posted on May 31, 2001 05:18:30 PM
In March, I paid for a used laptop computer via PayPal. Unfortunately, the seller substituted a computer that didn't match the specifications listed in the advertisement, our e-mail correspondence or the PayPal payment itself. After trying unsuccessfully to resolve this with the seller (who insisted on a 25% resocking fee), I finally contacted PayPal for assistance. I had always been under the impression that their policies were there to protect honest buyers such as myself -- They are not! After waiting thirty days for their "investigation," I finally had to insist on speaking to someone via telephone. Even though I have very good documentation showing the item I paid for and willing to return the item at my expense, PayPal has refused to process a refund from this seller. According to their final response, PayPal does not get involved in disputes over the "quality of goods received." Just because a box was delivered to my address, PayPal diesn't care what was inside. It's obvious that PayPal cares more about future fees from fraudulent sellers than it does about my protection. I am the proud owner of a laptop computer that doesn't meet my needs, is not what I ordered and is not worth what I paid. I've learned from my $530 mistake and plan on warning others about their lack of protection. If someone from PayPal is out there, I would love to have them try to justify their position on this!
I am sorry to hear of your issues with the seller, but the information on the web site about the Buyer Complaint process does mention this. Additional information can be found under the "Help" section about the terms of the Buyer Complaint Process.
posted on June 1, 2001 07:29:40 AM
"I am sorry to hear of your issues with the seller, but the information on the web site about the Buyer Complaint process does mention this. Additional information can be found under the "Help" section about the terms of the Buyer Complaint Process"
Yet another "Go away kid, you're bothering me" post from PP.
Why not actually try to help this guy rather than pointing him toward some useless info he probably has already seen????
That is the only information I can offer the buyer in this case.
Our terms of use, as well as what is covered (and how), are quite clear about attempting recovery from a fraudulent seller. However, there is not a guarantee that we will be able to do so.
Your post addressing paypaldamon is a violation of the principles of basic etiquette. Our Community Guidelines require that all members be treated with respect and considation. Paypaldamon is entitled to the same courtesy afforded any other member of AW. Please keep this in mind as you post.
posted on June 1, 2001 07:24:39 PM
i recently purchased a hp psc750 printer,copier.scanner combo machine from compusa.
this is my second purchase with them,my last one is a compaq computer.
they are both as described,mint condition.
i have bought kodak camera,scanner on ebay and both are less than satisfactory,so my personal philosophy is if that there are cetain merchandise no matter how tempting it is ,it is better to buy it from a reputable dealer.
electronic goods,expensive jewelry both fall into that catgeory.
What do you mean by "the information on the web site about the Buyer Complaint process does mention this?" That's the same boiler-plate message I received when I filed my complaint! It obviously should simply say, "Use PayPal at your own risk! We are responsible for nothing, so please don't bother us again!"
If you really work for PayPal, please look at my specific case (Case ID #41296). Maybe you can tell me why this guy is still sporting a PayPal logo on his payment website -- or is that private information. Visit http://www.intorg.com/ and tell me that PayPal isn't contonuing to support his fraudulent business practices. He's selling cars, so maybe his fees are high enough to look the other way!
Are you telling me that PayPal can't or won't try to recover my loss from this individual? What attempts were made? Here's the text I received from PayPal:
"PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy does not apply to disputes about the
attributes or quality of goods received. As a result, we cannot reverse
the transaction or issue a refund. We encourage you to continue to work
directly with the seller for an amicable resolution."
Does that sound like PayPal even tried? What if the seller doesn't want to work with me for an "amicable resolution?"
I am still more than willing to return the computer that he sent (at my own expense) if PayPal will do its part!
posted on June 1, 2001 07:49:09 PM
As described, this is a dispute regarding quality of goods, not fraud. PayPal has been very clear that they do not get involved in quality of goods disputes.
If I advertise a Mercedes and you pay for a Mercedes, but I ship you a Volkswagon, do we have a dispute over the quality of goods?
The dictionary describes "fraud" as "deceit or trickery perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage" and "something that is not what it pretends."
Bottom line... I sent the seller a payment for the item as described (in writing) and would not have paid what I did for the item I received.
I'm pretty sure that the average honest person would recognize this transaction as fradulent.
Do you work for PayPal, too?
[ edited by chansen on Jun 1, 2001 10:56 PM ]
posted on June 1, 2001 11:02:14 PMIf I advertise a Mercedes and you pay for a Mercedes, but I ship you a Volkswagon, do we have a dispute over the quality of goods?
I've read your replies to numerous other posts and I'm not at all interested in hearing from a PayPal "cheerleader."
My complaint is well documented and if you are a PayPal employee, you can research the specifics under the Case ID I provided.
I have nothing to hide and am more than willing to provide copies of any documentation requested by PayPal to assist them in resolving this matter... The problem is that PayPal hasn't requested any!
Apparently, it's easier to simply wait until the last minute (thirty days or more after the complaint was filed) and issue a boiler-plate claim denial.
As for other PayPal users claims that e-mail messages are not returned, I can attest to that as well. After numerous messages went unanswered, I telephoned twice and finally insisted on talking to someone in the investigations department. Unfortunately, this only sped up the process of my claim denial... I received it within one hour of hanging up. Now that was efficient!
Maybe my contribution towards a class action case will help PayPal do the right thing and protect other honest users in the future.
Unless you have something productive to add to this discussion, please go away!
posted on June 2, 2001 08:26:34 AM
Ok chansen, I'll go away, I'm not intending at all to harass you. I believe you were wronged.
But one last attempt. You're missing a key concept in the PayPal buyer protection plan: it doesn't cover situations where you believe that the merchandise you received does not meet the description the seller provided.
It simply doesn't cover that. No matter how clear cut your evidence might seem.
That's why no one requests more documentation.
There's another side to your story, which involves sellers. Sellers are very concerned that every case of buyer's remorse will result in a PayPal dispute; if PayPal were to support a buyer in all disputes regarding quality of goods, that would frequently be unfair to sellers. So PayPal took a concise position on this question. They don't get involved, even though that sometimes results in an unfair result to buyer. That's what feedback is for. PayPal does not accept total responsibility for every transaction.
Are you still out there? I would very much appreciate your comment on my specific situation vs. the general response you initially provided.
For the others reading this post, Part IV of PayPal's user agreement states:
"PayPal's consumer protection programs, consisting of a Buyer Complaint Policy and a Seller Protection Policy as defined below, are designed to help buyers recover from sellers who do not ship the promised goods..."
And, "If you pay a seller who does not ship the promised goods, you should first contact the seller and attempt to resolve the dispute. If you are unable to resolve the dispute in this manner, you should then file a Buyer Complaint Form with PayPal as soon as possible."
All this time, I thought I was following PayPal's own recommendations. If PayPal intends the term "promised goods" to include anything that arrives in a box, they have a pretty weak buyer protection policy!
In all fairness, I do understand that PayPal may not be able to collect (or chargeback) from every seller it investigates. Just like the police can't catch and prosecute every criminal that roams the streets. The problem is that society expects (and demands) that they take action against the ones they know about! I have seen no reasonable action on PayPal's part and in my mind, that puts them in the same boat as the fraudulent seller.
It's a shame that PayPal doesn't want to do what's right because it's too much work. A simple change to their seller protection policy could make it clear that such tactics will not be tolerated and appropriate action can be expected if PayPal determines it has taken place.
What about it paypaldamon... Are you willing to address the issues specific to my case? I promise to treat you with respect. I would just like to know someone from PayPal is listening. Maybe we could work toward some changes that are beneficial to everyone!
Thanks for the advice! I checked out the auction item that you mentioned in your post. It sounds like this guy is a fine example of a PayPal seller!
I'm wondering what efforts PayPal has made to rocover your money. Has a formal complaint been filed? According to their comunication with me, you should be within the guidelines for a refund.
Please ket me know how you come out on this! Maybe we need a sharing board to list the deadbeat sellers, our disaster stories and invite other users to drop them a message regarding their behavior. I am more than willing to send a few messages to this type of person.
I am sorry but I have had to delete your post. Posting identifying information, including auction numbers/links or IDs/links to auctions is prohibited under the Community Guidelines.
http://www.auctionwatch.com/company/terms.html
I will email a copy of your post to you - you are welcome to resubmit the information provided any identifiers are removed.
We do note the seller's account and this is done to make sure there isn't a pattern of abuse. If account records indicate an ongoing problem, we will go forward on taking action against the individual.
Most of the time, however, these disputes need to be resolved between buyer and seller.
The Buyer Complaint Process does not cover the quality of goods received, but we will take note of complaints against a seller and we will make sure there isn't a pattern of unscrupulous activity.
I had a suggestion to this problem but then realized it was a bit off topic so I created another thread for buyer/seller report card. I'm curious to see responses there.
Although your replies are still not specific to my transaction, I can appreciate PayPal making a note on the sellers account.
I am still mystified at how PayPal can call not receiving the same item I ordered and paid for as a dispute over the "quality of goods received." This certainly isn't a case of "buyer's remorse" as is often claimed by sellers. I just plain didn't get what I paid for! I can't make this point enough! Have you read my previous messages?
As the "middle-man" in this transaction, PayPal has got to shoulder part of the responsibility. If this seller had a merchant account through a bank, the chargeback would have hit him right away and continued abuse would have his account cancelled!
Unfortunately, it seems that this forum (and my communications with PayPal) are doing nothing more than venting. PayPal seems set (and comfortable) with their current policies and not interested in doing the right thing to protect honest buyers. I can only look forward, avoid future losses and hope that some sort of legal action will prevail that prevents PayPal from assisting these criminals.
In your last post, you said, "Most of the time, however, these disputes need to be resolved between buyer and seller." Do you have any suggestions (specific to my case) that I try if the seller doesn't want to resolve this?
Has PayPal even sent a message encouraging his cooperation or threatening further action if these complaints are not resolved? I am more than willing to work with PayPal or the seller for a solution, but it has been a one-sided effort!
posted on June 4, 2001 08:14:03 PM
For what it's worth, even though they pulled the original message from me (and I do understand why, no biggie) I see that you saw it...
...thought you'd like to know that the refund arrived this evening
Doesn't PayPal conveniently limit the amounts I can pay via my "credit card?" Isn't that limiting my ability to "charge back" the amount of my purchase if the transaction is fraudulent? Funny you should mention that remedy now after discouraging its use in the beginning!
If you and PayPal truly believe this is right, I might as well be talking to my mouse!
posted on June 5, 2001 07:36:16 AM
Yeah, I'm glad it got resolved too...mostly because I've read too many messages about people issuing a chargeback to recover their funds, and then having PayPal cancel their freakin' accounts for having issued the chargeback because PayPal gets hit when that happens.
Really, REALLY stupid policy, PayPal. You are accepting money (commissions, if you will), much like eBay, for providing a service to both the buyer and the seller. Since you are receiving said commission, much like eBay, you are accountable and liable for the transaction. If you aren't willing to properly handle things as a matter of dispute resolution in a timely manner and in accordance and conjunction with the policies of most financial institutions, then you're useless and need to get the heck out of business.
Personally, I like the PayPal service for it's convenience, but after the run-around and shakiness I've now personally experienced, I'm starting to take a long, solid look at the alternatives.
The credit card limits are not in place as a fraud measure at all. I'm smarter than that!
If this transaction had been made from a credit card, PayPal would be stuck with the $530 loss instead of me! And to top that off, for exercising my right to chargeback a fraudulent transaction, PayPal would have cancelled my account for violating its policies... Am I right?
I was more than happy to accomodate PayPal by using my bank account for larger transactions so they didn't have the credit card fees associated with the other method. And to show their appreciation... PayPal affords me no protection from fraudulent sellers at all!
Maybe my Better Business Bureau complaint will reach someone at PayPal that cares. It's a shame that a company with such potential has fallen to this level. Most companies that demonstrate such poor customer service and shirk their responsibilities like this have their days numbered... Is this the case with PayPal?
The credit card limits are not in place as a fraud measure at all. I'm smarter than that!
(Limits are in place to prevent someone from using a credit card fraudulently or to limit the amount of damage they can do)
If this transaction had been made from a credit card, PayPal would be stuck with the $530 loss instead of me! And to top that off, for exercising my right to chargeback a fraudulent transaction, PayPal would have cancelled my account for violating its policies... Am I right?
(No. The consumer still has charge back rights, but we do ask that they file a complaint first. Not doing so could lead to an account restriction or termination).
I was more than happy to accomodate PayPal by using my bank account for larger transactions so they didn't have the credit card fees associated with the other method. And to show their appreciation... PayPal affords me no protection from fraudulent sellers at all!
(I do know that we have recovered a fair amount of money from fraudulent sellers through the Buyer Protection Program. However, as the terms of use state, we do not guarantee recovery. There is actually more recourse through our system than if you had sent a check or money order)
Maybe my Better Business Bureau complaint will reach someone at PayPal that cares. It's a shame that a company with such potential has fallen to this level. Most companies that demonstrate such poor customer service and shirk their responsibilities like this have their days numbered... Is this the case with PayPal?
posted on June 9, 2001 01:06:14 PM
when it comes to buying expensive items-ANTIQUES,FINE ARTS,ELECTRONIC GOODS & JEWELRY.
RULE NUMBER ONE- KNOW YOUR DEALER.
RULE NUMBER TWO-REFER TO RULE NUMBER ONE.
There are discount outlets and auctions held by brand name pc makers such as compaq,do yourself a favor and buy from them.
i did,my dealer is COMPUSA!!
If you choose to purchase your computer equipment from CompUSA, I'm sure you expect them to follow their posted policies as well.
The issue here isn't the original seller. It is the fact that PayPal is refusing to follow their own buyer protection policies.
Paypaldamon is very good at referring to particular sentences in PayPal's terms of use, but they are often taken out of context to bend the meaning in his favor.
Section 1 of PayPal's Consumer Protection Program clearly states:
"PayPal's consumer protection programs, consisting of a Buyer Complaint Policy and a Seller Protection Policy as defined below, are designed to help buyers recover from sellers who do not ship the promised goods..."
Section 2, titled "Additional Protection for eBay Auctions," reads:
"This Additional Protection does not apply to disputes about the quality or attributes of delivered goods..."
Since my purchase was not the result of an eBay auction, paypaldamon's repeated references to "the quality or attributes of delivered goods" is not applicable.
How can I make it any more clear... In my case, the seller did not ship the promised goods and PayPal should be attempting to process a refund by any means available to them.
I have already filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and fully expect PayPal to stand by their policies as outlined in section 1 of their own Consumer Protection Policies.
Boy are you mixed up! Extortion is "a crime of obtaining money or some other thing of value by the abuse of one's office or authority." Now you are accusing me of being a criminal?
You could be quite right about my efforts to recover my refund, but it won't be because I have given up! PayPal may refuse to honor their own policies, but I know what is right and I don't plan on giving up.
Could you please explain to me in complete sentences why you don't believe the PayPal policies I quoted are applicable to my situation? I agree that PayPal's policies are as "clear as day," but we must have different understandings of the English language.
Also, could you please explain what prevents PayPal from attempting to recover my funds from this obviously fraudulent seller? Section 1 of the policy I quoted clearly states I have the right to seek recovery from sellers that do not ship the "promised goods."
Any reasonable person would interpret these policies as I have. Are you a reasonable person or a PayPal employee?
