posted on March 23, 2005 06:54:52 PM new
Linda -- Not only does she do that, but you can see a slight smile on her face when her mother touches her face.
Coincoach -- Yep, he said it.
For those that don't already know, my dad was in a horrific accident. He was put in a drug-induced coma due to the severity of his injuries. He heard EVERYTHING and remembers most of what happened, both of the accident and the months surrounding the accident. If we had given up on him, who knows?
I strongly disagree with the husband and doctors. You can see some life in Terri. It's a shame that all of this is going on. With no WRITTEN directive, this should not be happening.
posted on March 23, 2005 06:56:12 PM new
desquirrel - Terri has NOT been diagnosed as 'brain dead'. And some doctors believe the diagnosed of PVS could have been a misdiagnosis.
----
Few people ever recover from PVS, but in occasional cases, family members who visit the patient will detect evidence of awareness when doctors with limited patient contact will deny it. Eye tracking is often the earliest symptom of recovery.
As opposed to brain death, PVS is not recognized as death in any known legal system. This legal grey area has led to several court cases involving people in a PVS state, those who believe that they should be allowed to die, and those who are equally determined that, if recovery is possible, care should continue.
Well-known cases include Terri Schiavo, Paul Brophy, and Sunny von Bülow.
posted on March 23, 2005 07:06:56 PM new
::fenix - I know the info. WE get is from varying sources. But I'd sure like to see whose stated she's received PET scans. They weren't even available when this happened to Terri.::
The person who stated that was a state appointed guardian ordered to oversee and access her condition when this was first brought to the attention of the Govenor. He spent a month going over all tests that had been run and doing person accessments and determined that she she is indeed in an vegatative state. I didn't read about it. I watched an interview with him two days ago on Fox News.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on March 23, 2005 07:08:54 PM new
I know, Diane, I've read what her caregivers have said about Terri's behavior. They see her 'responding' to them. They've stated that after a visit from her husband she's very agitated when he leaves.
The caregiven that snuck some jello into her even said after tasting it she appeared to show great delight in it's good/different taste.
I will NEVER understand how this husband has been allowed to refuse therapy, medications, and now order removal of her food and water...when the circumstance of what actually hapened in the first place, to cause this is still not known.
I mean....at least giver her the benefit of the doubt..by letting her live and allowing her loving family to take care of her.
posted on March 23, 2005 07:11:59 PM new
Linda, That woman on the news show did not have a LIQUIFIED CEREBRAL CORTEX! She had a brain injury from which she was able to recover in a relatively short time. You can't lump all brain injury patients together. Those who have come out of comas and related their experiences obviously had much less brain injury than Terri Schiavo. She has been in a coma for 15 years! She is missing a huge portion of her brain, which will never "grow back."
posted on March 23, 2005 07:12:43 PM new
What really bothers me is that we (collectively) don't allow ANIMALS to starve! How can this happen? ESPECIALLY without a WRITTEN directive?
posted on March 23, 2005 07:14:29 PM new
coincoach -- Ok ... So we should treat her worse than we treat ANIMALS? She is a human-being without a WRITTEN directive!
posted on March 23, 2005 07:15:24 PM new
Well, my younger sister was hit by a car walking her bike across a crosswalk, she was 9 years old, and I was supposed to be watching her, she took off for the firework stand to buy more, my parents were gone.
She got hit, and was in a total body cast, everything was broken, and she was in a coma, this was in the sixties, and I am not sure if they had the scans they do today or not.. she was in that coma,and after a month the doctors told my parents she would not come out of it, and if she did, she would be a 'vegetable'. Surprisingly she did, after 6 months. After that my mother was bound and determined and hired personal therapists to come to the house, she looked JUST like Teri Shiavo does. My mom died not too long after, and she kinda went downhill, my father put her in a nursing home. But today she does have an apt (with the disabled) and has a nurse come check her. She reminds me so much of this Shiavo.. she cannot talk, she 'grunts' (for lack of a better word) but she did get the PT to touch a screen, a thing my dad bought for yes/no etc. She can't walk, sits in a chair needs help. And there was more than one time that we had to call 911 for her choking, she has a terrible swallowing reflex, but went through therapy, and can do it, but 'messes up' ALOT. Her hands are curled around, she looks around, she tries to talk, I can't tell you how much she reminds me of this person Schiavo.
Would my mother listen to the drs back then, OH HELL NO. She worked with her, along with other therapists, to get her at least to where she is today, and off feeding tubes.
I couldn't think of a worse thing as to dehydrate a human being.
posted on March 23, 2005 07:19:43 PM new
I'm not disputing you're read that...fenix..I'm saying I haven't. Do you have a link...or the 'guardian' who reviewed her cases name?
I heard Dr. Biden on Fox say that her abilities or lack thereof would depend on what PART of her brain was injured...has been damaged. That I have seen...no one has shown the documentation that proves her WHOLE brain is destroyed.
Doctors Have A Lot To Learn About PVS and Treating those Patients ^^^
Videotape shows her laughing at jokes, trying to speak and moving on command.
Schiavo’s attorney, George Felos, a euthanasia advocate who is also on the board of the nursing home where Terri resides, dismisses these interactions as the involuntary brain stem responses of a PVS patient.
“Patients in a vegetative condition have brain stem and midbrain reflexes, so they can breathe on their own, digest food, respond to pain somatically, and have involuntary movements,” he told Physician. “They have a primitive visual and auditory reflex. If they hear a loud noise, they’ll react.”
Meanwhile, Bob and Mary Schindler, Terri’s parents, stalwartly fight for custody of their daughter to save her life. They said her responses are purposeful, far from being simply brain stem reflexes. She attempts to talk to family and friends and verbally expresses her annoyance with caretakers during examinations. Moreover, the Schindlers believe that with proper time and therapy, Terri may recover. They claim she was making great strides in the first year after her collapse, when Schiavo had her in a rehabilitation center.
But after winning a $1 million malpractice suit in 1992, Schiavo put Terri in a nursing home, ordered nurses not to treat her infections and stopped all therapy -- sending her into a downward spiral.
Schiavo claimed, several years after the case began, that Terri told him she would want to die if she were ever incapacitated. Her parents say that wasn’t true, sparking massive legal wrangling.
[ edited by Linda_K on Mar 23, 2005 07:23 PM ]
posted on March 23, 2005 07:23:38 PM new
AGAIN. There are cases like this happening all over the world. The feeding tubes are taken out and the patient starves but NOT LIKE A HEALTHY person starves!
It is NOT the same thing....they are monitored by doctors and their families as to how much morphine is given to make them as comfortable as possible.
This is happening EVERYDAY in the U.S. and other countries.
This is a medically approved procedure.
This is how it is done.
Teri's parents are selfishly clinging to a shell...she has no brain.It won't grow back and "make her better".
What is so hard to understand about that.
Why don't those selfish people let her go to the "god" they believe in? Isn't that their alleged "purpose" for being on earth?
Weak faith? Or just weak?
posted on March 23, 2005 07:33:06 PM new
{{{Diane}}} and to {{{NearTheSea}}} also.
You've both been through something so similar, so close to this as I believe {{{bear}}} stated he has too.
I can't imagine being the wife/mother/sister/etc of Terri and wanting to badly to bring her home BUT because her husband wants her dead....looks like that's what's going to be allowed.
No matter if she ever reached 'full' capacity...I'd want to care for my loved one and help them experience whatever little tiny bit of life they could enjoy. I'd never stop fighting....I understand this families desire to keep her alive.
-----------
And if we as a Nation start deciding that lack of full brain function means we shouldn't keep these disabled alive....then Alzheimers patients better watch out too.
posted on March 23, 2005 07:38:02 PM new
"""And if we as a Nation start deciding that lack of full brain function means we shouldn't keep these disabled alive....then Alzheimers patients better watch out too."""
And , if we as a nation, let congress step in and grandstand in the most private, personal moment of our lives which should only be between ourselves, our doctors and our families......
then everybody better watch it!
Oh, and Alzheimer's patients HAVE a cerebral cortex.....Schiavo does not.
posted on March 23, 2005 07:42:28 PM new
This situation occurs all over the country, every day, by the thousands. This is not a unique situation. In fact, due to a law signed in Texas by then Gov. Bush allowing this, an infant was recently removed from all life support by his doctors, despite the objections of the mother. This case has become a political issue, which is what I find to be dispicable and exploitative of the Schiavo's and Schindlers.
NeartheSea- I am so sorry about your sister and pray for her continued recovery.
Bizzy--no where do I say she should be treated worse than animals. I am not in favor of mistreatment of anyone or anything. In my eyes (and, it seems, the majority of the country) the mistreatment is in artificially sustaining life just because we can.
posted on March 23, 2005 07:51:17 PM new
Linda - I don't remember his name but he was a guest of .. I think Cavuto (is he on after Greta?)about 3am or so the same day that the brunette woman you talked about earlier that was in the coma was on. I'll see if I can find something on their website
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on March 23, 2005 07:55:20 PM new
These kind of statements get me the most.
artificially sustaining life just because we can.
She was NOT being artificially sustained. She was living without any aid.
We ALL need nourishment and water to survive. If any HEALTHY person had food and water refused to them....they'd die too. THAT'S WHY she's dying....not for anyother reason, illness, complication, ec. She's being murdered.
posted on March 23, 2005 08:06:15 PM new
fenix - To clarify - I'm not saying you didn't read or hear it.
What I'm trying to say is that on both the media and in the news....many are repeating the same thing over and over. But they are not identifying the names of the people who supposedly say certain things. They are just repeating what they've heard somewhere else.
Like in the past couple of days...once again the media is being accused of not putting in Terri's caregivers, close friends, etc...or treating doctors. They're just repeating the 'hype'....and we're all arguing over who's correct and who's not.
When in reality it doesn't matter. What matters is that this husband had no proof of anything Terri said....and many say differently.
This husband wants her to die....the rest of her family doesn't.
So, if we are to 'error' I don't understand the reasoning behind those who are so opposed to her being 'left' alone/left in her current state or left in her parents care who want to see if therapy MIGHT work.
It appears to me....too many support the taking of life if it doesn't meet THEIR citeria of 'how it should be'. There are millions of children who were/are Down's Syndrome kids....they're parents care for them, love them, and accept they don't have the 'brain capacity' to do more than whatever it is they CAN do. They just enjoy them being alive...not because of what they can or can't do. Not because of their 'brains'....but because they are human...theirs....and they love them.
posted on March 23, 2005 08:18:15 PM new
Linda---So sorry if I upset you. She is not able to take nourishment or water without a feeding tube. She cannot swallow or feed herself. She is being artificially sustained. Of course healthy people will die without nourishment or water, but unless you get lost in the woods or someone locks you in a closet, that is not going to happen because we are able to feed ourselves and swallow. I am not saying she should die because she cannot feed herself. I have as much sympathy for her and her family as you do. But after 7 years of hearings, appeals, motions, etc. the court has been satisfied through testimony and/or evidence that she did not want to be kept alive if she suffered a devastating illness such as this. How do you know her husband wants her to die? That is an irresponsible statement. Suppose he has been agonizing over this for 15 years and found the strength to comply with his wife's wishes? This is a story with no happy ending, no matter what the outcome.
[ edited by coincoach on Mar 23, 2005 08:21 PM ]
posted on March 23, 2005 08:18:52 PM new
Linda - kids with Downs can interreact. It's truly unfair to compare them. I really wish I could find the guys name or a transcript of the interview because he acknowledges the phsysical actions but also explains why they are all happening and why they do not contradict the current diagnosis.
It was a really interesting interview both because of what he was saying and because of how hard Cavuto was working to get him to say different. His bias on this one is above and beyond. That's one guy I would not put in charge of executing my living will.. he seems to believe that no matter what someone says beforehand, they wouldn't feel the same if the hypothetical became reality.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on March 23, 2005 08:23:39 PM new
Some people are repulsed by seeing my sister. In public, if she needs to drink, she does this thing, that makes me think she is choking, and well, while eating, its NOT a pretty sight. Half her food is out of her mouth. But she has come this far, and I do think this is the farthest she will ever come, in fact I'm certain it is. Take away her food and water, because she can't do it herself, there is NO FREAKING WAY! who's to say what the quality of someone elses life is?
I will have to agree with Pres. Bush when he said something like 'if we should err, let us err on the side of life'
posted on March 23, 2005 08:34:03 PM new
coincoach - Please excus my manner....I don't do well at expressing myself in the 'tone' I would always like to. We are ONLY disagreeing.
First of all being fed though a tube is NOT consider, in the medical profession, to be on 'life support systems'.
Second of all, many point to all the appeals. But, imo, what they don't understand is those appeals ONLY dealt with/looked at LEGAL issues....not her medical ones. They were dealing with laws only. Not her past nor present medical care and whether it's appropriate or not. Just whether the husband has the 'right' to continuing doing what he wants...under the law...like starving her to death. They agree that's okay, under the law, for him to do this.
And case you brought up of the mother who was overruled on her child's continuing care.....her child WAS on life support systems. That's different in my eyes.
--------
Fenix - I don't agree....that DS children can respond and Terri can't. Neither you no I, other than viewing the tapes, know just how she responds to her family. THEY say differently. I have no reason not to believe them...nor there love for their daughter/sister. Whereas I have enormous doubt about her husbands intentions....have all along.
posted on March 23, 2005 08:40:28 PM new
fenix - ...no matter what someone says beforehand, they wouldn't feel the same if the hypothetical became reality.
No proof she said nor felt this way beforehand.
if the hypothetical became reality....you know my fairly recent loss....he and I both said as we looked as others so misfortunate that if we ever got like that 'please shoot me', to one anyother. Which some outsider could have taken that to me we really meant that. He was one that changed his thoughts on this...at the very last.
posted on March 23, 2005 08:44:01 PM new
I now think her parents should be charged with cruelty. I just saw a recent picture of Teri.....so different from the original. They gave her a MAKEOVER!
MY GAWD! They fixed her hair, put on makeup....what nasty, disgusting way to put her "on display".
Didn't look like they worried about her looks before but they and their lawyers must have brought in a PR person. Disgusting....almost as disgusting as the Republicans requesting that she attend Senate hearings!!!! Putting her on display !
And , speaking of the Repugs, looks like this little prank is backfiring....even Evangelical religious groups are against their interference and grandstanding.
posted on March 23, 2005 09:05:33 PM new
And I wanted to share one other thing too. That is that many doctors I've known and some I've worked with, have told me that even when their patients have them place the DNR stickers on their admisson wrist bands....the patient changes their mind at the last minute and decides they want to fight for their life.
posted on March 23, 2005 09:08:41 PM new
Linda - the second paragraph had nothing to do with the case at hand, only with the opinions that he voiced in his statements on the show, and that I noticed he also stated in a commentary while I was trying to find a transcript of the interview I mentioned.
Regarding your husband, he was able to express his change of heart so that you could follow his wishes and I think thats a great thing. Cavutos opinion seems to be that even if he expressed no such change of heart he certainly must have had one and that his initial stated desires should be ignored.
BTW - If you want to avoid battles such as this in your family you might want to check out this form.
http://www.agingwithdignity.org/5wishes.html
It allows you to dicate what level of care you want regarding "heroic measures" as well as basic things such as the type of day to day care you would like while under care. It deals not just with medical but also spiritual care.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on March 23, 2005 09:08:48 PM new
Hey Linda, It is hard not to get emotional about this case, no matter which side you are on. None of us know what bits of information are true and what ones are not. There is so much information and misinformation. Listen to MSNBC, the news is slanted one way. Listen to FOX and it is slanted the other way. I base my opinion of this case on many things. A spouse is considered next of kin and the court has upheld this. Independent neurologists and medical tests support the opinion that Terri's brain sustained massive damage from which she will never recover. The court has decided that the evidence and testimony is convincing enough to support the fact that Terri did not wish to be kept alive in this condition. As I said before, this is a no-win, sad situation whatever the outcome.
posted on March 23, 2005 09:30:19 PM new
fenix - We already had living wills....ones where you could spell out what exactly what YOU did or didn't want done to save your life. We also had given power of attorney to each other to be sure our wishes were carried out...as WE directed.
I must admit it does surprise me that you, of all people - being a woman, who I'd presume has read all the accusations of his mistreatment of Terri, her talking to friends about leaving him, their statements of her coming to work with bruses on her arms and legs, her hospital records showing all the previous injuries...and the fact there was nothing in writing. I could ever agree that HE, of all people, should have been made her guardian. I KNOW it's Florida law....and that's the law that is continuing to be upheld in these different court hearings we're now watching. But that doesn't make it morally right....at least not to me...when there is this doubt and unbiased statement from her caregivers, friends ...not only her family.
Sometimes I think this case just basically comes down to do we or do we not support euthanasia. And it appears more on the left do than those on the right. Just as it is with the abortion issue.
posted on March 23, 2005 09:40:49 PM new
coincoach - The problem I have with the 'witnesses' you mention is that the only ones who told the court this was Michael, his bother and sister. Others who testified said she had never mentioned any such thing.
Don't get me wrong....HAD her whole family, along with Terri's husband agreed this should have happened, this WAS for sure her wish...I wouldn't [might not be] feeling so strongly about all this. It's BECAUSE of the husbands actions....that in no way appear loving to me in ANY WAY, shape or form....that cause me to have doubt. She was a devout Catholic....and they don't believe in taking life before God does.
And again, BECAUSE there IS doubt....disagreement....there's no reason her husband SHOULD, by law, have the right to withdraw food and water ...which is ALL she has needed to survive on.
posted on March 23, 2005 10:02:15 PM new
This is disgusting. To keep a human shell alive long after the cognitive portion of the brain has died is worse than hanging onto a dress just because the prez blew his load on it.
There is no 'life' being extended. This is death being extended. Yes, a line should be drawn and it should be well before this sad state of affairs.
The do-gooders do damage again.
__________
The Islamofascist fig-puckers are fighting to spread their culture and religion, and to destroy ours
posted on March 24, 2005 02:26:36 AM new
While riding in the car tonight we were listening to Michael Savage. Now before you moan and groan it was really interesting. He had a nurse on the program that took care of Teri. Here is an article from his website.
Tuesday, March 22, 2005 11:52 p.m. EST
Second, Third Nurse Accuse Michael Schiavo
Two additional nurses have filed affidavits in the Terri Schiavo case that corroborate bombshell allegations by nurse Carla Sauer Iyer, who went public on Tuesday with claims that Michael Schiavo had deliberately withheld treatment from his disabled wife.
Heidi Law was a certified nursing assistant at the Palm Garden Convalescent Center in Largo, Fla., where she treated Mrs. Schiavo in 1997.
In an affidavit filed with the court in August 2003, Ms. Law maintained:
"I know that Terri did not receive routine physical therapy or any other kind of therapy. I was personally aware of orders for rehabilitation that were not being carried out. Even though they were ordered, Michael would stop them."
Law continued:
"Michael ordered that Terri receive no rehabilitation or range of motion therapy. I and [another CNA] would give Terri range of motion anyway, but we knew we were endangering our jobs by doing so.
"We usually did this behind closed doors," Law said, because "we were so fearful of being caught ... we were always looking out for Michael, because we knew that, not only would Michael take his anger out on us, but he would take it out more on Terri. We spoke of this many times."
"At least three times during any shift where I took care of Terri, I made sure to give Terri a wet washcloth filled with ice chips, to keep her mouth moistened.
"On three or four occasions I personally fed Terri small mouthfuls of Jello, which she was able to swallow and enjoyed immensely. I did not do it more often only because I was so afraid of being caught by Michael."
Like nurse Iyer, Law suspected that Michael was mistreating Terri, noting in her sworn statement:
"Several times when Michael visited Terri during my shift, he went into her room alone and closed the door. This worried me because I didn’t trust Michael.
"When he left, Terri was very agitated, was extremely tense with tightened fists and sometimes had a cold sweat. She was much less responsive than usual and would just stare out the window, her eyes kind of glassy. ...
"We were convinced that he was abusing her, and probably saying cruel, terrible things to her because she would be so upset when he left."
"The Palm Gardens staff, myself included, were just amazed that a 'Do Not Resuscitate' order had been put on Terri’s chart, considering her age and her obvious cognitive awareness of her surroundings."
Carolyn Johnson, a certified nursing assistant who worked at the Sabal Palms nursing home in Largo, said Terri's mistreatment went back to at least 1993.
"During this assignment I took care of Terri Schiavo several times," Johnson said in her own August 2003 affidavit.
"I learned, as part of my training, that there was a family dispute and that the husband, as guardian, wanted no rehabilitation for Terri. This surprised me, as I did not think a guardian could go against a doctor's orders like that, but I was assured that a guardian could and that this guardian had gone against Terri's doctor's orders."
Johnson recalled: "No one was allowed to just go in and see Terri. Michael had a visitors list. We all knew that we would lose our jobs if we did not do exactly what Michael said to do."
Johnson continued:
"I remember seeing Michael Schiavo only once the entire time I worked at Sabal Palms, but we were all aware that Terri was not to be given any kind of rehabilitative help, per his instructions.
"Once, I wanted to put a cloth in Terri's hand to keep her hand from closing in on itself, but I was not permitted to do this," Johnson said, "as Michael Schiavo considered that to be a form of rehabilitation."
End of article.*****************
She also stated at one time when she entered the room she found an empty bottle of insulin and needle marks on Teri arm. She did report this to police in a police report.
There is something drastically wrong and I hope they find out what it is. It won't help her but I don't know but from what I have seen of her "husband" I would want no part of him. I understand he is 6' 7" tall.
I know that Linda said something about trauma, I wonder..........
_________________
[ edited by Libra63 on Mar 24, 2005 02:39 AM ]
posted on March 24, 2005 02:33:31 AM new
Linda - the problem with all those reports is that they come so late in the game. Where were they when she went into the hospital? How did the hospital miss all of these supposedly broken bones at admission. How is it that no hospital employee ever saw these bruises that she was supposedly sporting at the time of her stroke? Basically there have been so many ridiculous allegations (i.e. stroke and potasium depletion brought on by strangulation?) that I just don't believe these people. Did they go to the DA at the time or is it just that 15 years later when they can get on TV they have a story to tell.
As for the nurse that snuck food in? Excuse me? I don't believe her but if she telling the truth, she should be fired. She just decided to take it upon herself one day to start feeding a patient who had not had solid foods in a decade? What kind of irresposible fool does that?
Then there is the expert from the Mayo clinic who spends ten minutes in a room with her, does no examination and declares dozens of other experts are all wrong.
It does not make sense to me Linda. If I weigh the two sides... it's the parents side that lacks logic and believeability in my mind.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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