posted on September 2, 2000 11:43:59 AM
After reading Networker67's posts over the last few days it seems like there is some history between posters that some of us are missing. I find his posts interesting, intelligent and well articulated. The fact that he has been Naru'd doesn't in and of itself invalidate his points.
On this topic, sellers and buyers who have been burned in their auction dealings have adjusted their practices to account for the worst case scenario, continually adding layer upon layer as each situation arises. This can affect everyone in one way of another eventually. Who will blink first, the sellers or the buyers?
I had to answer an email from a prospective bidder with questions on a doll's canopy bed. Among other questions, I was asked whether the canopy material contained "ANY wrinkles whatsoever". This is a doll's bed for crying out loud, no, I don't regularly iron the material and I'll have to fold it to mail it so it will no doubt arrive with wrinkles in it. I wondered what experience this buyer must have had to feel the need to ask questions on this level of minutia.
posted on September 2, 2000 12:06:30 PM
Enough already. Why can't buyers and sellers blow off a little steam once in a while. Who can be more sympathic to your plight than another person who's been there. Does my husband want to hear it - NO! Does my son want to hear it - NO! No one knows the heart break of a seller who got stiffed. Of course I rather be the seller instead of the buyer who got the short end of the stick. "DO NOT FESTER. TO FESTER IS BAD"! (I got that from one of my suppliers)
Generally speaking shipping is the LEAST of a bidders problem.
Many Many sellers will sell to bidders other than the winner. So you win something for say $40, the secondary bidder who was outbid bid $30 and the bidder before him bid $20. Many sellers will sell to all three. We wont, but from what we hear from bidders most others do. The loosers will email us and say "can I buy it at my bid price, other sellers always let me". So hear you paid $40 as you were bidding to win yet someone else got it for $30 and $20 respective. So the extra $1 or $2 etc. in shipping should be the LEAST of a bidders concerns considering they may have just paid twice, three times, ten times what the exact same item was sold to a loosing bidder for ESPECIALLY considering you paid more to outbid them!!!! Sounds fraudulent doesnt it? Yet it happens constantly. We've had bidders RAGE on us because we WONT do it.
Then there are the issues of multiple accounts. A bidder is to have one account yet a seller can have as many as they like. The only reason that makes sense for a seller to have multiple accounts is to distinguish product lines. For example if you sell hundreds of say DVD's, Video and Music CD's you might want to have 3 accounts 1 for each type item so bidders dont have to see hundreds of music CD's when they only want to see your video offerings. Makes sense. Yet, there are many sellers who use multiple accounts selling the EXACT same products. They put 1 up of each item and that causes you the bidder to think 1 item is in auction thus you bid higher than you would if say there were 3 you could see, whether dutch auction or three auctions w/ quantity of one. Yet, they have two, three whatall other accounts where they peddle 1 of em' here, 1 on that account etc. Sounds again like fraud doesnt it? Atop that, since they WILL do that and the ONLY really valid reason for doing it is to seperate product lines, would they also sell to the non-winners if "the price is right"... you betcha. And by using multiple accounts if they get negatives or Neutral feedbacks its not a TRUE indicator anymore of beans. If one has 40 negatives on one, 30 on another and 50 on another that 120 bad feedbacks, youd think twice about bidding but instead its spread out accross all the accounts. Example: Go see carbsoul1 account, go to the last feedback page you'll see a feedback for jjlwins there. Go look at that account. Same seller, same goods, hides the feedback, leaves feedback from account to account that are both that sellers.
THESE should be the real concerns bidders need take action on not "gee I got charged $2 too much shipping".
Signed: WhyNot!
posted on September 2, 2000 12:46:36 PM
Whynot-
A bidder can have multiple accounts. A bidder can pile up negs on one account and open another and start the process all over again. It works the same for both sides.
posted on September 2, 2000 01:28:02 PM
Well, yes of course they can. Bidders that is. They create new accounts but they are not supposed to if you will. Doesnt mean they wont, but they are not supposed to where as a seller can have as many active at one time as they choose.
Signed: WhyNot!
posted on September 2, 2000 01:35:58 PM
Transferance might be a reason why people behave the way they do, but they, and they alone, are responsible for their own behavior. If they want to vent their feelings against other sellers at my expense, they can expect to earn extra mileage points to visit NARU land. I run a business, not a therapy clinic nor do I teach remedial reading so they can understand a TOS written in plain English.
posted on September 2, 2000 01:54:34 PMwhynot: They create new accounts but they are not supposed to if you will. There is no rule/policy against a bidder having multiple accounts.
I'm quite sure that some bidders have just as many valid reasons for having multiple accounts as sellers do (for example: one ID that nobody in the family knows about, for buying presents).
If either a seller or a bidder has been NARU'd, they're not supposed to create another account.
posted on September 2, 2000 03:32:32 PM
I hate like Hades to admit it having had quite a few go arounds with networker 67 here and on QA, but he has hit the nail on the head!
Having been a long term seller who doesn't shill bid and actually charges priority insured OR LESS for a sale and takes returns readily, I was astonished as a buyer to get ripped off in the following manner(s):
Buy an *as is* lot misdescribed. 9 out of 41 items damaged, and NOT described. Seller clearly uses *as is* description to unload inferior merchandise. Case pending with LLoyd's of London. Received sexually harassing & obscene email from seller simply for making the complaint (current complaints with aol & safeharbor), seller comlains I am a scammer and have substituted goods,because I also deal in what they sold (no way not ever, never!),
By a 20.29 cent item, described OK. Seller wants 5.00 shipping. Stupid me, I thought that was insured priority. Arrives 24 days later, $1.87 postage, used box, scuzzy bubble.NO insiurance.Leave a neg, get one in return, seller says I sent rude emails & supplies cost money.Sheesh, asking where the item is, is rude? No $*it, sherlock, I didn't know people paid for used boxes and used bubble.
Buy lots of items on ebay, send payment next day. Payments have been cashier's checks or my company checks ranging up to thousands of dollars. For large amounts I always send a cashier's check to reassure the seller. Send seller email that I have received item and am happy. NO FEEDBACK!
Email seller asking for feedback. Their reply, I will bother to take the time when you (the buyer) leave feedback! *&^%$#@)((*& THEM!
Bought a lot of 12 silver spoons for $190, seller ships in a priority shirt box with one layer of paper towel. Then wants to know
why I bid so much (KISS THIS SISTER!)
As a seller I have a much greater appreciation for why people do not bid or dare to bid much for worthwhile items.
Six purchases, item totally misdecribed. Bought silver plate advertised as 800 silver. HAD TO FIGHT WITH SELLER TO GET RETURN shipping. Not one seller thought their merch was worth having appraised by a professional to assure it was what they described. We are talking 50-60 dollars of shipping each time!
Sorry Amy, I really have to disagree. You may get repeat business, I certainly do, and hell it doesn't even count in ebay's stupid scheme of things but I can count on one hand the number of good (not great ) sellers out there. They get my repeat business.
However, let me tell you, there are lots of mouth watering things to bid on on ebay, but , NO THANKS, I am SICK of crooks, losers, liars, and cheats and people with bullhockey TOS longer than my arm.
[ edited by dejavu on Sep 2, 2000 03:35 PM ]
posted on September 2, 2000 04:05:46 PM
Dejavu..what ae you disagreeing about?
You can count the good sellers on one hand? So according to you, out of the thousands of sellers on ebay, 5 or less are good (not great!). Have you had dealings with all the sellers out there? I know you haven't bought from me..how many others have you not dealt with but are condeming out of hand?
I don't know all the particulars of the transactions you are complaining about..nor do I know the seller's side of the story. But without both sides giving input it's hard to agree your disastifaction is accurate.
But I do know this..I have bought from more than 5 sellers and except for one seller who took a long time to ship and one item that arrived broken which the seller never replied to me about, all the transactions have been good. From my personal experience, I would conclude the vast majority of sellers are good. As are the vast majority of buyers.
posted on September 2, 2000 04:13:29 PM
I know two Power buyers that between them have sniped over $50,000 worth of merchandise on eBay in the past 3 years.
Between both buyers, I think they have said they've had 3 or 4 complaints of shoddy packing/shipping/merchandise. They've purchased a combine total of over 500 items, give or take.
Both are AW members as well, perhaps I'll ask them to join us?
posted on September 2, 2000 04:46:46 PM
Thanks for the invite, Red Deer. I think your total purchase count between my account and the other buyer you're referring to is probably low. I'm close to 500 all by myself.
I can really only think of two purchases, out of all of those I've made, that weren't what I hoped they would of been. As far as seller's packing, I don't think I've ever had a problem. Depression glass is something that I've purchased a lot of on eBay and I've never received a broken piece.
Shipping and handling (handling being the possible area of abuse, IMO): I think is as much a buyer's responsibility to read the listing as it is the sellers to be reasonable with their charges....But, if the seller mentions the charge in the listing, then it's ALL the buyers responsibilty to read the listing.
BTW, my eBay account is my email addy:
[email protected] for anyone that wants to verify my buyer status.
posted on September 2, 2000 04:49:34 PM
I think I've bought over 450 items from eBay. Of all those, two never arrived (because they were never sent), and one arrived broken (seller's fault). The first was from a 0-feedback seller who apparently hadn't figured out it is "work" to sell; the second was more annoying, a seller who had previously been NARU'd but created a new account to participate in a charity event - if I'd known about the first NARU, I wouldn't have bid.
The third was a seller with several hundred feedback, who stuffed a large hollow ceramic piece in a plastic bag and put it in a box (she had several marvelously inventive stories about why the refund check never arrived).
By and large, the vast majority of my dealings on eBay have been very pleasant. Haven't encountered very many people with obnoxious TOS's, either before or after the auction. The few people who say they hold checks changed their mind when I asked them to look at my feedback. Haven't encountered much in the way of gouging (I only recall one, when the auction had said we could negotiate shipping methods, then he wouldn't; he quit selling on eBay shortly thereafter.
And there have been some really outstanding transactions: the two sellers who shipped the item before they received my check, for example. The last one, I got the item before he'd received my check, in fact. And the seller who, when I mentioned my current collecting frenzy, took it upon himself to pick up items he thought I might want and offered them to me (I was so pleased with one of those that I sent him more money than he'd asked for). And the lady who had accidentally left several pairs of earrings in the box that I bought from her - she insisted that I keep a pair for my "trouble" in slipping them into an envelope to send them back.
posted on September 2, 2000 04:51:45 PM
And by the way, I don't think I'm one of the buyers that RedDeer was referring to. (I don't snipe, for one thing.)
posted on September 2, 2000 05:12:13 PMRed Deer, you can up that $$$ total, too.
I should add that I've purchased items in several different categories and do have a second account that I use for purchasing gifts that I don't want detected.
eBay to me is like any other multi-vendor market place. Buyers have to pay attention, read the listings of each individual item and ask questions.....I do often feel that my actual buying experience doesn't at all reflect what I read on the chat boards as far as problems for buyers....I just haven't had many to speak of, and only one where I felt the seller was intentionally deceiving me.
And if people would stop complaining about sniping, I probably wouldn't have anything at all to discuss on the boards.
posted on September 2, 2000 05:22:17 PM
It's so nice to hear the other side of the coin...especially since I think that side of the coin pops up much more often than the bad side does!
[ edited by amy on Sep 2, 2000 05:23 PM ]
posted on September 2, 2000 06:13:39 PM
Red Deer______I try to keep the total $$$$$ secret for security reasons, but I have purchased over 300 items since I started and am into the 6 digit $$$ figues.
All items were as described. Sometimes I had to ask a couple of questions to determine the condition of VERY specific parts of these radios, but all buyers were very helpful in describing all defects.
Of all these items, I received only two that were damaged and both times it was from shipping. One was bad packing of a couple of deco glass lamps. Very cooperative seller and the post office ate those.
The other was from an overly packed radio that probably was squeezed into cracking because of the packing!
That is out of the entire bunch. And remember, it is not all from radio sellers. Many are sellers that happen to have a radio or two. Other items have been VERY fragile Pixieware pieces, other deco glass lamps, and Heisey pieces.
posted on September 2, 2000 06:20:43 PM
KatyD: I've got a dumb question for you. I get the 'cornflakes box', but why would you have a problem with an old newspaper? Was it not clean (or as clean as newspager can be?).
All my breakables are shipped with newspaper packing from a paper dated 1998 (same issue no less, please don't ask why I have 50 million pounds of the same stupid paper).
posted on September 2, 2000 06:58:20 PM
Certainly nice to hear the "other side of the coin". Particularly as I'm a seller who takes great pride in my packing, and overall customer service, and not overcharging or gouging. My customers seem to like the way we do business, and I have well over 1000 positive feedbacks to prove it
posted on September 2, 2000 07:38:03 PM
Lotsafuzz, the newspaper was from 1987. It was very old, NOT crisp, and stunk badly like mildew. Actually it wasn't a cornflakes box, but some kind of old electronics box that had been wet at some point and then dried, and it was kinda mushed and stunk too. I put it out on the back deck as soon as I opened it. The hoosier jar that was in it was in good shape, but VERY VERY dirty, lots of dried gunk. It went right into the sink, And yes, I paid "handling" and no, I don't think it was very "professional". Actually, I'm surprised it was in one piece considering the condition of the box and the packing.
posted on September 2, 2000 10:18:09 PM
Went to see the "Tall Ships Display, the movies, and to see "Sue". I see the thread has gotten interesting and I see more than a few have entered with very false accusations and finger pointing. It is sad that some users can't leave the Q and A at ebay and not bring it here. It is my thought that ebay must have suffered an outage during the day because they never the Q and A unless ebay is down. That in itself says an awful lot about them.
Time to catch up on some replies.
amy - sorry for the bad spacing was in a hurry to catch my train to the loop here it is in plain English for you.
What excuse was made about the negatives in the profile? You speak about the feedback like it's indicative of a bad ebay buyer/seller. And you slant your words to create a false impression about the profile. Heck 106 Positives with 100 being unique (including two from Griff at support), 15 neutrals, 6 negatives.Not picture perfect, but hasn't stopped a person from buying from me or selling to me. Like I said you brought it up to shift the discussion from the issue at hand. I personally find that behaviour annoying as do others apparently.
Cheyenne Roundup - Sorry but we throughly discussed the litigation and the lack of merits of it in both actual facts and law for that matter at great length. On another note blame amy and overworked for the thread taking the crazy turn into the twilight zone. Moving along I do not like being a celebrity. And I actually go through great lengths and considerable expense to protect my privacy.
argh - Thanks for the aide and assist but that litigation is old news and my name was known way before that. Chicago is a pretty big place and the address listed in the first articles wasn't and isn't my home address anyway. In fact, I hope none of my pals from the Q and A don't try visiting there. That building is located in the murder capital of Chicago the Englewood Community. But if they are that obsessed with me they can take their chances if they choose.
hopefulli - Yep there is some old history but I strive to the fullest to leave the past in the past. But some of the die hards of the past history seem to have a problem with being able to do that. Which is why they randomly appear to cause chaos in the threads. You've noticed it yourself, it starts with a twist about my feedback. Then it takes a nasty turn with an attack about my departure from ebay. As you noticed a slack attempt by some to disrupt threads started for the express purpose of inviting meaningful discussions on issues.
whynot - Technically since a bid is the max a person is willing to pay that is really an issue for ebay safeharbor because a seller doing that is engaging in fee avoidance from a technical aspect and very unethical behaviour from my viewpoint. Sellers like that might be liked by the buyers who grab the deals. But they help destroy the medium by creating situations for buyers to expect undue consideration from other sellers.
dejavu - Thank you for seeing spirited debate for just that and having the ability to not dwell on old debates on issues that have nothing to do with the current issue being discussed.
overworked I got you on ignore but I see your insane innuendo via email. Wouldn't want you to feel leftout. How's about proving your statements or am I only one expected to furnish proof of what I say. Keep in mind making that accusation might cause the World's Largest Trading Venue some trouble they don't need. You wouldn't want your accusations to lead to that would you? And did you see my lovely vent to you in the thread about your precious Q and A Shillfests disguised as contests. I had a lot of fun typing that one haven't had the chance to get ghetto in a long time. Thanks it was nice to know I still had it in me.
Wow buyers spending that kind of cash and I thought I was married to the only person doing that much buying without ever selling.
posted on September 2, 2000 10:41:19 PM"Wow buyers spending that kind of cash and I thought I was married to the only person doing that much buying without ever selling."
LOL, Networker. Well, I do keep saying that one of these days I'm going to start selling too, but I can see all the work that goes into selling. For the time being, I just appreciate and take advantage of all the care, thought and time that the sellers on eBay put into selling.
There may be a few sellers that demonstrate how NOT to sell on eBay. However, from what I've seen, those ARE the exceptions and they certainly don't lower the standards of the majority of eBay sellers in any way.
posted on September 2, 2000 10:52:25 PM
Odd how the only reports on the litigation are from Networker, ebay hasn't confirmed or denied anything. Same old song, lots of empty talk, "wait till you see what I'm gonna do" and nothing ever happens. Yes, you're a celebrity Braxton, a legend in your own mind.
Have a nice day on your hot dog cart tomorrow, hope it doesn't rain
posted on September 3, 2000 12:15:39 AM
I am mainly a seller but there is a once in a while someting is up for auction I can't resist. I bid on an item, won that item. Noticed my shipping and handling was $3.50. I didn't inquire about the shipping which I should have done and will do in the future so I assumed which I shouldn't have that it was going to be shipped Priority. What a surprise. I got the package in a padded mailer 5 x 7 with 77 cents postage. Now that is gouging in my book. This should probably be in that other thread. I haven't left a feed back yet because I read her description again and it said good condition, which is wasn't. I won't send it back because it wasn't to expensive but I will tell you that I would not have sold that item let alone say it was in good condition. I wrote and told the seller that I was disappointed in the item and I really had to clean it, then ofcourse the glue came off. Oh well thanks for listening.
posted on September 3, 2000 12:30:42 AM
overworked - Let's see you are waiting for ebay to hold a press conference and say what? Its obvious the frivilous litigation and their failure to win that TRO from the Judge is a slight embarrassment to them. Besides would you advertise that you hired $600.00 per hour lawyers to get an order against, "a hotdog cart vendor" ( your words not mine ) and the best they could do is get an agreed settlement to avoid the Real Issues which we both know would prove to be even more embarrassing from coming forward.
Or would you take your agreement (which by the way they have broken twice already) and pray that the hot dog seller (again your words not mine) is just as content as you are to let the matter fade away.
I know it hurts you sandbox members that your lies and innuendo proved useless in court. I know it hurts that the entire suit was posted and still is for that matter for the auction community to see. I know it hurts that you guys put so much work into that and didn't even get a mention or by-line in any of the limited coverage. But ask yourself this; how does a nobody manage to get a lawsuit killed in such a manner that the people making the allegations don't say anything. Maybe the nobody is actually somebody. Then again maybe the nobody really is a nobody and the case on its merits and evidence didn't stand a snowballs chance in hell of being won. And would eventually turn into a waste of time and money with the chance of turning into bad publicity for the company.
Besides I only talk about it when you and your sandbox pals surface and bring it up. The noted exception is the breeches of the agreement by ebay.
On that hotdog seller garbage. I live in Chicago. I will assume you have never heard of the Chicago Style Hotdog. Even if I were a hotdog seller pushing a cart. You can rest assure the cart would permanently be chained at the Mc Cormick Place Exposition Complex. With a hotdog stand there it would be possible to earn thousands a day selling the hotdogs. Afterall Chicago is the Tradeshow Capital of America. And since I hired some great lawyers its also obvious that hotdogs can be lucrative.
posted on September 3, 2000 08:36:43 AM
Gee, I thought this was Auctionwatch, not the eBay Q&A. Can the silly infighting be taken elsewhere? I suggest Delphi.
posted on September 3, 2000 09:54:53 AM
vargas - Infighting I am not fighting with those Q and A hyena packers. I am just making sure they don't saturate Auction Watch with lies and innuendo. Every thread they pop up in that includes me. They either bring up that closed litigation which we throughly discussed in this thread,
Or they try and paint me as this terrible guy over 4 transaction based negative feedbacks out of 127 total feedbacks in the profile. Or they even worse come over and call me "boy", hotdog vendor, and a few others to ruffle my feathers. Or they try to say I am a shiller and that didn't work for ebay in court so I really don't expect it to fly here. When those fail they just hurl false accusations that I have been on ebay.
I suspect ebay's recent rash of unexpected outages is the problem. And you are right having to discuss the facts and not lies and innuendo is annoying to me.
