posted on September 21, 2003 04:24:38 PM
I don't support the death penalty for juveniles, but I think that anyone over the age of 13 who commits 1st degree murder or other serious crimes should get life in prison without parole.
posted on September 21, 2003 04:56:16 PMProsecutors rejected the argument that international law trumped state or U.S. law.
And I hope it NEVER does. I never want to see International law telling US courts/citizens what we can and can't do to murderers in our own country. This 'one world mindset' is taken too far by too many on the left.
At 17 he knew full well what he was doing. They both terrorized the citizens of several states. I'm glad the the final decision on where to prosecute him, ended up being in a state where they have no problem handing out the death penalty. I have no sympathy for anyone who commits these type of crimes.
If he's found guilty, he gets what he gave to others who had done *nothing* to deserve what they got...death.
posted on September 21, 2003 06:44:48 PM
Consider this. If sentanced to life in prison without chance of parole, the kid at age 17 now, with a typical life expectancy of 80 years will spend 63 years in prison. At a normal cost to the taxpayers of $30,000 per year(expected to increase each year by $5,000) that totals a minimum of $1,890,000.
Is it worth spending $2 M just to keep him alive.
Not hardly, when the cost of a bullet is $0.75.
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. ~ Thomas Jefferson
posted on September 21, 2003 07:02:55 PM
Bear, I heard it costs that much to execute someone. I could never figure out how but I guess when it's all added up, it's expensive. Seeing that they would both cost the same, what difference would there be, for you, in keeping him in jail forever?
posted on September 24, 2003 11:26:45 PM
Fenix: Yeah Virginians are pretty conservative, but then weirdly flake out on other things, that surprize you. But if I had to bet, I'd say he's gone.
Did any of you recall the story about the woman who put her child in the microwave thinking he was demonic? Well, she was clearly insane, right? (Not to mention Andrea Mitchell in Texas.) So I agree Kraft has a point. I always say you cant find something reasonable out of what has no reason to start with.
I do think Mohammad influenced him and convinced him to go along with this.
I think he had some vigilante thing going in his mind? Is that insanity? Who is to know? Sure is delusion to say he least. But by law it now will not be even considered because of he has attested he knew the difference.
Whatever anyone's opinion is of capital punishment, it should not be applied to children whose personalities are so malleable. In this case, Malvo was brainwashed by Muhammed. It was reported that Malvo felt that he was obligated to Muhammad for being a father to him.
Muhammad reportedly used books, movies and audiotapes about philosophy, war and the oppression of black men in the United States to lead Malvo to believe that the government and all people were against black Americans.
Executing children is barbarity and as a civilized society we should all be ashamed.
posted on September 25, 2003 07:29:08 AM
helen - Executing children is barbarity and as a civilized society we should all be ashamed.
No, you have it wrong once again. Malvo is the one who should be ashamed of what he did to all those innocent people in our society.
I think you should have been a public defender, since you always seem to side with those who commit crimes like these, rather than being able to identify with the VICTIMS in these cases. Put yourself in their shoes. If your daughter had been one of the victims, would you be so quick to defend why they probably did the terrible deed that they did? I doubt it.
posted on September 25, 2003 07:39:49 AM Texas is the World's Only Jurisdiction to Execute Juveniles Offenders in 2002
According to a recent report issued by Amnesty International, Texas was the only jurisdiction in the world to execute a juvenile offender in 2002. Texas executed three black juvenile offenders last year, Napoleon Beazley, T.J. Jones, and Toronto Patterson.
Amnesty International reports that seven countries since 1990 are known to have executed prisoners who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime - Congo (Democratic Republic), Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, United States, and Yemen. Of these nations, the United States has executed the largest number of juvenile offenders...[url=http://web.amnesty.org/library/print/ENGACT500022003]report[/url
Your entire comment, as usual, is focused on me personally rather than the question under consideration which is, should children be executed?
Of course I have sympathy for the victims. This happened in my neighborhood within walking distance from my house. I saw where the poor people were shot. I am not attempting to defend his actions but since he was a child when his mind was warped, I think that we should make an effort to understand.
A civilized society should not retaliate or seek revenge by murdering children.
posted on September 25, 2003 08:32:19 AM
I think it really lies on what side of the death penalty you are on. When my sister was murdered back in 1984, the death penalty was an option and we chose as a family not to seek it. In 2000 the person that was convicted of this crime escaped from prison while on a minimal supervised work program. We had to spend the next three weeks with the kids locked in the house and a constant police patrol due to the threats this man has made in the house. I slept in the day and stayed up during the night on the couch with a gun. Thank god he was captured ( Ironically hiding in the exact same spot he murdered and left my sister) before he could cause harm to any one else. That made me rethink some of my thoughts on the death penalty overall and if I had to do it all over again I am not sure which way I would go.I have some strong religious beliefs against the death penalty but if that individual would have killed again after his escape the sorrow that he would have given to yet another family would have weighed heavily on me. As a side note we did lobby and changed the laws in our state that allowed violent criminal to work in those programs. They are no longer allowed to do so , so at least some good came out of it. Bottom line I think age has less to do with it than the remorse or lack there of. If there ever was a case for the death penalty against a minor this would be it, however something could be learned by his incarceration and studying what and why this individual turned out the way he did.
posted on September 25, 2003 08:33:15 AM
helen - is focused on me personally rather than the question
Maybe that's why you bleeding heart liberals are always so willing to want others to consider why they may have done their sick deeds or what caused them to do it. And then give excuses for why they weren't really at fault for their OWN actions....and therefore should not, be held accountable.
Maybe you [bleeding-heart liberals] don't have the emotion ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes [victims/family of the victims]....and even think about how it would feel if something like this happening to yourself or your own family member.
posted on September 25, 2003 08:36:34 AM
gosh, tomyou, I'm so sorry to hear about your sister. How terrible. Thanks for sharing your personal experience with us.
posted on September 25, 2003 08:38:42 AM
If you stop to consider that these juveniles have been certified as ADULTS because of their actions. This certification is determined by the juveniles criminal history & predisposition to commit further crimes.
Once certified, they are no longer juveniles & are treated as their action requires. They are adults. As such they should be required to pay as any other adult.
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. ~ Thomas Jefferson
posted on September 25, 2003 08:45:05 AM
Would you consider a mentally retarded child accountable, Linda?...just curious.
States prohibiting execution of retarded children
Arizona
Arkansas
Colorado
Connecticut
Florida
Georgia
Indiana
Kansas
Kentucky
Maryland
Missouri
Nebraska
New York
New Mexico
North Carolina.
South Dakota
Tennessee
Washington Total - 18
States prohibiting execution of children
California
Colorado
Connecticut
Illinois
Indiana
Kansas
Maryland
Montana
Nebraska
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
Ohio
Oregon
Tennessee
Washington Total - 16
posted on September 25, 2003 09:08:26 AM
"Mentally retarded" when put in the hands of a defense attorney takes on a whole new scope. A good atorrney can find some form of mental issues with any client if he hires the correct examiners. I would only consider it a credible issue if that individual where diagnosed with mental retardation BEFORE said crime. Then it would have some true legitamcy. Still then it would depend on the level of his retardation. many people with a minor learning disability are technicaly considered "mentally retarded". If the level of retardation does not inhibit the ability to tell right from wrong than no that should no be a factor, and again I think it would be important for this to be documented before the crime. Ones mental capacity can be viewed any any number of ways post crime to fit a defense.
posted on September 25, 2003 09:08:59 AM
helen - Don't know why you'd bring this up if it's not applicable to this Malvo case. But..to answer, I think EACH case of a juvenile needs to be evaluated on an individual case-by-case basis. WHICH I believe they are.
-----------
Malvo's birthday was 2-18. Malvo will turn 18 on February 18th, and will lose the guidance of his court appointed guardian, Todd G. Petit.
These shootings began [correct me if I'm wrong] on 10-2. That means he was only four months away from being 18. Do you believe those four months would have made a difference in the way he acted? I don't. So...to me arguing he was a juvenile is pointless. We're not talking, in this case, of a 10 - 15 year old. NOR are we talking about a retarted child.
posted on September 25, 2003 09:12:25 AMI would only consider it a credible issue if that individual where diagnosed with mental retardation BEFORE said crime. Then it would have some true legitamcy. Still then it would depend on the level of his retardation.
posted on September 25, 2003 09:22:55 AM
Even if I believed in the execution of children, I would not hesitate to answer the question that I asked you, Linda. Your hedged answer must indicate that you would execute retarded children on a case by case basis?
This thread was intended to discuss the practice in this country of executing children. The Malvo case was used since it is currently in the news. BTW...His case was transferred to Virginia where they not only execute children but also retarded children.
I suspected that you would fail to consider the fact that these children are from families in which they suffered abuse, deprivation and poverty...but I never suspected that you would consider executing a retarded child on a case by case basis.
You say that we aren't talking about a 10-15 year old child but we really are. During that time period children are vulnerable to the domination or example of parental figures.
posted on September 25, 2003 09:35:28 AM
What's the matter with you? I didn't hedge. I was *quite* clear. Case-by-case basis. A lot of variables would/could make my decision go one way or the other. A decision I'd make, unlike the position you appear to hold, would NOT be based on whether it was one day before they 18th birthday....legally making them a juvenile. It would be based on ALL the circumstance involved in that *individual* case.
posted on September 25, 2003 09:40:51 AM
Helen, EVERY single case (no matter the age or crime) should be on an case by case basis because every individual is just that, an Individual and the circumstances will always be unique in some form or manner. To say all cases should be the same or all outcomes should be the same if convicted is just silly. All children of poverty or abuse, deprivation and poverty do not turn to crime. Many use it as spring board for great things. Just like all children of wealth and privlege do not turn into model citizens, many of them use that as an excuse to do as they please. Yes there are some that have mental capacity issues that qualify for the dealth penalty and some that do not (even in the states you mentioned) by saying you favor the death penalty in one case does not mean you favor it in all cases. ALL facts should be considered in ALL cases and decisions made case by case and lumping into a certain category to use that as an excuse or a defense is wrong. Good and bad come from both sides of the tracks and is not a viable excuse in my opinion.
posted on September 25, 2003 10:03:19 AM
No, tomyou...It's not silly. I included the phrase, "case by case" because that is how you and Linda hedge your answer. The truth apparently is that you would kill "some" retarded children?
I believe that the adult society should share some responsibility for the crimes of children. If you check the cases of children accused of such crime, you will find adults who failed many of them. You will find mentally retarded or emotionally disturbed adolescents who grew up in an environment of abuse, deprivation and poverty. To even consider executing such children is savage.
And in addition, it sends a message that we settle our problems through violence.
posted on September 25, 2003 10:11:56 AM
tomyou - you *savage* you. Heaven forbid you and I would want to have all the facts in front of us before committing to a decision.
posted on September 25, 2003 10:26:41 AM
Thats right if that CASE proved that that individuals level of retardation had no effect of his ability to tell the difference from right and wrong and the understanding of his or her actions then the appropriate sentence should be handed out ( were is the hedge in that ???????) You aren't going to get me to say all should be let off or all should be convicted because that isn't how things operate in the real world and thats not hedging thats being realistic. do you know of any trial that shouldn't be handled on a case by case basis ? Ok all those with an income below $20,000 you get this set of penalties, all those with an income of $80,000 or more this set and all those in between this set. No sentance phase needed because I guess they are all the same ? Wanting things setled on a case by case basis does not mean one favors the death penalty for the mentally handicapped it means you want to find out if that individual had the capacity to understand their actions and the difference between right and wrong and if so they should be held up to the same set of laws as the rest of us. Everyone has people who fail them in thier life and that is not a freedom card. Some have it easier than others and neither is that. The criminal justice system is set up to work on a case by case basis and following that system is not hedging as you would like to imply. Their is not a defense attorney around that couldn't get a paid physciatric opinion that their client has some sort of mental issues so what is your answer to that ? I explained cleary earlier that without previous documentation of problems all post crime evaluations are suspect to the Defense or Prosecutor that gets them and if they truly have mental issues their will be some sort of documentation of that from thier past and that information should be considered heavily.
posted on September 25, 2003 10:27:01 AM
You are in the minority again, Linda. Over 70% of Americans oppose the death penalty for children.
American Bar Association Juvenile Justice Center - (202) 662 1506 - www.abanet.org/crimjust/juvjus/juvdp.html
Cruel and Unusual Punishment
Factsheet: The Juvenile Death Penalty
Be it resolved, that the American Bar Association opposes, in principle, the imposition of capital
punishment upon any person for any offense committed while under the age of eighteen (18).
ABA policy opposing juvenile death penalty
FACTS ABOUT THE JUVENILE DEATH PENALTY
There are 78 persons on death row in the US who were juveniles (age 16 or 17) at the time of the
crime. Since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976, 22 juvenile offenders have been executed.
22 states permit the juvenile death penalty, but only Texas, Virginia, and Oklahoma have executed
more than one juvenile offender (13, 3, and 2 respectively). Four other states have each executed
one.
Since the Supreme Court last considered the issue, the states of Washington, New York, Kansas,
Montana and Indiana have established laws prohibiting the death penalty for juvenile offenders.
The U.S. and Iran are the only nations that formally allow the practice. Although Nigeria and
Saudi Arabia are believed to have executed juvenile offenders in 1997 and 1992 respectively, both
governments vehemently deny this. Seven international treaties prohibit it, and the Inter-
American Commission on Human Rights recently held that the U.S. is violating a pre-emptive
norm of international law by continuing the practice.
In 2002, Texas was the only jurisdiction in the world to execute juvenile offenders (3). This year,
Oklahoma is the only jurisdiction in the world known to have executed a juvenile offender.
69% of US adults oppose the death penalty for juveniles (Gallup, May 2002).
Recent studies by Harvard Medical School, the National Institute of Mental Health and UCLAs
Department of Neuroscience have shown that the parts of the brain that govern judgment,
reasoning and impulse control are not fully developed until the early twenties.
ORGANIZATIONS OPPOSING THE JUVENILE DEATH PENALTY
American Academy of Child and
Adolescent Psychiatry
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Bar Association
American Psychiatric Association
Child Welfare League
National Education Association
National Mental Health Association
Childrens Defense Fund
American Baptist Churches
American Jewish Committee
Catholic Bishops of America
Presbyterian Church USA
United Methodist Church
More organizations with policies opposing the juvenile death penalty can be found at:
[url]www.abanet.org/crimjust/juvjus/resources.html#Pols[/url
Criminal Justice Section
Juvenile Justice Center
April, 2003
AMERICAN BAR ASSOCIATION .
posted on September 25, 2003 10:33:45 AM
Really linda heck why have trails at all. I already explained earlier I am no fan of the death penalty and spoke against it for the person that killed my own sister. Now it appear as if I want all mentally hanicapped people executed. Just show that one can read just about anything they want into anothers statements. My overall point is no case is unique and no case should be treated as if it isn't, that would be the crime. Helen, should a person with mental issues be subject to prison at all in your opinion and if so or not what is the point that allows such a sentence or lack there of ? any mental capacity problem or socio-economic problem get probation or half way house ? where is the line in your view? no hedging now because all cases should be the same !
posted on September 25, 2003 10:36:08 AMROFLMHO @ You are in the minority again, Linda.
Oh....gosh, now maybe I should reconsider my beliefs that have taken me a lifetime to form only because I'm in the minority of those who feel this way. LOL
What a laugh, helen. I don't base my opinions/beliefs on how the minority nor majority view the different issues.
Heaven forbid you and I would want to have all the facts in front of us before committing to a decision.
heck why have trails at all. I already explained earlier I am no fan of the death penalty and spoke against it for the person that killed my own sister. Now it appear as if I want all mentally hanicapped people executed. Just show that one can read just about anything they want into anothers statements. My overall point is no case is unique and no case should be treated as if it isn't, that would be the crime. Helen, should a person with mental issues be subject to prison at all in your opinion and if so or not what is the point that allows such a sentence or lack there of ? any mental capacity problem or socio-economic problem get probation or half way house ? where is the line in your view? no hedging now because all cases should be the same !