posted on September 7, 2000 08:01:45 AM
This is really very simple. The bidder asked the seller to make an exception to his TOS and sell (ship) to him in Canada. Seller was nice enough to do that. And yes, "nice enough" IS the correct wording IMO, because the seller could have said "No way!".
The bidder knew that the seller wasn't used to selling internationally. The bidder knew the facts. The seller didn't. Does this make the seller a bad seller? No. The seller was doing the bidder a favor. The bidder should have informed the seller about the added charge by UPS. If I do a favor for someone, I would reasonably expect them to inform me of this happening with UPS. I shouldn't be expected to research all of the possible problems associated with accomodating a request that I make an exception to my TOS, especially when the bidder (Canadian) should be familiar with transactions involving his home country.
And some people have a hard time understanding why some sellers hesitate to ship internationally. Well, I sincerely doubt that THIS seller will ever ship ANYTHING internationally again. This bidder deserves a neg.
posted on September 7, 2000 08:07:42 AM
abingdoncomputers - how do you know the buyer knew 'the facts' about the UPS GRAFT?
I think you are making a false assumption here. It looks to me like the buyer was not aware of this ...
Neither the seller nor the buyer need or deserve a neg for this. It was simply a matter of neither knowing about the UPS problem. Now, they both know, and I, for one, hope they both continue to do trade internationally. With all due respect, it is people like you who don't know the facts but have very rigid ideas that tend to turn off potential international 'newbies'. Please lay off them and let them experience the joys of communicating with the rest of the world
Thank you.
[ edited by RB on Sep 7, 2000 08:11 AM ]
posted on September 7, 2000 08:13:04 AMequestrian, I am sorry that this has happened to you. I would think that the insurance would cover this package. If this happened to me I would advise the seller to ask about the insurance. If they told me that there was no insurance coverage I would ask for pictures of the damaged package and contents. If customs opened it and trashed it there should be a customs sticker on the package. Since you did not open the package or accept it you are not responsible. It is the seller's responsibility to have the goods delivered to you.
posted on September 7, 2000 08:14:55 AM
I once called UPS to ask about shipping to Canada. They did NOT mention the brokerage fee even when I asked them on the phone to tell me all fees that I or my customer could be expected to pay. They did say that customs might add taxes but they did not mention that UPS adds a handling fee. So how is a seller supposed to know? But I think that a buyer who lives in Canada is more responsible to know about this.
Again, it was the buyer who refused the package. At that point, assuming it arrived safely, the seller should refund the payment made, less any shipping and packaging expenses. The buyer chose to refuse it, the buyer should pay any costs involved. So no matter what, the buyer is not entitled to full refund.
I believe that the standard UPS insurance applies to any package, including Canada, so the seller should be able to recover at least the cost of the goods. At that point, he should refund the buyer anything he gets over his cost of shipping and packaging.
posted on September 7, 2000 08:18:49 AMeventer, you are correct in saying as a seller it is not your responsiblity to know every tax that is placed on the item. This, however, is a charge, by the shipping company, and is so stated in their TOS. The buyer paid a set amount for shipping, and should expect to get it for that amount unless the seller sends it via a method that will incur additional cost. The seller should have said beforehand, "By the way, I am shipping this via UPS" which is an alternative shipping method, not the dominant one, USPS.
abingdoncomputers, the buyer may have asked to have it shipped to Canada, but the seller said "yes"! If they didn't want the hassle, then they simply needed to say, "no". Instead, are you suggesting that the buyer should have ESP and know that the seller would send it via UPS rather than USPS, or that the buyershould send an email outlining every possible thing that a seller should know about shipping to that country? I don't think so. It is very clearly outlined on the USPS site what goods are and are not permissible to be shipped to any country, what restrictions there are, etc. Not that difficult for a seller to figure out...
And what about the issue of insurance? If UPS insurance should cover this, why is the seller not following through on that? Just refund the money, and collect the claim through UPS.
posted on September 7, 2000 08:28:40 AMThe seller should have said beforehand, "By the way, I am shipping this via UPS" which is an alternative shipping method, not the dominant one, USPS.
Excuse Me? We now have dominant and non-dominant shipping methods? Well, learn something NEW everyday! And WHO is to determine what IS and ISN'T dominant?
Shipping via UPS may indeed BE this seller's "dominant" way of shipping, therefore they shipped it based on the way they ship most of their products.
Yes, this is a charge..but not to the seller, but to the customer. Is a seller also supposed to know that XYZ customer has a general mail delivery rather than delivery to their house which means they have to spend the gas money to go pick something up & adjust the shipping costs accordingly?
Neither the buyer NOR the seller deserve a negative here...there's plenty of blame & lack of communication on BOTH sides. I hope they can work it out because it's not going to be a win-win no matter what happens.
posted on September 7, 2000 08:33:33 AM
Well, by "dominant" I'm referring to the fact that more people use USPS than UPS. If that were not the case, wouldn't everyone being getting UPS deliveries every day? I know my United State Postal Service carrier comes to my house Monday through Saturday to delivery mail, but I rarely see the UPS man. Guess that means one is "dominant" ie "more often used" than the other.
posted on September 7, 2000 08:54:45 AM
Abingdon computers
You seem to be psychic? How do you know the seller made an "exception" to their TOS?
I've had numerous US based sellers tell me in the past that "geesh, I didn't mean Canada, I just don't like to ship Overseas".
Those sellers were more than happy to accept my bid. A few of them didn't even know there was a USA Only shipping default checked off on their auctions. Strange, but true.
The seller clearly stated when asked:
"YES I WOULD BE WILLING TO SEND XXXXX TO YOU JUST MAKE PAYMENT I THE FORM OF CERTIFIED FUNDS US CURRENCY. THANK YOU FOR YOUR INTEREST"
I'm not suggesting that the seller should receive a neg for a simple shipping mistake on their part. I'm suggesting that like any business person they should make good on this deal, no matter where the blame is to fall. At this point it seems the seller has simply decided to wash their hands of the whole mess. What sort of feedback do you suggest the buyer should leave, a positive?
I honestly can't believe that a seller wouldn't be willing to refund the $32.00 bid amount & possibly make an unhappy customer into a repeat buyer?
posted on September 7, 2000 09:39:05 AM
I had not even thought about leaving feedback at this point - I just want to resolve this whole thing.
hamburgler
you wrote: I think now you regret it and want a sympathy party and are trying to invite as many people as you can.
Excuse me?! I am not having a 'sympathy party' - I thought the idea of the EO was to be able to discuss issues for both buyer and seller. I am not looking for sympathy! I wanted opinions on what I should do next since others may have dealt with this problem before.
You also wrote: Get off the high horse you seem to be sitting on and do what is right and get it past you. If you know all these fees and expenses from USPS and UPS why didnt you insure it was coming by the way you wanted it to.
Actually, my horse is not that high What do you think is the 'right thing' to do? Just forget about it all and move on? I have never had dealings with UPS before this time so I did not know to specify that it should not be sent that way - every item I have ever bought through ebay has been sent USPS. And what extra expenses? I was told by UPS that the seller would not be charged to have the item returned to them, so what ohter expenses have they incurred?
abingdoncomputers
What the??? Why, pray tell, do I deserve a neg? I sent my payment off within a day of the auction, I have not been demanding in my emails - in fact I am the one that has been emailing to find out the status of the whole sitiuation - the seller has not been keeping in contact with me. So please tell me why you think *I* deserve one - since you 'rarely' advocate that.
I also will mention that I have not asked for my money back or the products - I came here first to see what people 'outside' of the situation would think should be done to resolve it.
posted on September 7, 2000 10:33:50 AM
I still think the sellers should file an insurance claim with UPS. Maybe email them once more and nicely ask them if they can do so? Did they show proof to you that the item was damaged?
This may be one of those "things happen" sales and I am sorry that you came here looking for help and that you are being accused of trying to evade customs fees, etc. and that this is all your fault.
If this continues, soon you will be accused of selling your horse to a glue factory and shipping the contents UPS to unsuspecting buyers!
posted on September 7, 2000 10:39:44 AM
*How* was the seller to know that the Canadian buyer would get hit with an extra charge? I'm a seller and I didn't know that!! I agree that it doesn't seem fair that the buyer be out both their money and the item(s) but I don't see exactly what the seller has done wrong. They shipped it (I assume) their normal way - then the buyer refuses it!! Huh!!! As a seller, I'd be upset. Then they get it back and it's damaged. Now what??
Overall, I think the buyer is more at fault. He/she should know how these things are handled in their own country. (Especially since evidently UPS doesn't disclose this fee to the sender.) The buyer should have accepted the package in the first place and chalked it up to a learning experience.
Things like this confirm my decision not to buy or sell internationally.
posted on September 7, 2000 10:48:50 AMabingdoncomputers - how do you know the buyer knew 'the facts' about the UPS GRAFT?
I think you are making a false assumption here. It looks to me like the buyer was not aware of this ...
You could very well be correct that the buyer may not have been aware of the UPS "graft" as others have put it. And since the buyer contacted the seller to get seller to agree to ship internationally, it was incumbent upon the buyer to do any research involved as to shipping issues. Blaming the seller after the fact is a cop-out.
reddeer:
You seem to be psychic? How do you know the seller made an "exception" to their TOS?
Because the buyer included the following in the initial post:
Now, just to clarify, I had written before bidding asking if they would ship to Canada and this was the reply (sorry for the caps - I just cut & pasted their email):
[i]YES I WOULD BE WILLING TO SEND XXXXX TO YOU JUST MAKE PAYMENT IN THE
FORM OF CERTIFIED FUNDS US CURRENCY. THANK YOU FOR YOUR INTEREST[/i]
If the seller didn't have US only in his TOS, there would be no reason for the buyer to ask if he would be willing to ship to Canada.
abingdoncomputers
What the??? Why, pray tell, do I deserve a neg? I sent my payment off within a day of the auction, I have not been demanding in my emails - in fact I am the one that has been emailing to find out the status of the whole sitiuation - the seller has not been keeping in contact with me. So please tell me why you think *I* deserve one - since you 'rarely' advocate that.
You deserve a neg because the seller shipped the item. You received the item but refused delivery due to an extra charge that YOU should have known about (not the seller). The item was returned to the seller in mangled condition (not your fault). Now, you're asking for a refund, which would leave the seller without the item in resalable condition and no money? That, IMO, is why you deserve a neg. You're trying to make the seller pay for YOUR error. Simple as that.
[ edited by abingdoncomputers on Sep 7, 2000 10:49 AM ]
[ edited by abingdoncomputers on Sep 7, 2000 10:51 AM ]
posted on September 7, 2000 10:50:10 AM
barb ... with all due respect, you're not reading ALL the words in these posts
"How* was the seller to know that the Canadian buyer would get hit with an extra charge? I'm a seller and I didn't know that!!"
How indeed! That is exactly my point! If you decided one day to come out of your shell (off your island) and start dealing with the rest of the world, and if you sent me something via UPS, and if I had to pay their GRAFT, I would NOT blame you. The whole point of this discussion, at least from my POV, is to educate sellers AND buyers that this GRAFT thing exists with UPS. There is no blame associated with either the seller or the buyer You didn't know this due to your choice to restrict your activity to whatever part of the world you live in.
"I agree that it doesn't seem fair that the buyer be out both their money and the item(s) but I don't see exactly what the seller has done wrong."
See above ...
"Overall, I think the buyer is more at fault."
See above ...
"The buyer should have accepted the package in the first place and chalked it up to a learning experience."
RIGHT!!!!
"Things like this confirm my decision not to buy or sell internationally."
posted on September 7, 2000 11:11:32 AM
equestrian:
I'm not trying to trash you as a buyer or a person here. Far from it. IMO however, for this transaction, you deserve a neg. You're blaming the seller for not knowing what you obviously didn't know yourself (about the UPS "graft", and being a Canadian, you are in a better position to have this knowledge than the seller. If you had known about the charge, surely you would have "clued the seller in", seeing how the seller doesn't normally ship to Canada.
You are in effect attempting to punish the seller for something that clearly is not his fault. Is the UPS add-on charge outrageous? I think most posters on this board would agree that it is. Is this the seller's fault? No. Is it your fault? No. The fault lies in trying to pass the onus onto the seller, when your beef is with UPS, not the seller (or at least it should be). I sympathize with your being gouged by UPS. I think a stern letter of disapproval to them about this matter might be in order. If enough Canadian buyers let UPS know how you feel about this and that the USPS is getting the bulk of the business because of it, maybe UPS would change this policy.
Here's the proper solution to this situation: Leave the seller a pos feedback and chalk this one up to a lesson learned. Just maybe the seller will reciprocate in kind. Maybe not. But there is nothing to be gained by either party by pursuing this any farther. Yes, you are out your money. But you are the one who refused delivery in the fist place. If the seller refunded, he would be out both the merchandise (for all intents and purposes) and the money. I think we can all see what is fair here.
posted on September 7, 2000 11:23:57 AM
"Here's the proper solution to this situation: Leave the seller a pos feedback and chalk this one up to a lesson learned. Just maybe the seller will reciprocate in kind. Maybe not. But there is nothing to be gained by either party by pursuing this any farther."
posted on September 7, 2000 12:01:21 PM
equestrian,
You said that your intention was to refuse the package so it would be shipped back to the seller, then resent at USPS so you could avoid the high "delivery" charge by UPS.
Did you offer to pay the seller a second shipping charge given that they had already paid UPS once & would have to pay again to have it shipped via USPS?
posted on September 7, 2000 12:24:28 PMThe seller was doing the bidder a favor.
The seller was conducting business, with the intent of making money. As it should be. EBay transactions, like real life business, don't translate to "favors", and people who imagine they do are in for a few rude awakenings until that sinks in.
posted on September 7, 2000 12:38:07 PM
I'm not quite sure how I'd apportion blame in the initial transaction; it seems neither the seller or the buyer was aware of the extra charge from UPS and each acted in good faith.
What does disturb me, though, it that the seller is refusing to follow through on the damage and assist the buyer in obtaining insurance money for the damaged items. That is unreasonable. The seller has the items and the money, the seller is the only one at this time who can pursue and insurance claim, and his curt email would earn him a neutral (at least) from me.
posted on September 7, 2000 12:39:02 PM
There are many circumstances where eBay transactions result in favors being done one way or another. Business is business and it is a part of life. Try as we might, we cannot completely seperate running a business from running our lives. That's why undeserved negs hurt so much. Sure, it's just business. But business is a part of life. There are emotions involved. Just read most any AW thread if you need proof. And anytime emotions are involved, there will be favors done from time to time. I have had favors done for me regarding eBay transactions and I have done a few myself. My bet is that you have too.
posted on September 7, 2000 12:44:20 PMMy bet is that you have too {done favors}
Yes I do.
But I don't describe what I'm doing as being a Good Samaritan, motivated by altruism, and thus deserving of protection from the consequences when things don't work out as imagined.
I describe doing favors as good business, and no more worthy of protection when poorly implemented than making any other bad business decision.
>>Did you offer to pay the seller a second shipping charge given that they had already paid UPS once & would have to pay again to have it shipped via USPS?<<
Yes, my intention (when I sent the parcel back) was to pay for the item to be resent via USPS - I would never have expected the seller to pay this. Remember too - it was *I* who actually paid for the shipping in the first place not them. I was waiting to hear from them in regards to the cost - they wrote to say the items were damaged, what to do....after learning that UPS insures up to $100, I suggested that they check into this and had heard nothing until I wrote again yesterday to inquire. Just to clarify - This is not a case of buyers remorse - I still wanted the items.
I will have to review my previous posts but I do not believe that I have ever 'blamed' the seller for anything as it has been suggested. Why should I? Neither the seller nor I knew at the time about this brokerage fee. Choosing sides - who is right and who is wrong is not even an issue. And I did not want to rehash the whole 'International trade - pros & cons'.
What I came here for was to see how others (both sellers & buyers) would resolve this.
posted on September 7, 2000 01:58:30 PM
equestrian,
Yes, my intention
Good for you.
Cutting to the heart of the matter, it's doubtful this can be salvaged...but I'd give it one more chance.
Write the seller & tell them you were caught totally off guard by the UPS charge (as they were) and that your intention had been to pay for it to be shipped via USPS once it had been returned to them.
Offer some sympathy for the items being damaged & your hopes that they are able to get their claim quickly settled by UPS. (In doing it this way...you are setting the stage that it's your opinion THEY should handle the claim, not you).
If you want to be done w/all this, consider asking for your original purchase price back & forgetting the shipping, chalking it up to a learning experience.
If I were the seller, I'd refund the whole damn thing..but not every seller feels this way. Hopefully, they'll respond (and maybe refund it all!).
If they refuse to refund anything, I'd take it from there.
posted on September 7, 2000 02:15:21 PM
To sum up: the Canadian bidder paid the amount of shipping requested by the US seller, without clarifying how it would be shipped. The US shipper uses UPS, the bidder gets a hefty "brokerage fee" charged before UPS will deliver.
I had the same thing happen to me. I spent much time on the phone with UPS, asking them why they charge this much. They say that Customs charges them that much. However, people I've talked to have managed to get UPS to waive the charges. It just depends who you get in customer service.
I called the shop in the states who sold me the stuff and shipped UPS. They said they couldn't stop shipping UPS because UPS provided all their tills. Talk about a deal with the devil.
Why do we have to blame the bidder or the seller? It's clear to me that the culprit here is *UPS*. UPS doesn't tell the sender that they will be charging a huge fee to the recipient. UPS deceives the sender by charging a low fee on their end, not telling them that their buyer will be unhappy. The new buyer had no way of knowing this fee existed, and the seller wasn't told by UPS.
posted on September 7, 2000 02:25:55 PMequestrian,
Has the seller provided you with pictures of the damaged items? If they had photos in their listing it would seem a simple matter for them to take pictures of the damage and email them to you as an attachment.
What is the seller's feedback like? Is this an experienced or new seller?
It appears that a lack of early communication by both parties has created this problem.
The thing that concerns me is the sellers reluctance in contacting UPS with the insurance claim.
It is possibe that the seller has the buyer's money, the damaged merchandise, and can collect the insurance money for himself.
It is also possibe that the seller has the buyer's money and undamaged merchandise that he can sell again.
I am an eBay powerseller and usually side with the seller, but not in this case. The one thing that makes me suspicious is the seller not making the insurance claim with UPS. The buyer is helpless in making the claim as she doesn't have the merchandise or the UPS shipping and tracking documents to make a claim herself.
This has a definate odor. The seller has everything, the buyer has nothing.
I wish the buyer would invite the seller to this discussion.
posted on September 7, 2000 02:41:02 PMI describe doing favors as good business, and no more worthy of protection when poorly implemented than making any other bad business decision.
This transaction wasn't poorly implemented. The item was sent and refused by the seller. Just because the seller used UPS, which charges an add-on charge for Canadian buyers, doesn't mean the seller poorly implemented the transacation. It just means that the seller and buyer were both unaware of the extra charge.
What do you think is the 'right thing' to do? Just forget about it all and move on? I have never had dealings with UPS before this time so I did not know to specify that it should not be sent that way - every item I have ever bought through ebay has been sent USPS. And what extra expenses? I was told by UPS that the seller would not be charged to have the item returned to them, so what ohter expenses have they incurred?