posted on September 10, 2000 09:06:36 AM
Last word on this subject and I'm going back to being a PRIVATE citizen again.
I have all the telephone numbers for ebay and some are personal. So I did post, since people were asking, that I if someone wanted them, email me privately, of course.
Got a "requst" to cease posting these numbers (what numbers?) from a Pinkie and so I replied back, sure, just as you ask me to not give out YOUR phone number, I'd ask the same of YOU.
Response," as per the user agreement, my phone number was on file." Yes. That is true, but not going out over the wires everytime an auction ends. So she suggested I buy a voice mail and PO Box. I also stated that since I'd paid ebay hundreds last month, I hardly think I'm going to shell out more money just for my privacy. I also pointed out that this was fodder for big trouble down the road, imagine, new bidder does not hear from you in the allotted time. What does he/she do? Call, then neg. It is human nature.
My posts and others posts were removed so the 'not able to remove posts' is a crock. But I knew that.
Now I will cease and desist and say happy telephoning from your favorite bidders. Because ebay leads one to believe that everyone is a crook EXCEPT THEM.
posted on September 10, 2000 09:11:53 AM
The Electronic Privacy Information Center has a list of organizations involved in the electronic privacy issue.
It can be found at:
http://www.epic.org/privacy/privacy_resources_faq.html#Privacy_Organizations
posted on September 10, 2000 09:55:05 AM
To all: I haven't read ALL the posts but wonder if there is someone notifying the NEWS MEDIA everywhere about this....I am going to forward info to ACCESS Magazine we get in every Sunday paper. If everyone takes a small step, maybe, no,let's not say 'maybe'....let's make that 'WE WILL' stop this before anyone gets hurt. For anyone living alone, and others of course,this is a real threat to safety in our homes......shame on the party who suggested it to EBAY, and shame on Ebay
executives who should know better ! ! ! ! !
Goingslow
posted on September 10, 2000 10:48:59 AM
From eBay CS: Hi ....."I understand how you feel but unfortunately when you register with ebay you agree to have your personal information given out to other ebay members.
Your only choice is to unregister if you don't agree to the policy.
If you are more comfortable with a PO Box and a voice mail these are perfectly acceptable for contact information and might give you some peace of mind."
Now that I think about this, I want to know what MY rights are. Because I really do not give ONE tinker's dxxx what ebay policy is.
But trust me on this one, CS did clairfy that this IS a done deal..For those of you just hearing of this, what did you think? That they would listen to our opinions on the subject? No no no. Ebay IS GOD. NOT!
posted on September 10, 2000 11:11:37 AM
"If you are more comfortable with a PO Box and a voice mail these are perfectly acceptable for contact information and might give you some peace of mind."
Oh yeah, this goes a long way toward breeding trust.
It's a CYA move by eBay. Some brand-new law school grad came up with this one.
How about if I just rent a PO box for all eBay sellers and we all share one phone number? An eBay sellers clearinghouse. I'll charge each seller a small fee to sort the mail and e-mail any phone requests to individual sellers.
posted on September 10, 2000 11:36:53 AM
Vargas, that's what I thought! Insane. I will not give ebay another DIME to protect my own safety/privacy. That was a direct quote to an email sent to a cs rep at ebay.
She said I could unregister. Maybe they're trying to tell me something. And it does make sense.
As opposed to ebay mumbo-jumbo, whatever that is was will be.
posted on September 10, 2000 12:29:27 PM
macandjan -- I know this is off topic, but I was amazed at your post! Who were these 5 armed people? Was this a random burglery, does this happen a lot in your neighborhood, was it someone you knew. I'm just wondering why 5 guys with guns picked your place to break into with you there! It sounds scary.
posted on September 10, 2000 12:36:59 PM
Hi, we're [email protected], one of the larger sellers on eBay.
I, too, would be VERY unhappy to have my phone number released to our bidders in EOA emails. (Not that EOA emails are going out anymore, I'm days behind in receiving mine from eBay).
We are a business, and operate from a small office space near our home. We have two phone lines (the computer line and the answering machine line). The answering machine line is the one registered with eBay.
We do NOT have a regular phone line. We do not sell other than on-line. We do not get, or accept, unsolicited phone calls. When eBayers request our contact info, they receive our answering machine line. The phone rings fairly often (a number of the calls are salesmen selling office products as well, as the answering machine line is our public number as well). Very few people leave messages: they hang up when they get the recording.
Our business is different from many of yours: we are selling used music CDs for $5 or so apiece. We are a high volume, low margin business. We CANNOT take the time to answer phone calls with questions or problems: it takes several more minutes over-the-phone than through an email.
Most importantly, I am NOT hiring employees with good telephone skills: I am hiring computer nerds who can type quickly. Customers who called and spoke to us on the phone would find us abrupt and unfriendly. We are running 2100 auctions/weekly on eBay with a fairly small staff. We do what we do very well, but we are not chatty. Most of my staff are not what you would call 'people persons'. This is not an insult, but an observation.
Yes, even though we run very inexpensive auctions we get calls from ALL over the country and ALL over the world, seemingly without regard to expenses for the call. I'm sure most of these calls are coming from workplaces, not from buyer's homes. Most of our calls DO come during normal business hours. All calls go into the answering machine. Most everyone leaves an email address to replly to anyway. We do NOT return long distance calls.
Anyway, that's what we're up to. The idea of providing our phone number (and, for God's sake, my address?!) to potential bidders is alarming.
posted on September 10, 2000 12:44:53 PM
This whole discussions rests on two areas:
1 - Feedback is meaningless - I can get a user ID with hundreds of positive feedbacks by buying less than $500 in junk.
2 - Anonymity is scary to buyers - Eventually, all eBay sellers should be required to be licensed and totally non-anonymous. If you don't want me to know who you are, I don't want to place a bid with you.
I applaud this effort, and hope that eventually all ebay sellers will be required to get background checks and credit checks, just like licensed auction sellers in many states.
Can I have your phone number? I might have a question at 3am.
Actually, I'm NOT anonymous. My eBay e-mail address is my real name.
But I don't answer my phone. It's usually answered by either a 13 year old or my husband, who is not very nice to strangers who call. That's the result of way too many telemarketing calls over the years. If you're REALLY lucky, you might get my seven year old, whose telephone skills are still fairly undeveloped. The rest of the time, you'll get no answer at all.
You see, calling me is very difficult. But I do answer e-mail pretty quickly. And I answer it under my real name.
posted on September 10, 2000 01:08:58 PM
This is so frustrating. Can't they see that the ONLY people this will affect are the honest sellers with real contact info????????
posted on September 10, 2000 01:15:06 PM
I cannot get up the stomache to list today.....I don't know what to do.
This is so wrong! It is internet business, ebay is a venue, how can they do this legally?
And how can I list knowing that I would be supporting a monster that would give out info held dear to many and info that could endanger people?
How can I not list tho? Every extra penny I make off of ebay is food, gas money, the phone bill. I have no back-up, no other plan. The other sites are failing, havent worked for me,.
posted on September 10, 2000 01:15:36 PM
Ray, the problem I have with your take on this is that this contact information has been available in the past. Any bidder who felt uncomfortable could look up the info and contact the seller already. However, with ebaY enclosing phone numbers automatically, they are encouraging more phone calls. First of all, many newbies will see the phone number there and assume that they are supposed to call, or that they have the option of either responding by email or phone. Secondly, looking up contact information, knowing that the person you are looking up will also be receiving your contact information, makes people hesitate to do it unless it's really important. Now, it will just seem like no big deal to call someone at their home, after all, the number's right there, why not use it?
Furthermore, ebaY is opening member up to a TREMENDOUS potential for abuse. Did you read my earlier post about telemarketers? People will register with bogus info, bid on and win auctions with no intentions of following through, JUST to keep a bunch of phone numbers and addresses! Telemarketing firms will be bad enough, but how about if someone decides to combine harvesting contact information with the regional search feature? How hard would it be for a burglar to search only sellers in his own region, find people who lists lots of expensive items on a regular basis, and then get their address? Not to mention the convenience of having their phone numbers to make sure they're not home. What makes you think this wouldn't happen?!
Even if there was some real value in enclosing contact information in EOA's, I would be against it because of the risk and inconvenience. However, WHAT POSSIBLE GOOD WILL ENCLOSING THIS INFORMATION DO?! I really want to hear it.
posted on September 10, 2000 04:41:52 PM
Regarding giving eBay your fax or modem number as your contact number: there have been people NARU'd for doing just such a thing. eBay claimed that the phone number was not "valid" since it's hooked up to a machine and can never be used to contact you via voice. The number eBay has for me right now is hooked up to an answering machine with the ringer turned off. But I still think this is one of the WORST ideas (and in 3 years on eBay, I've seen plenty of bad ideas!) they have ever come up with. It is making me seriously consider leaving eBay. What's next? I shudder at the possibility of them giving out street addresses! Don't their idiot lawyers think out the potential scenarios for abuse with these idiotic ideas?
posted on September 10, 2000 05:01:01 PM
On the AB, it was said that this is an ANTI-FRAUD effort, and that ANONYMITY on eBay is coming to an end.
WHO thought uP the idea of giving out PRIVATE contact info via EOAs, and WHAT purpose does this serve to prevent either fraud 0R anonymity.
I sure hope that this idea did not come from any LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY, because - it does NOTHING to control crooKs, the criminal element, but it certainly exposes honest sellers to all sortsa nasty behavior.
posted on September 10, 2000 11:20:45 PM
I'm wondering why we haven't heard a word from the OAUA about this. When the banner ad problem first became public, OAUA was all over it, and rightly so.
I feel that eBay's rape of our privacy is also a very real threat to the online auction business and I'd like to know where OAUA stands on this, and how they plan to address the problem.
Note to millicent_roberts: Great job on the Town Square thread! Give 'em hell, Milly.
posted on September 11, 2000 06:34:46 AM
You know it's one thing if a serious bidder wants to call about an auction, but what about all of those who are not serious and have access to your home phone number. I would prefer they still have to take the time to research my number, that way, in most cases, I only have serious bidders contact me. With it listed, it just makes it easier for just the casual searcher to call.
posted on September 11, 2000 06:41:06 AM
Boy, am I glad that eBay NARU'd me
Folks - remember to buy stock in the new eBay/AT&T/Every Other Communications Company merger - someone's gonna get really, really rich(er) if this zany idea goes through ...
I can just see it now:
Touch 1 to go to the eBay Tarot Reader
Touch 2 to go the eBay XXX Forum
If eBay plans to do that, NO PROBLEM, first thing I would do is: Get a new phone line, then I'll do all my transactions via phone, (Due ebay rules: Ebay says call/contact the buyer before bidding) ...Once they contact you, tell the interested bidder: Now that you found that I am a real person with a real phone number where you can contact me at any time, you can pay me right now via paypal, the buyer definitely will ask: Do I need to bid, NO "MY FRIEND" YOU DON'T, that's not necessary because if you do I will have to pay fees to eBay. ...and the buyer definitely would like to be nice with you, and if they already bidded, you can tell him retract your bidding and you don't pay shipping and handling or any bonus you want to give/offer. "SO YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO PAY ANY FEES TO EBAY". I will put my phone number like some people do in their descriptions when they advertise their business and 800 phone number. And if ebay prohibits that, BELIEVE ME there will be THOUSANDS of ways that I can give the interested buyers my #.
What I'm trying to say eBay is, this is a very very bad idea, for you and for us, besides I think a lot of people won't think twice that this is one more reason to move to yahoo! For me this idea doesn't make any sense it will only cause problems, after all the interested bidder/buyer can get our phone number if they want before and after the transaction is made. I bet that this idea came out from one of the ebay staff (lol) and not from ebay users. What about international buyers? ...While they are waking up, I'm going to sleep.
Bottom line: Ebay I think this a very ridiculous idea, but go ahead, after all that's your business, you rule, LIKE ALWAYS, but I think many millions won't have to be obligated to pay any fees at all, they would say: You want to give my phone number to everybody without asking you, NO PROBLEM. But I can do that by myself, how: I will let people to call me before bidding, then I blah, blah, blah, blah him/her and deal directly with them. That will be good for millions of sellers, and ebay will lose millions of dollars. And probably eBay would say: I don't see anybody doing it. Answer: Of course not, because you are not forcing us to do that yet. Ebay basically will be the middle man, I'll advertise there, then I deal directly with the buyer(s). Not a good idea eBay, no good.
posted on September 11, 2000 02:04:03 PMreddeer: Ah, so eBay is saying it is now looking at including the address. Another poster in this thread (sorry, forgot who) said eBay, in a phone conversation IIRC, that the phone number bit is pretty much a done deal.
Lovely, lovely. I still don't see how this is going to cut down on fraud, and while there is the claim that bidders will feel more comfortable if such information is disclosed, this bidder isn't fooled into thinking the presence of such information would really comfort anyone who thinks about it. After all, frauds could likely still find a way to post false contact information, and even if they post real information and bidders would call, wouldn't frauds be smooth enough to cut this?
Yes, it may cut a few of the more "casual" frauds out there, but would also lead to a new set of abuses. Phone number should not be released -- not the bidders', not the sellers' -- unless it is by their choice or unless there is a known problem.
Yeah, I've said most of that already, but I still can't believe the nerve of eBay, and I doubt I care to bid in this "venue" any more.
What I haven't said is that there are a couple of ironies.
One: bidders typically can't call sellers in real life auctions, but of course, real life auction houses also have the items on hand (i.e. not in the seller's hands any more). There are going to flat out be differences between real life and online auctions, but I always thought eBay struck a powerful, if somewhat flawed, compromise. Here, I see one set of flaws being slightly mitigated by a system that introduces more flaws, IMO.
Two: if eBay really is looking to marginalize or eliminate small-time sellers, as has been suggested, and go strictly with commodity and/or big ticket items, and/or get more buyers and less sellers, they may eliminate so much of their original draw as to cost themselves a hefty chunk of the bidders. Again, it is the out of the way, small-time odds-and-ends that often bring people out of the woodwork, and is the primary reason I'm here in the first place.
Isn't this sort of non-commodity stuff what gave eBay its name (i.e. popularity)? Now I realize they may think the margins thin, non-existent, or even in the red, but I wonder if even in this context, that the "classic" draws still amount to loss leaders. If true, damaging loss leaders too much could damage their intended new "core" model, whatever that is, exactly.
We don't (or at least I don't) know exactly what they're thinking, so this is a rather hypothetical exercise, but I wonder how much of a gamble that eBay considers all of this.
----
What's being done in the name of direct marketing nowadays is crazy.
The above are all just my opinions, except where I cite facts as such.
Oh, I am not dc9a320 anywhere except AW. Any others are not me.
Is eBay is changing from a world bazaar into a bizarre world?
posted on September 11, 2000 04:30:21 PM
Good question! Where does the OAUA stand on this?
I did make one more whiney post on this subject on their board. But that was it. I do know that when amazon auctions fell into a state of, shall we say, bad management, they came right out and said, "we intend to sell your information". Big deal. Like every telemarketer in the world doesn't have my phone number handy now?
I think not. So, let ebay sell us down the river and let them reap what they will. It just angers people like myself and others and someone even pondered if the ebay support team is collecting our posts to see which of us is unstable. WHich would, of course, include every member of the ebay staff, etc.
Just like I said, mo money mo money mo money.
And that don't buy NO respect. Or honest information now that we are on to THEM.
posted on September 11, 2000 04:51:22 PM
It seems to me like these many small steps may eventually lead to the death of person-to-person trading on the Internet. Including phone numbers in EOA notices means eBay expects us to act more like businesses than individuals.
Already they've stated that they want to be more business-oriented, and each new change is a step in that direction. The venue is changing, and state and federal lawmakers are sure to regulate online trading more closely in the future. We'll be required to operate as businesses, and many individual sellers will drop out, not wanting the hassle.
Let's enjoy it while we can. IMO it won't last forever.
posted on September 11, 2000 05:08:58 PMRB...I am afraid you are right...It is the beginning of the end for the small fry seller...
Just for the heck of it, I am going to break my "Ebay Fast", and list a couple items, to see if people actually are calling...I have voive mail and phone turned off anyway, because with my pottery work, I cannot just drop everything to pick up the phone...And I am NOT about to return calls...Will be intyeresting how many NEGS I get for NOT returning phone calls to INDIA, TAIWAN, ITALY...AUSTRALIA..
******************** Shosh http://www.oldandsold.com/cgi-bin/auction.cgi?justdisp&Rifkah
posted on September 11, 2000 05:58:30 PM
Ebay just flipped......
According to their reply to my letter, if someone contacts me and I was NOT made aware that such contact was to happen, I should CONTACT SAFE HARBOR????(paragraph #5) HELLO??????
Hello,
Thank you for writing to eBay Customer Support. I hope that I can be of
some assistance.
1)When registering, all members provide their contact information with the
understanding that this information will not be sold or provided to any
outside party. The only way we will make any registered member's
contact information available to any other registered member is by
sending it via email per automated request through the eBay site.
2)When a request of this type is made, we send the contact information for
both members to each email address, meaning the requester's information
is sent to you and your information is sent to them. Please note that
we never give out a member's street address in these requests.
3)If you are not aware of a reason why this request may have been made,
you may want to contact the member and ask why they made this request.
Members sometimes make User Information Requests on new members who have
no prior eBay history (no feedback), for shipping purposes or a member
may be having a difficult time reaching you by email and wanted to call
you instead.
4)If you are uncomfortable with the current eBay policy requirement that
all users provide and keep current your contact information, you may
want to provide a valid voice mail phone number or work number in place
of your home telephone number. Both options are acceptable as contact
information.
5)I would like to assure you that making a request for contact information
that is used for purposes unrelated to eBay business, or if the
information is published anywhere online or offline, or if the
information has been obtained for the purposes of harassment, is in
violation of eBay's rules. If this should occur, please immediately
send documentation of the inappropriate use of your contact information
to Safe Harbor, our investigations group, at the email address below and
they will investigate the incident.
posted on September 11, 2000 06:06:23 PM
Huh? You mean they just sent that reply now? I take it they mean to change this response when they start providing phone numbers and maybe addresses in the EOA.
Read it again, though, and note how they seem to "get it" (i.e. they respect personal information a lot more) in that letter, but definitely don't get it now.
[ Edited to add the parenthetic. ]
[ edited by dc9a320 on Sep 11, 2000 06:08 PM ]
