending on education, mental health, and social welfare etc, execute this kid and let God sort him out, and spend the savings on military.
posted on September 20, 2003 11:35:26 PM
Nero - I used to live in Virginia as well, as soon as I heard about the trial taking place there I knew (as did the prosecuters) that chances were good of getting a death penalty sentence from a Virginia jury. Krafty - if it makes you feel any better, it is the jury and not the judge or prosecution that decides death or life without parole.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on September 21, 2003 05:04:18 AM
kraft from other threads here, I am surprised you can tell the difference between mental illness and normailty... letting deviants get married certainly is mental illness and more real than Malvo's "supposed" mental state...
posted on September 21, 2003 10:18:18 AM
I think what people fail to recognize is that sociopaths and psychopaths are not neccessarily insane via the legal definition. They are well aware that their actions are against the law, they simply do not care. In many cases, it is that very fact that inspires the action. Shock and appall.
Just because any action is inconceivable to most does not mean that the person that committed it is insane, just that their moral compass is adjusted differently from that deemed acceptable by society.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on September 21, 2003 11:58:44 AM
Twelve, I think I explained myself pretty well, and to be honest, I think you did a pretty good job too - up until the time you had to bring in your deviant-hang-ups as a comparison. You just can't get past those gay people, can you?
Fenix, the biggest problem with any crime, is the emotional attachment. That's why some cases are moved out of state. Whether a person is mentally ill or not, makes little difference if the crime was especially violent - people want blood. This clouds reasonable thinking IF the person(s) involved really does/do have mental illness.
You state... "Just because any action is inconceivable to most does not mean that the person that committed it is insane, just that their moral compass is adjusted differently from that deemed acceptable by society." (You're very wise!) I think this is what Twelve was getting at also, and I agree, but the opposite can be just as true. Maybe Malvo isn't ill, but maybe he is. If he is, sending him to death, would be wrong... that's all I'm getting at.
posted on September 21, 2003 12:11:53 PM
Krafty - then it is the responsibility ofhis defense to bring up and to prove that he is mentally ill. The problem is that when he said that they attempted to kill the teenager because they knew it would piss off the sherrif, he admitted that he was aware of the repercussions of his actions and that tosses an insanity defense out the window.
The kid is twisted and he seems to be without a conscience. That's not a correctable problem. Do you honestly think it is more humane to tell him that he will live out the rest of his life in a 6 x 9 cell? I assume that you don't believe he should ever be released so I have to wonder which you truly feel is more humane - death, or a lifetime of knowing that you will never have a second of your life that is truly free, unconfined and uncontrolled by others.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on September 21, 2003 12:24:34 PM
The emotional side of me says that they should both be put to death for taking so many lives under the most cowardace circumstances... either black or white. But the other side thinks there might be grey areas with the Malvo boy, making him act the way he does. Has he always been sociopathic or just since hanging out with Mohammed?
Good point about whether spending life in jail is better than the death penalty... that's a tough one Fenix!
posted on September 21, 2003 12:57:56 PM
Sociopath is not something that you are turned into in your mid to late teen. Some believe that it is something that you are born with, others that is is something that developes early in life. A sociopath never developes a conscience. It probably has more to do with his mother and his disjointed very early years when they together and she individually were moving around, not building connections, moving in and out of various peoples lives and the lack of a standard base. Her here and there presence in his life. Mohammad could not have turned him into a sociopath at the stage of the game that he entered Malvos life. He could only have recognized and related to the tendancies.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on September 21, 2003 01:27:06 PM
But, a person can show signs of sociopathic behaviour and not be sociopathic, if they've been influenced by another person long enough, and/or if drugs or alcohol are involved. That's why murder cases involving underage kids needs to be looked at more closely than just the crime itself.
In this case, Malvo could very well be completely sane and was a partner with Mohammed, but their age difference would seem to point to influence. If that's the case, the death penalty wouldn't fit.
