posted on July 21, 2000 09:01:07 PM new
LOL Maui..... I look at drop dead gorgeous women and think...... um..... well......I wish my ex would fixate on one of them. Damn sure make my life easier and heck, he'd spend lots of money on her....... maybe I should try to introduce them?
Reality sets in....... it would be cruel to the drop dead gorgeous one. Kelly
posted on July 21, 2000 09:03:07 PM new
Something like that Maui.
K-cat, I am in the majority of men and will look, no I don't care if it bothers the woman, because that woman is in the minority.
If the woman feels something other than pride, maybe therapy is in order?
Of course I think all women have some beauty to them...
posted on July 21, 2000 09:04:31 PM new
Youre right spaz....what you said makes sense. We all emphasize what we, the emphasizers, think we need to emphasize to get admiring looks for OURSELVES. Sounds discombobulated, but that about sums it up.
posted on July 21, 2000 09:06:35 PM new
Spaz, I think your idea is about 1/4 right... I have female friends that do wear those clothes, just to drive men crazy and if they don't get enough attention when out... watch them rant and rave the next day about no men... LOL
posted on July 21, 2000 09:08:15 PM new
What maui.... hey, gotta believe there is something mentally wrong if a woman feels persecuted just for a look... must be some phobia for that...
Please don't make excuses for what twelvepole "meant" as he tries desperately to rehabilitate the image of himself that he established early on in this thread. Anyone who equates manhood with testicles, anyone who responds to criticism of his self-serving attitudes towards women with comments like "when did you get castrated?" has some serious problems when it comes to respecting other people as people rather than as sexual objects -- which was the original theme of this thread.
posted on July 21, 2000 09:11:14 PM new
In truth......ALL women and ALL men have something special to attract. When I dated (all those long years ago) My attraction was never based on money, looks, or what kind of car they drove.
It was based on a laugh, a cetain tilt to the head when talking, it was based on how the person I was with made me feel. In fact, if you ask a man why he is with any woman, his answer would be round about......till you got to the meat of it...... and then the answer is she makes ME feel good. Not..... she is gorgeous, she is rich....... on and on
The answer is your partner makes you feel good. Period Kelly
posted on July 21, 2000 09:13:22 PM new
I will leave you guys to hash it out...I have a canasta game to play with company. These were just my opinions I expressed...and trying to understand where others are coming from.
posted on July 21, 2000 09:17:09 PM new
And....... If your partner not only doesnt make you feel good anymore, but instead is hurting you, belittling you, castrating you, making you the butt of jokes, dehumanizing you...........
Its time to let it go, or run for your life, whichever the case may be........ because they are not the ONLY one who will ever love you.
There IS love for everyone and it does not have to hurt. Kelly
Somebody stated something derrogotory about being castrated. That one really bothers me because the first thought which came into my head was the concentration camps. A man is a man no matter what he has or doesn't have. The only difference I can see is whether he is a gentleman or Mr. Macho just as a woman who has lost a breast is still a woman with her own singular personality.
Kelly,
I think you hit on it in a nutshell in answer to twelvepole. All anyone wants is to be loved and there are women and men out there who think love can be had in the way they dress. They have been brainwashed as Spaz said earlier by the media into thinking that that is the only way to find love.
Maui,
There's nothing wrong with looking nice. I agree with you but let me give you an example of what an ogler can turn into.
I had a gig in Springfield IL. to portray Mary Todd Lincoln at a food vendor convention several years back. I was to walk around and make conversation with customers and vendors. There was one vendor who was a ogler but as I kept making my passes he tried to get friendlier and friendlier finally he started making some very uncomfortable comments. It just kept rolling and rolling until I refused to go down his aisle.
I don't think it makes any difference in what you look like (wouldn't call MTL attractive) there are some men who get off on having a woman in his grasp and taunting them. I think it gives them a feeling of power that they evidently don't have in other parts of their poor pitiful lives.
Twelvepole,
What is wrong with NOW? Humph!
Oh, we sat at the fair again tonight and the Queen was nowhere in sight. I'm wondering if one of the other parents protested or something. They usually are highly visible. I didn't get to gag tonight, durn it.
posted on July 22, 2000 06:53:26 AM new
"you can look but you can't touch"
you know, part of this discussion reminded me of the women who/whom? have been attacked in public at the fair (concert? parade?)in the park on a hot day couple of months ago.
the police were contacted but they:
looked the other way
continued to direct the traffic
looked at the victim as if "what are you complaining about?"
just shrugged
or tried to help but got orders to stay out of it or couldn't get through.
I don't know how many women sued the city
I thought long and hard about how it got started.....
posted on July 22, 2000 10:29:04 AM new
Yawwwwwwn, good morning all... this thread still going? lol
Mornin calamity
Toomany good point about the women in the park, and I believe spaz also hit on that issue earlier last night. That whole scene makes me sick. At the very very very least the first policeman contacted should have radio'd into dispatch to make them aware of the complaint. Then whether he chose to ignore the problem from there on out or not, at least there would be notification. If every cop contacted had done that, don't you think there would be somebody in dispatch would eventualy have been looking at the huge number of complaints and realized that there was a problem?
Again, it is socially acceptable for women to be pestered by men. A woman walks down the street... she could be dressed like I dress, in a long caftan with no desire other than to get a loaf of bread from the market on the corner... if she receives catcalls and wolfwhistles and stares and sexual comments and "Hey baby youre looking fiiiiine", etc etc etc... that is perfectly acceptable and I don't see how in the world a man cannot possibly conceive of the notion that those actions might bother a woman! Furthermore if they know it is bothering her and continue, they also see nothing wrong with that. What the h@ll, people!
Just my morning 2 cents... now I have to get some work done... later peeps...
posted on July 22, 2000 11:34:35 AM new
The one memory, or truth (as he would call it,)that has stuck in my subconscious my entire life is my father's insistance that men only "love with their eyes." Did it help me stive to perfect and enhance my physical appearance? Not in the least! It had the opposite effect on both my personality and my physical appearance. I cared little for the resulting efforts of decorating my face or maintaining the perfect body. Instead his words have caused a life time of internal rebellion, misery & lack of self confidence in what my intelligence could achieve for myself. This resulted in a negative opinion of women who, in my mind, market their beauty, and it formed an assumption that women prostitute their bodies in trade for the perfect husband, perfect home and a handful of cash from her husband's successes in his career. It is a subtle trade off, as the hubby carries his wife's beauty as he would a trophy to show the world that he is better than men who have ordinary spouses. And what happens when that husband's success takes a turn for the worse, or if the wife is not gaining the monetary value and prestige for her worth? She will, and most often does, trade up when someone else has more to offer.
It took forever for me to find a mate that approached our relationship and marriage as a corporation - or partnership, based on love and respect for each others internal attributes. It is only with his acceptance of me as a whole that I have been able to overcome the lack of self confidence my father instilled in my mind. It has only been with his unending support that I have achieved my goals as a woman and have been able to come to terms with my appearance to the point that I then began to work on my external beauty not for society's approval, but for his eyes.
Now don't blast me for my negative thoughts on women. It is not intended for the physically beautiful women who do not use it to their personal advantage, or those who strive to be accepted as a person and not their appearance. It is only for those who flaunt the physical and reap the awards without any thought to their own self-demoralization. The nature of this type of woman disgusts me.
posted on July 22, 2000 01:26:16 PM new
Ktsclutter: That's a lot of anger you are carrying inside you towards strangers who have done you no personal harm. Why do I think that there is more to your story?
posted on July 22, 2000 01:47:30 PM new
kts, I agree... those that love to strut and flaunt and giggle at whatever a man says and go through the Stepford routine and spend oodles making themselves look beautiful because they think that they are nothing without beauty (And in many mens' eyes they are sadly correct) and live their lives in a superficial bliss in the shadows of a man... those women make me ill.
The woman that steps out and dares to be herself (OMG!) and utilize her brains and not care one way or tuther if the world thinks she is a beauty queen and scoffs at the chauvinists because she knows they are feeble (Yes, I said it again... chauvinist = feeble because anyone who thinks less of another human simply because of their sex also doesn't realize how ridiculous that notion is.)... that woman is the one I applaud.
posted on July 22, 2000 02:05:34 PM new
I don't define my sense of self worth according to how others (particularly those with shallow ideals) perceive me.
posted on July 22, 2000 02:35:31 PM newthose that love to strut and flaunt and giggle at whatever a man says and go through the Stepford routine and spend oodles making themselves look beautiful because they think that they are nothing without beauty (And in many mens' eyes they are sadly correct) and live their lives in a superficial bliss in the shadows of a man... those women make me ill.
In the sentence that follows the condemnation above, kihei, you laud women who "dare to be themselves." But I contend that the very women you express contempt for are being themselves. As I said in an earlier post, every woman makes different selections from the cosmic "chinese menu" of desirability. You made your choices, the giggling flaunters made theirs. You just made different choices, that's all. Certainly there are reasons why women make the choices they do -- upbringing, social class and values, level of education, ethnic background, etc. In many instances these factors are beyond the control of the individual -- they are the result of fate. I don't think it's fair to condemn the giggling flaunters for who they are. For all you know, they are merely being true to themselves in the sense that what you're seeing is what they learned and what they chose, just as you have learned not to wear makeup or chosen to wear caftans, etc. You may not agree with what choices they have made, but those choices are just as valid as yours.
As for "daring to be themselves," I might add that based on the outfits I've seen some of them wearing, those women are quite "daring" in their own right.
I have to agree with you. When women like Kcat described appear before me, yes, I do do my gagging routine but when I stop and think about it I realize that they have been taken in by the media or society and either don't have the ability to think for themselves or have been conditioned since birth to have little respect for themselves. Sometimes I have to concentrate to feel pity for them but if you really stop and think you can find something.
It still doesn't excuse the catcalls and other derrogatory remarks men make at a woman walking by minding her own business. I'll take it a little farther than Kcat. Suppose a woman who is heavy walks by, men have been known to make remarks about her weight and on and on, disfigurments, color, etc. They have no right.
Afternoon,Kcat I think there are many other woman subjects you and I could get into but it might be a little much for some, don't you think? "I am Woman. Hear me Roar."
posted on July 22, 2000 03:33:46 PM new
How about a different view...what about a group of women who are having coffee on a sidewalk cafe and a guy walks by in plaid shorts, very white legs, coke-bottle glasses, inks pens in his striped shirt, hair poking out of the top of his head in disarray? No snickers, eh? Or what about the dude with no shirt, buffed, tan, long hair, and tight jeans? They dont ogle? Everything isnt black and white...there is lots of gray.
edited to add this thought: What if there was a thread about a beautiful singer? And all the guy posters were WOOWHOO'ing in that thread talking about the attributes of the woman? Is it any different than what WE did with the Sean Connery thread? Would Sean not like being the object of a thread in a chat room?
