posted on September 26, 2003 12:02:44 AM
Helen - you are right, I really didn't expect you to give me an answer as to how one would rehabilitate an thrill killer but when you talk about rehabilitation I wonder if you believe that all can be rehabilitated.
I think that thrill killers are missing key emotional and social elements and no matter who is to blame for that (yes, I do aknowledge that this is predominantly caused by childhood abuse or neglect issues) it's not a curable condition.
I guess rather than asking how one would rehabilitate a thrill killer, a better question would be... do you believe one CAN rehabilitate a thrill killer.
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on September 26, 2003 05:13:55 AM
If the question of "how" can't be answered, it will be interesting to see if the question of "can" is answered...
If you mean by rehabilitation, that he will become mentally healthy and acceptable to society...I don't think so...as I indicated previously. Someone who has been so thoroughly corupted, indoctrinated and brainwashed will be a tough case or as you suggest an "incurable condition".
posted on September 26, 2003 09:01:07 AM
Twelve - my question was because I am trying to understand aspects of Helens view point.
That said...
Helen - if you do not believe that a thrill killer can be rehabilitated then I assume you also do not believe that they should be released.
If a person is never going to be released into society, and realisitically still poses a danger within the prison system to other inmates, why do you want to keep him alive?
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on September 26, 2003 09:24:53 AM"If a person is never going to be released into society, and realisitically still poses a danger within the prison system to other inmates, why do you want to keep him alive?"
Fenix, that's radical to suggest that all people who are chronically mentally ill and need to be institutionalized should be killed.
posted on September 26, 2003 03:32:29 PM
Helen - you are right, that would be - I was speaking specifically of thrill killers.
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on September 26, 2003 04:01:29 PM
I understand, fenix, that you consider Malvo a "thrill" killer and with that designation of "thrill" killer, murdering him would seem justifiable even though he was cruelly brainwashed as a child and even though he fell under the legal definition of a child when the killings occurred. I can't agree. Killing children no matter how deranged they may be is not acceptable in a civilized society.
posted on September 26, 2003 06:58:41 PM
I don't believe that Malvo was brainwashed as a child. He was not a child when he met Mohammad. By 15 or 16 you have already formed a social conscience. This kid did not have one. I could buy manipulation for 1 murder, maybe even two... but these two are believed to have commited over a dozen. Somewhere in there, if he had a conscience, it should have kicked in. It didn't. Instead, they chose to shoot a teen to piss off the sheriff. He is a thrill killer. His age does not change that.
If we were talking about an 11 years old, I would agree with you, but this kid was 17 years old. Are you telling me that at 17 you have the maturity level to decide what college you will go to, what area of study you will pursue and write application essays but you are not mature enough to know that assasinating a dozen people is not a proper course of action? Sorry but I just don't buy that.
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on September 27, 2003 04:51:59 AM
I agree with you Fenix....
What I also believe is that today's parents are forcing their children to grow up at a much eailer time than ever before... they want and in some cases demand treat as adults but whenever it comes to crime they want to recind back just being "kids"... well murder and multiple murders are not "kids", I don't hold that Malvo was brainwashed at all, I think he enjoyed doing it and will do it again if not put down.
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
posted on September 28, 2003 05:56:35 AMThis La Times story is the best account that I could find of Malvo's history with Muhammed.
Before he met Muhammed, Malvo was described as a good student, very polite and brilliant by class mates and teachers.
In conclusion....
" The question remains: If this impressionable young man really was yanked from his family and friends, isolated from outside influences, and inculcated with hatred, greed, and a lust to kill, does that absolve him of the evil he committed? Does it at least mitigate against executing him? Can one be so enthralled by another that one's own true self is lost? And if that is the case, is there any reason to believe that the "real" Malvo could ever be regained? This leaves jurors to make a near-impossible decision about evil and character, about redemption and free will and determinism; about whether a child can be morally ruined to the point that he should be discarded. These are more theological questions than legal ones. But perhaps that is also ultimately fitting for a jury that will be deciding whether a young man will die."
posted on September 28, 2003 10:00:30 AM
:: " The question remains: If this impressionable young man really was yanked from his family and friends, isolated from outside influences, and inculcated with hatred, greed, and a lust to kill, does that absolve him of the evil he committed?::
If that is the question, then it was negated in your first link where it details the three seperate times Malvo was not "yanked" away from family, but rather ran away and headed for Mohammad. I don't think he was brainwashed at all, I think he found a kindred spirit. He freely chose on three occasions to be with Mohammad, so no, in my mind at least, he is not absolved.
I am curious as to your response on the subject I hit on in the post above Helen... Why is it that when a 17 year olds are expected to make large scale decision regarding their future in terms of things like area of study and colleges to attend or the decision not to attend but when they do something stupid it is because they are only a child incapable of making good decisions regarding right and wrong?
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on September 28, 2003 10:02:33 AM
::Before he met Muhammed, Malvo was described as a good student, very polite and brilliant by class mates and teachers.::
Yes... but then look at how people described Bundy.....
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on September 28, 2003 12:14:14 PM
We don't have the Death Penalty in Canada. We also don't have people shooting each other or many murders, yet I can go to the Canadian Tire store and pick up as many guns and ammo as I want - anyone can. If the Death Penalty is a deterrant, why isn't it working in the U.S?
posted on September 28, 2003 12:31:05 PM
Krafty - because it's practiced in secret. Because the executions are kept low profile and often take decades to be carried out. Look at Saudi Arabia, they have a nearly non existant murder rate and when someone is convicted of murder, their execution is public. People see hardcore results of crime. Here in the US, we are coddling too much. Kids in gangs consider a stint in prison a badge of honor. Our justice system here is considered a joke and in most cases it is. Seems the most heinous crimes recieve the most escapable sentances. We are harder on a drug dealer than we are on murders... Plus over half of all non family related murders in the US go unsolved, and in gang shootings, most of the time barely investigated.
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on September 28, 2003 12:55:39 PM "I am curious as to your response on the subject I hit on in the post above Helen... Why is it that when a 17 year olds are expected to make large scale decision regarding their future in terms of things like area of study and colleges to attend or the decision not to attend but when they do something stupid it is because they are only a child incapable of making good decisions regarding right and wrong?"
The only information that I was able to find about Malvo's behavior before Muhammed are good reports by his family, classmates and teachers.
Without any evidence of serious behavior problems, I doubt that he could be considered a sociopath at that period in his life. I doubt also that a sociopath would be capable of such loyalty and attachment to another person such as Muhammed. You mentioned, Bundy.... He was a loner and as a typical sociopath took directions from no one.
Although there were no apparent signs of behavior problems or antisocial behavior, I suspect that Malvo's problems began early in life, before Muhammed. He would have to be emotionally disturbed to fall prey to Muhammed's mannipulation. The fact that he ran away from his mother...not once but twice to be with Muhammed is further evidence of imbalance.
You seem to believe that he was so normal that he could make a decision about which college to attend and then suddenly turn around and decide to kill a few people and then say ooops, I did something stupid...it must be my age. That's not the case. This kid had no interest outside pleasing Muhammed. That is sick, not stupid.
If you don't agree with the cutoff age that has been established, what is your definition of a child. At what age do you believe that a child should be tried as a child and sentenced accordingly.
posted on September 28, 2003 01:08:29 PM
"Look at Saudi Arabia, they have a nearly non existant murder rate" tell that to the thousands killed by Saudi's on 9/11.
Republican, the other white meat!
posted on September 28, 2003 01:11:52 PM
The politics of justice makes no sense to me either, fenix. It's such a big industry onto itself, that changing it would be like trying to get rid of unions.
The problem stems from "the right to bear arms". Now, everyone in the U.S.owns a gun or two. You don't try to work things out with your neighbours, you shoot them. A car pulls out in front of you and you shoot them. Don't like homos? Shoot them. That's how the U.S. communicates when others don't do what they want. That's taught to kids by parents who own guns and by the government who goes to war with everyone, and now we want to put a teenager to death because of it. This stuff will keep happening unless people start opening their eyes to what kids are growing up with.... imho.
posted on September 28, 2003 02:01:41 PM
Helen - I think this kid developed a sociopathic personality long ago. The lack of a father, the abandonment by the mother... besides, sociopaths are notoriusly charming and are able to manipulate people and situations to their liking. It's a byproduct of abuse. Abused personalities run one of two very different courses... one become highly susceptiple victims... but they colapse easily under emoptional duress,. The other become charming manipulative sociopthic personalities. Malvo does not seem to have colapsed anywhere along the way, seperated from his Mohammad he has not fallen into any display of regret. By all reports, he has instead been quite brazen.
Sociopaths know the difference between right and wrong, they just chose to ignore it. He knew what he was doing was wrong and that negates whatever excuse anyone may come up for why. He knew it was wrong, he did it anyway. Even if he did do it just to please Mohammad, he still made on conscious decision to aim and fire a weapon with the sole intent of taking an innocent persons life simply to fulfill his own need.
BTW - How do we know that this kid supposedly had no interest other than pleasing Mohammad... That is something I have not seen stated or read about in any of the reports on the case.
::You seem to believe that he was so normal that he could make a decision about which college to attend and then suddenly turn around and decide to kill a few people and then say ooops, I did something stupid...it must be my age::
Actually, that is not what I was saying. I used the College situation as an example of the level of maturity and expectation attributed to 16 and 17 year olds in our society. In contrast, you have branded Malvo at the same age as incapable of making the most basic of all determinations between right and wrong.
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on September 28, 2003 02:15:47 PM
It's silly for us to play amateur psychologists and try to diagnose Malvo. Let's leave that to the pros. It should be an interesting trial.
It's been awhile since I studied abnormal psychology but based on what I know, I will be very surprised if Malvo is diagnosed as a sociopath.
posted on September 28, 2003 02:35:32 PM
LOL - of course it's silly Helen but I have all my listings done and orders filled, and nothing else to do. It's either debate of so shopping... or fold the laundry... I hate folding laundry....
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on September 28, 2003 02:46:32 PM
Well, we could probably keep up with the pros. You would be a good prosecutor's shrink and I could take the stand for the defense... for $500.00 an hour we should do a fine job. LOL
posted on September 28, 2003 03:17:18 PM
I have family that works with the VA Commonwealth Attny Training Council... shall I forward our resumes
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
