posted on November 15, 2004 03:33:36 PM new
Newest figures show over 2000 "insurgents" KIA. So with only 31 US KIA, that makes a kill ratio of 65.5 to 1. Better than vise versa.
Americans again prove Pres Bush is the best man for the job
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The person who has nothing for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
posted on November 15, 2004 03:49:11 PM new
Fred, you make a very good point there. It doesnt sound likely, but who knows? I would think bloody boots would be rather disturbing to the vets or all the patients there...but maybe they make the exception for this guy, or nobody cares what the helz is going on there?
Helen, you always state [in one way or another], that the right is being lead blindly by this administration, but then you said you did not analyze the article? Seems to me if you'd like to consider yourself an intellectual, you'd also apply some discernment to articles you read instead of taking everything printed as some core truth because it was published.
posted on November 15, 2004 05:15:11 PM new
Neroter, I never said that I would like to consider myself an intellectual (how funny) or that I failed to read or analyze this article carefully. Whenever I post a link to an article I always select it from a reliable newspaper and read it carefully before I post it here. I considered this article especially interesting since we are usually focused on dead and wounded and forget the awful mental problems that war entails. The fact that it received so much negative attention from one verbose chickenshit was strange and simply represented a play for attention in my opinion.
When I was in school, I worked on the school newspaper both in high school and college...and took a few classes in journalism so I'm aware that this was not a straight news story. I know how to look for facts and bias too. This article is what we used to call a human interest story...and such stories may include the examples used in this story such as the fellow wearing the bloody boots of his friend who bled to death. That packed some emotional power and was probably used exactly for that purpose. The soldier may be wearing his dead friend's boots or he may be under a delusion that he is wearing those boots. In either case, it illustrates one soldier's terrible reality.
posted on November 15, 2004 06:56:17 PM new
neroter - Helen will never see her own 'sources' bias...she has stated she doesn't believe the NYT is left leaning.
And I believe her reply is making a distinction between [knowing/believing] herself to be an intellectual
....as opposed to the way you worded it as 'you'd like to *consider* yourself'. -----------
And helen...you should be ashamed of yourself....calling a new poster chickensh1t and putting him down like you did. He's making great points. Are you afraid you can't debate him without lowering yourself, once again, to resorting to name calling? I haven't seen him be rude to you at all....and you immediately go into 'attack' mode. shame on you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Four More Years....YES!!!
[ edited by Linda_K on Nov 15, 2004 06:58 PM ]
posted on November 15, 2004 07:00:34 PM new
Helen, I guess I misinterpreted your comment to classic about sparring with the best of em (intellectuals.) And yes, I understand about it being a human interest or feature story vs. a bona-fide factual news story. (btw, did the actual story say the guy was walking in his friends bloody boots or he was imagining he is?) Sounds to me your take is either way, it drives home the attention to the plight - which it does and that is a good thing. But to me, its fictionalizing a real scene to make it much more dramatic. (To think and visualize this guy walking around in bloody boots.) IMHO, that is somewhat manipulative of the writer and of the truth, whether its a light feature or a factual news story. I guess my point here is how do we know when do they blur the line with news stories too, then?
posted on November 15, 2004 07:06:38 PM new
Linda, I will say, many over dramatize on this board...lol! But its like lawyers who twist the truth. They just wanna win the arguement!
I thought pandorabox comments were extremely logical and intelligent though maybe a little high-brow on the vocabulary...as I said I found it a refreshing change of pace and I hope he is not discouraged by Helen's comments.
After all, haha from the sixties; everybody must get s-t-o-n-e-d,.........
posted on November 15, 2004 11:47:53 PM new
"Son, in politics you've got to learn that overnight chicken #*!@ can turn to chicken salad"
~LBJ
Bon Appιtit, Helen.
To everyone else, good points re the article..
"Drop, drop in our sleep, upon the heart sorrow falls, memory's pain, and to us, though against our very will, even in our own despite, comes wisdom by the awful grace of God"
~Aeschylus
posted on November 16, 2004 05:48:03 AM newneroter - Helen will never see her own 'sources' bias...she has stated she doesn't believe the NYT is left leaning.
Linda, I just want to give you my opinion on this. Although I'd say the NYT's may produce what appears to you as left-leaning (and they may, I dont necessarily deny it when you're reading from another pov) BUT..I think they've worked hard to establish themselves as a credible news source.
now I have to get to work or my arse is gonna be in a sling come later today..
posted on November 16, 2004 07:48:53 AM new
"But to me, its fictionalizing a real scene to make it much more dramatic. (To think and visualize this guy walking around in bloody boots.) IMHO, that is somewhat manipulative of the writer and of the truth, whether its a light feature or a factual news story."
The New York Times
The Washington Post
Dan Rather
They ALL do this..
in my VERY humble opinion all three are
democratic,leftist,commie,cum guzzling bastards....did I leave anything out?????
posted on November 16, 2004 11:08:37 AM new
I'll post the story in full so that everyone can read it. I don't know why anyone would want to discount the fact that mental illness is a problem for soldiers fighting a guerilla war in Iraq. ...probably the same people who don't want to see the number of wounded or flag draped coffins returning from Iraq.
THE CONFLICT IN IRAQ
These Unseen Wounds Cut Deep
A mental health crisis is emerging, with one in six returning soldiers afflicted, experts say.
By Esther Schrader, Times Staff Writer
WASHINGTON Matt LaBranche got the tattoos at a seedy place down the street from the Army hospital here where he was a patient in the psychiatric ward.
The pain of the needle felt good to the 40-year-old former Army sergeant, whose memories of his nine months as a machine-gunner in Iraq had left him, he said, "feeling dead inside." LaBranche's back is now covered in images, the largest the dark outline of a sword. Drawn from his neck to the small of his back, it is emblazoned with the words LaBranche says encapsulate the war's effect on him: "I've come to bring you hell."
In soldiers like LaBranche their bodies whole but their psyches deeply wounded a crisis is unfolding, mental health experts say. One out of six soldiers returning from Iraq is suffering the effects of post-traumatic stress and as more come home, that number is widely expected to grow.
The Pentagon, which did not anticipate the extent of the problem, is scrambling to find resources to address it.
A study by the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research found that 15.6% of Marines and 17.1% of soldiers surveyed after they returned from Iraq suffered major depression, generalized anxiety or post-traumatic stress disorder a debilitating, sometimes lifelong change in the brain's chemistry that can include flashbacks, sleep disorders, panic attacks, violent outbursts, acute anxiety and emotional numbness
Army and Veterans Administration mental health experts say there is reason to believe the war's ultimate psychological fallout will worsen. The Army survey of 6,200 soldiers and Marines included only troops willing to report their problems. The study did not look at reservists, who tend to suffer a higher rate of psychological injury than career Marines and soldiers. And the soldiers in the study served in the early months of the war, when tours were shorter and before the Iraqi insurgency took shape.
"The bad news is that the study underestimated the prevalence of what we are going to see down the road," said Dr. Matthew J. Friedman, a professor of psychiatry and pharmacology at Dartmouth Medical School who is executive director of the VA's National Center for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
Since the study was completed, Friedman said: "The complexion of the war has changed into a grueling counterinsurgency. And that may be very important in terms of the potential toxicity of this combat experience."
Mental health professionals say they fear the system is not moving fast enough to treat the trauma. They say slowness to recognize what was happening to Vietnam veterans contributed to the psychological devastation from that war.
More than 30% of Vietnam veterans eventually suffered from the condition that more than a decade later was given the name post-traumatic stress disorder. But since their distress was not clinically understood until long after the war ended, most went for years without meaningful treatment.
"When we missed the boat with the Vietnam vets, we didn't get another chance," said Jerry Clark, director of the veterans clinic in Alexandria, Va. "When they left the service, they went away not for a month or two but for 10 years. And they came back addicted, incarcerated and all these things. We can't miss the boat again. It is imperative."
Experts on post-traumatic stress disorder say it should come as no surprise that some of the soldiers in Iraq are fighting mental illness.
Combat stress disorders named and renamed but strikingly alike have ruined lives following every war in history. Homer's Achilles may have suffered from some form of it. Combat stress was documented in the late 19th century after the Franco-Prussian War. After the Civil War, doctors called the condition "nostalgia," or "soldiers heart." In World War I, soldiers were said to suffer shell shock; in World War II and Korea, combat fatigue or battle fatigue.
But it wasn't until 1985 that the American Psychiatric Assn. finally gave a name to the condition that had sent tens of thousands of Vietnam veterans into lives of homelessness, crime or despair.
A war like the one in Iraq in which a child is as likely to die as a soldier and unseen enemies detonate bombs presents ideal conditions for its rise.
Yet the Army initially sent far too few psychiatrists, psychologists and social workers to combat areas, an Army study released in the summer of 2003 found. Until this year, Congress had allocated no new funds to deal with the mental health effects of the war in Iraq. And when it did earmark money, the sum was minimal: $5 million in each of the next three years.
"We're gearing ourselves up now and preparing ourselves to meet whatever the need is, but clearly this is something that could not be planned for," said Dr. Alfonso Batres, a psychologist who heads the VA's national office of readjustment counseling services.
Last year, 1,100 troops who had fought in Iraq or Afghanistan came to VA clinics seeking help for symptoms of depression or post-traumatic stress; this year, the number grew tenfold. In all, 23% of Iraq veterans treated at VA facilities have been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder.
"And this is first-year data," Batres said. "Our experience is that over time that will increase."
In the red brick buildings of Walter Reed Army Medical Center, the "psych patients," as they are known, mingle, sometimes uncomfortably, with those who have lost limbs and organs.
One soldier being treated at Walter Reed, who spoke on condition of anonymity, walks the hospital campus in the bloodied combat boots of a friend he watched bleed to death.
Another Iraq veteran in treatment at Walter Reed, Army 1st Lt. Jullian Philip Goodrum, drives most mornings to nearby Silver Spring, Md., seeking the solitude of movies and the solace of friends.
He leaves early to avoid traffic the crush of cars makes him jumpy. On more than one occasion, he has imagined snipers with their sights on him in the streets. Diesel fumes cause flashbacks. He keeps a vial of medication in his pocket and pops a pill when he gets nervous.
"You question outside of dealing with your psych injury, which will affect you from one degree or another throughout your life you also question yourself," Goodrum said. "I trained. I was an excellent soldier, a strong character. How could my mind dysfunction?"
When it began to become clear that what the Pentagon initially believed would be a rapid, clear-cut war had transmuted into a drawn-out counterinsurgency, the Army began pushing to reach and treat distressed soldiers sooner.
The number of mental health professionals deployed near frontline positions in Iraq has been increased. Suicide prevention programs are given to soldiers in the field. According to the Pentagon, 31 U.S. troops have killed themselves in Iraq.
At more than 200 storefront clinics known as Vet Centers created in 1979 to reach out to Vietnam veterans the VA has increased the number of group therapy sessions and staff. Three months ago, the VA hired 50 Iraq war veterans to help serve as advocates at the clinics.
Officials acknowledge that is only a start. The Government Accountability Office found in a study released in September that the VA lacked the information it needed to determine whether it could meet an increased demand for services.
"Predicting which veterans will seek VA care and at which facilities is inherently uncertain," the report concluded, "particularly given that the symptoms of PTSD may not appear for years."
The Army and the VA are also trying to catalog and research the mental health effects of this war better than they have in the past. In addition to the Walter Reed study, several more are tracking soldiers from before their deployment to Iraq through their combat experiences and into the future.
If Iraq veterans can be helped sooner, they may fare better than those who fought in Vietnam, mental health experts say. And they note that the nation, although divided on the Iraq war, is more united in caring for the needs of returning soldiers than it was in the Vietnam era. And in the last decade, new techniques have proved effective in treating stress disorders, among them cognitive-behavioral therapy and drugs like Zoloft and Paxil.
Whether people like Matt LaBranche seek and receive treatment will determine how deep an effect the stress of the war in Iraq ultimately has on U.S. society.
Before the war, LaBranche was living in Saco, Maine, with his wife and children and had no history of mental illness.
He deployed to Iraq with a National Guard transportation company based in Bangor. He came home a different person.
Just three days after he was discharged from Walter Reed, he was arrested for threatening his former wife. When he goes to court Dec. 9, he could be looking at jail time.
He lies on a couch at his brother's house most days now, struggling with the image of the Iraqi woman who died in his arms after he shot her, and the children he says caught some of his bullets. His speech is pocked with obscenities.
On a recent outing with friends, he became so enraged when he saw a Muslim family that he had to take medication to calm down.
He is seeing a therapist, but only once every two weeks.
"I'm taking enough drugs to sedate an elephant, and I still wake up dreaming about it," LaBranche said. "I wish I had just freaking died over there."
posted on November 16, 2004 11:32:52 AM new
neroter - I can respect that you see the NYT differently than I do....but it IS the most liberal newspaper in America, that's not just an opinion. I'd be interested in hearing which mainstream paper [American only please ] you believe is more left leaning than the NYT though.
And both the NYT and the Washington Post have changed from putting their editorials in the Editorial or Op-Ed sections to making almost all their articles op-ed pieces. Their bias and support for kerry was undeniable, as were most of the media papers imo.
-----------------
helen - War is hell...there's no denying that. But peace at any cost is no better. Thank God we have brave men and women who are willing to fight for this country.
And remember we have democrats who are seeking help from therapists who haven't even seen combat....they just can't mentally deal with the fact that President Bush was re-elected. They can't sleep, they're all stressed out, have nightmares, etc. While others surely didn't like it but it didn't cause MENTAL problems with them. Just goes to show that some can handle stress, pressure, hardship better than others...whether they're in the Armed Forces or the general public.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on November 16, 2004 11:47:43 AM new
"And remember we have democrats who are seeking help from therapists who haven't even seen combat....they just can't mentally deal with the fact that President Bush was re-elected. They can't sleep, they're all stressed out, have nightmares, etc"
Pany ass's--you democrats acting like a little kid who dropped his ice cream cone,or the bully on the block just took your lunch money.We had to put up with the maggot clinton for 8 years...whats the matter, now that you didnt win again you're going to pick up your marbles and go home?-get over it
[ edited by classicrock000 on Nov 16, 2004 11:55 AM ]
This one lists the NYT, WashPost and the Chicago Tribune as the most liberal news media.
Then of course we have over 90% of our college professors who are liberals teaching our children.
And not to long ago ol' Walter Conkrite admitted that the majority of newscasters are liberals. And we clearly saw they're constant bias during this election...and past ones too.
I'll add another link that speaks to liberal bias in the news too.
posted on November 16, 2004 12:02:18 PM new
Linda, I really dont know. I'll have to look into it and get back to this post. (Have never really thought about it! But on the whole, newspapers or media outlets do not 'make' the news, they report what it is. If they were that successful or powerful in the slanting, and a majority of the media is liberal biased as you say, Kerry would have won the election - or at least did way better - don't you think?
posted on November 16, 2004 01:20:41 PM new
I find it kind of ironic that the Chicago Tribune was listed a liberal newspaper. If you actually lived in Chicago you would find the Tribune is more conservative and favors the Republicans. The Chicago Sun-Times is more liberal.
Q. What's the difference between the Vietnam War and the Iraq War?
A. George W. Bush had a plan to get out of the Vietnam War.
--------------------------------------
There's an old saying in Tennessee I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee that says, fool me once, shame on shame on you. Fool me you can't get fooled again." George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
posted on November 16, 2004 01:53:26 PM new
I have to disagree with bear. A kill ratio of 65.5 to 1 is not good enough. We need to attain a ratio of about 250 to 1. Our soldiers are trained professionals, these 'insurgents' are thugs comparable to 'looters in the mist'. We cannot allow an exchange rate like this, better to just drop a bunker-buster on their mud huts.
Too harsh? Tooooooo bad.
OK, some levity.
Q. How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?
A. Only one, but it takes a loooong time and the light bulb has got to want to change.
__________
The Democrats were rejected by a majority of Americans
posted on November 16, 2004 02:18:48 PM newThen there's those who think the US soldiers have done a super job of taking over the city in very short order, like me. Only a few pockets of Iraqi fighters remain. The coaliation will now have control of a city where the worst of the worst hid out and built arms to use against the whole coaliation.
Could this be why American troops took the city in very short order?
WASHINGTON - Fallujah has been the heart of the Iraqi insurgency but won't be its last stand, defense officials and experts say.
U.S.-led forces have moved through the one-time insurgent stronghold more quickly than expected, leading some military officials and outside analysts to suspect many anti-American fighters fled the city ahead of the U.S. advance.
That would mean any hopes for a Fallujah showdown that would cripple the Iraqi insurgency appear increasingly unlikely. It also suggests thousands of insurgents - including top leaders like Abu Musab al-Zarqawi - may have dispersed to continue a bloody guerrilla campaign that so far has kept U.S. forces from stabilizing the war-battered nation.
"A smart insurgent does not want to fight because he's going to get killed," said Marine Col. Thomas X. Hammes, an expert on insurgencies at the National Defense University in Virginia. "I think we're killing a significant number there ... but if you had a Marine battalion [coming], you wouldn't stay. You'd get the hell out."
In addition, a wave of attacks outside Fallujah that have killed dozens of Iraqis, as well as yesterday's kidnapping of three relatives of Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi, showed the insurgency is still active.
Senior Pentagon officials dispute the notion that the battle for Fallujah has inflicted little cost to the insurgency, with one saying preliminary estimates are that several hundred insurgent fighters have been killed so far - out of an insurgency originally believed to number 2,000 to 3,000 across the city. At least 10 U.S. soldiers have died in the offensive.
These officials also acknowledge that U.S. forces expect more fighting with insurgents in the weeks ahead.
"Nobody ever thought all the insurgents were in Fallujah," said one senior Pentagon official who emphasized that the goal in Fallujah was mainly to restore Iraqi government control to the city ahead of January elections. "No more safe haven for insurgents - that's the key."
Still, Fallujah has come to occupy a central place in U.S. counter-insurgency strategy in Iraq as well as to become a rallying cry and symbol for anti-American fighters, especially after Marines were forced to withdraw from the city in April under U.S. and Iraqi government pressure.
Marines had laid siege to the city for three weeks to quell the insurgency but pulled out after U.S. and Iraqi government officials feared civilian casualties could inflame Iraqi and Arab public opinion.
U.S. military officials yesterday said they believed as much as 70 percent of the city is now under U.S. and Iraqi control. The top U.S. commander in Iraq, Gen. George Casey, said that things "are going well in Fallujah," President George W. Bush said yesterday.
The insurgency has been reduced to "small pockets, blind, moving throughout the city," said Lt. Gen. John Sattler, commander of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force. He also said he was confident none had escaped from the city once the battle began.
But the U.S.-led forces didn't establish a tight cordon around Fallujah until Sunday night and had telegraphed their intent to take Fallujah for several weeks, leading some experts to believe insurgents simply filtered out over time.
"It's pretty clear that the insurgency has moved on," said Charles Pena, a military analyst for the conservative Cato Institute in Washington, D.C. "We're chasing this problem and the problem will keep moving."
--------------------------------------------
NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq -- The rapid U.S. push into Fallujah has come without the sort of fateful showdown that would break the back of the insurgency. In fact, advance U.S. and Iraqi government warnings gave the militants plenty of time to get out of town, and it appears many did just that.
Military reports say small bands of guerrillas, with no more than 15 members each, fled the city in the weeks before the U.S.-led onslaught -- which was widely telegraphed by public statements and news reports.
"That's probably why we've been able to move as fast as we have," one officer in the Army's 1st Cavalry Division said Wednesday.
Insurgencies typically succeed by avoiding face-to-face battles with stronger military forces and by staging attacks where armies are weakest. The guerrillas who fled Fallujah may simply be repositioning themselves to fight elsewhere, said the officer, who agreed to discuss the Fallujah situation only if not quoted by name. Under embed rules, military officers have the option of refusing to be identified in news reports for security reasons.
The development may mean the world's most powerful army is chasing a smaller band of insurgents than previously thought. Before the assault, the 1st Cavalry estimated 1,200 guerrillas were holed up in Fallujah, with as many as 2,000 more in nearby towns and villages. It was unclear how many were left inside or had been killed.
U.S. military leaders, including Marine Maj. Gen. Richard Natonski, commander of the Fallujah operation, and interim Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi gave plenty of warnings that the assault was imminent, in part to encourage civilians to leave. Authorities also didn't hide the movement of U.S. reinforcements from elsewhere in Iraq to take up positions around the city.
"We gave them so much fair warning that the only ones who stayed had a death wish," the 1st Cavalry officer said.
There were unconfirmed reports that two top insurgent leaders, Sheik Abdullah al-Janabi and Omar Hadid, had been killed. But the officer said prominent insurgent leaders and fighters were thought to have fled the city, leaving behind defenders willing to fight to the death with a force of 15,000 American soldiers and Marines and Iraqi troops.
There was no word on the whereabouts of Jordanian terror mastermind Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the al-Qaida-linked extremist believed behind a wave of car bombings and beheadings of foreigners across Iraq and thought to be using Fallujah as a base. Lt. Gen. Thomas Metz, commander of the multinational force in Iraq, said Tuesday he believed al-Zarqawi had left the city.
U.S. commanders built up a big attacking force to prevent a repeat of April's failed siege of Fallujah by 2,000 Marines, when insurgents were able to leave the city to mount attacks on U.S. bases outside the city and also resupply themselves with manpower and weapons.
This time, planners brought in the 1st Cavalry's 2nd Brigade, which blocked bridges and choked off routes into and out of the city seeking to trap fighters inside, but only a few days before the offensive began Monday.
There is little conclusive evidence that guerrillas who fled Fallujah are behind a surge in attacks on U.S. forces and supply convoys elsewhere, the 1st Cavalry officer said. Islamist Web sites have been full of calls on militants across Iraq to attack U.S. facilities in retaliation for the assault on a city that had become the symbol of Iraqi resistance.
U.S. troops have advanced relentlessly from Fallujah's north side, fighting through two of the three rings of insurgent defenses. The fighters, mainly local Sunni Muslims with a few foreigners among them, were reported bottled up in Fallujah's sparse southern neighborhoods Wednesday.
It isn't clear how many foreign fighters were among the insurgents in Fallujah. Before the attack, U.S. military officials estimated foreigners comprised about 20 percent of a militant force in the low thousands, while Iraqi government officials insisted the percentage was much higher.
Fallujah's defenses have crumbled faster than U.S. analysts expected, with resistance lighter than expected. Intelligence indicated fighters' defenses in disarray, and command networks broken down, with bands of three to five guerrillas fighting for self-preservation rather than as part of a larger, coordinated force.
Some militants have surrendered. At a prison camp at the main U.S. base outside Fallujah, troops dropped off more than a dozen men and boys, appearing to range in age from around 12 to around 50. Most were wearing traditional Arab dishdasha robes, including the black robes the U.S. military says is characteristic of the insurgents.
Q. What's the difference between the Vietnam War and the Iraq War?
A. George W. Bush had a plan to get out of the Vietnam War.
--------------------------------------
There's an old saying in Tennessee I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee that says, fool me once, shame on shame on you. Fool me you can't get fooled again." George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
---------------------------------- "Give it up for George W. Bush, the best friend international jihad ever had."
] you believe is more left leaning than the NYT though.