Helenjw
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posted on September 25, 2003 10:40:41 AM
No child should be executed under any circumstances. And, I would think, tomyou, that a diagnosis of mental retardation would indicate, even to you, a diminished ability to think rationally and would therefore present a significant justification to exclude that child from execution. The Psychiatric evaluation may be incorrect as you suggested but when death is under consideration, we can't afford to use that excuse and risk killing a retarded child.
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Linda_K
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posted on September 25, 2003 10:45:13 AM
tomyou - I already explained....yes, but I comprehended what you said. 
I, too, wouldn't support the death penalty IF I hadn't, over the course of my long lifetime, seen what has continue to happen in the past. That is...there are just too many times when the convicted people either get out for good behavior or something [read here - anything comes about] that changes the laws and then these murderers are released. Including the cases where they have been given 'life sentences'....sometimes two or three life sentences.
Life in prison, to me, means until they die in prison...not until some 'special' circumstance comes into play. Until then...I fully support the death penalty.
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tomyou
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posted on September 25, 2003 10:56:02 AM
My point is the using the term "mental retardation" in it's most technical meaning can be applied to a HUGE scope of things. there are people tagged as "menatlly handicapped" that have degrees and are excellent business men or women. It is misused in many cases by defense as a catch phrase word to tilt jurors and sadly their is a never ending abundance of physciatric "professionals" that go to the highest bidder for this sole purpose. Most do not appear at trials without a fee.I don't think anyone should be paid to testify at a trail. that is why pre trail documentaion is key in my opinion. and if that documentation is provided than so be it.
so, where is the line and what do you do to those who fall below it ?
Is prison also no appropriate and if it is for some and not for others what is the turning point ?
Do juvis get a get out free card at 18 or do they go to gen pop at 18 ?
As a juror I would still not consider the death penalty in any case because my life experiences may tilt my judgement so I would have to excuse myself from any such case lest I be used as a scapegoat on any sort of an appeal for either side. i guess you would consider that hedging also ?
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tomyou
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posted on September 25, 2003 11:02:06 AM
Linda to top off your point. The person convicted in my sisters case was given a life sentence. What does that mean you ask ? Means you are up for parol in 35 years ( less with good behavior )! Truth in sentencing should be applied and has changed in many states over the years but not all of them.
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BEAR1949
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posted on September 25, 2003 11:22:43 AM
Linda, I guess they just don't get it.
Namely, IF YOU'RE OLD ENOUGH TO DO THE CRIME, YOU'RE OLD ENOUGH PAY THE PRICE
As to the retarded junenile issue, I have never heard of (in TX) a retarded (mentally ill) juvenile that has ever been certified as an adult to stand trial for a capital offense
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. ~ Thomas Jefferson
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Helenjw
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posted on September 25, 2003 11:32:53 AM
"As a juror I would still not consider the death penalty in any case because my life experiences may tilt my judgement so I would have to excuse myself from any such case lest I be used as a scapegoat on any sort of an appeal for either side. i guess you would consider that hedging also ?"
No, I would not consider that hedging. Every juror is asked at the beginning of a trial if there is any reason that their judgement might be biased and in your case, you would be telling the truth.
When I asked Linda the question, Would you consider a retarded child accountable, and expected a yes or no answer, I received what I believe were hedged or non committal answers.
First, Linda answered, "Is you position that Malvo was retarted...or just taking this to a new area?"
So, I asked again...Would you consider a retarded child accountable?
Linda answered, "Don't know why you'd bring this up if it's not applicable to this Malvo case. But..to answer, I think EACH case of a juvenile needs to be evaluated on an individual case-by-case basis. WHICH I believe they are."
These answers were intended to lessen impact and are therefore hedged.
Now, about the sentences of children that you mentioned. I don't believe in a sentence to punish children but rather time to rehabilitate and that should be decided on a case by case basis.
Helen
[ edited by Helenjw on Sep 25, 2003 11:56 AM ]
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tomyou
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posted on September 25, 2003 12:11:27 PM
So using the Malvo case as the example. What would be your recomendation as a fair sentence ? He is no longer a child so no juvenile facility cant accept him. Do you say that since he was 4 months from 18 that a prison sentence should no be acceptable either ? Lock up and mediacated in a mental facility and if so once deemed mentaly stable do you release him ? Is their a time frame for determining mentaly stability ? If in he is deemed better in 2 years is it ok to set in back into society ?
taking the dealth penalty off the table as a hypothetical and If he is deemed mentaly stable then convicted at trial. How do you sentence him? Can't be put in an mental institution, can't be put in juvi, and since he was a child at the time cant be put in prison . What then would you have done to him ?
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Helenjw
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posted on September 25, 2003 12:40:15 PM
tomyou
Your question infers that you believe there is no appropriate placement for a kid like Malvo and you are probably right.
Based on what I have heard, currently, the penal institution is an abomnible failure in rehabilitation efforts. Malvo will be placed in an age appropriate penal environment from which I doubt that he will ever immerge. The fact that there are no rehab centers appropriate for Malvo however, is no excuse to kill him. Being separated from Muhammed for a period of time may be all the treatment that he will require.
Helen
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fenix03
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posted on September 25, 2003 12:45:28 PM
Hlen - how does one rehabilitate a thrill killer?
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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Helenjw
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posted on September 25, 2003 12:56:34 PM
Good question, fenix. Do you have a suggestion?
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tomyou
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posted on September 25, 2003 01:04:01 PM
Not sure it CAN be done. Perhaps one can be institutionalized and studied to perhaps find some reasons for their actions and the lack of any remorse be it mental or otherwise. But, then doesn't that just make him a glorified lab rat ? a modern day lector if you will ?
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Helenjw
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posted on September 25, 2003 01:17:25 PM
"Not sure it CAN be done. Perhaps one can be institutionalized and studied to perhaps find some reasons for their actions and the lack of any remorse be it mental or otherwise. But, then doesn't that just make him a glorified lab rat ? a modern day lector if you will ?"
Maybe not. That problem will have to be left to psychologists, psychiatrists criminologists and educators...As you suggested, he will probably add to their knowledge.
Helen
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Linda_K
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posted on September 25, 2003 02:09:57 PM
That problem will have to be left to psychologists, psychiatrists criminologists and educators...As you suggested, he will probably add to their knowledge.
LOL....sure...dream on helen.
If he is found guilty, he will be executed...and rightfully so for what he did to many, many people. There will be no 'studies' at all. lol
We barely have enough funds to keep these criminals locked up now, as it is. They release criminals all the time because the jails are too full and have been ordered to release when their population numbers exceed a certain level.
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Linda_K
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posted on September 25, 2003 02:12:46 PM
LOL fenix - I think helen just did to you what she accuses me of doing with her question......hedging. 
her answer to the question you put to her:
Good question, fenix. Do you have a suggestion? lol
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Linda_K
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posted on September 25, 2003 02:22:44 PM
Yes, bear, I agree....some people just don't 'get' it. I can understand when religious convictions keep anyone from supporting the death penalty. I don't agree, but I do understand where they're coming from.
But it's the bleeding heart liberals who constantly make excuses for why these type of killers to what they do. And it's never the killers fault....always the fault of someone else. Or societies fault because they want to permanently remove them from the streets, where they no longer present a threat to society.
--------------
IF any funds should ever become available...I'd agree with those who believe they should be spent on the victims or their families not the criminals/killers, to study them.
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Helenjw
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posted on September 25, 2003 02:32:30 PM
Linda,
I don't think that fenix's question was serious. She doesn't really expect me to know how to rehabilitate a killer. You've put me on a pedestal, Linda, but it's not that high. LOL!.
Helen
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Linda_K
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posted on September 25, 2003 02:47:55 PM
Since you're usually the one calling for these criminals/juveniles to be rehabilitated, I thought it a VERY fair question. Now you admit to not having all the answers....what a treat.
it was hedging, helen....pure and simple.
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Helenjw
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posted on September 25, 2003 02:55:59 PM
Linda,
I'm not a psychiatrist and I don't think that fenix expected me to plan the rehab of a killer in 500 words or less.
How silly.
Helen
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tomyou
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posted on September 25, 2003 03:23:54 PM
Electroconvulsion therapy has made a minor comeback for extreme cases. helen would you agree to electroconvulsion therapy in a case like malvos if deemed suitable by whoever his health care specialist would be ?if so why and if not why not ?
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Helenjw
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posted on September 25, 2003 04:06:45 PM
Why do you recommend a therapy for major depressive illness, tomyou? We need a diagnosis first.
Helen
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MAH645
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posted on September 25, 2003 04:59:25 PM
It use to amaze me how many prisoners at Starke Fla use to act nuts just so they would be sent to the state mental hospital down the road a few miles where my mother spend many years. Alot of them never returned to the prison, as they would get killed. A kid 17 knows what they are doing and should pay the same price as an adult. We need to quit making excuses for peoples actions and let them pay the price for what they do.
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Helenjw
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posted on September 25, 2003 05:41:45 PM
MAH645
What age would you consider too young to execute?
Helen
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tomyou
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posted on September 25, 2003 07:48:41 PM
Umm helen, I said if "if deemed suitable by whoever his health care specialist would be" that would be a diagnosed opinion ! The question was if given that opinion do you support that type of therapy ?
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Helenjw
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posted on September 25, 2003 08:15:27 PM
Where, tomyou are you driving?
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Twelvepole
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posted on September 25, 2003 08:30:14 PM
The best rehab we can give a killer is death...
It seems to me that some here are forgetting about the victims and all of their suffering... why should the person who killed them still be alived to live?
You may say all it is revenge, of course it is... why should it be any other way?
Or maybe we can get lucky and he will go the way of the priest...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
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Twelvepole
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posted on September 25, 2003 08:36:32 PM
Wanted add...
You may dream of it as a pedestal Helen, the rest of us see it as pile....
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
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Helenjw
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posted on September 25, 2003 08:53:40 PM
I don't dream of a pedestal twelvepole.
That was Linda's idea.
Your idea is just as ludicrous and as usual a shitty one.
Helen
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kiara
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posted on September 25, 2003 09:25:49 PM
Every woman deserves to sit up on a pedestal now and again.
Helen, I think you look just fine up there.
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tomyou
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posted on September 25, 2003 09:29:21 PM
Not driving anywere helen. Just curious about your thoughts on that type of rehab. not really any different than the questions you raised. Just tossing in a sometime controversialy used treatment and seeing if you deemed it a viable option and why or why not you felt that why.
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Helenjw
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posted on September 25, 2003 10:09:46 PM
Thanks for the lift, kiara
Tomyou,
I can't recommend electroshock therapy because I don't know anything about it.
Helen
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