posted on September 11, 2000 06:58:10 PM new
It's looking more and more like this idea is the brainstorm of someone who was promoted from server maintenance to product development. I wondered if anyone in senior management is bright enough to see the possible implications this proposal could have? I can guarantee you, that the first time an Ebay seller suffers physical, emotional or finacial harm as a result of Ebay making known their unlisted number, the sudden shift of weight of trial lawyers rushing to California to get a piece of the action will cause the Golden State to sink a few more feet below sea level.
The light at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be an oncoming train.
posted on September 11, 2000 07:01:12 PM new
Oh well, I doubt that many bidders will call their sellers anymore than they do now.
I know I like using e-mail and if I can't get an answer to that, then why waste a phone call? Unless item was paid for and not sent.
I don't think things will change very much, but of course this is just another issue for sellers to fret over. LOL
[ edited by twelvepole on Sep 11, 2000 07:02 PM ]
posted on September 11, 2000 07:07:22 PM new
Hello,
Lets be realistic here. I've read through this stuff on here and as usual its hard to discern fact/fiction. But what is SO bad about having a phone number out there.
We are powersellers. Over 20,000 completed transactions. Every single one of our ad's has our phone number and address. We are a legit business and eBays a great venue of sales.
Look at logic. If you seller or buyer went to Walmart, bought a vacuum and it was hosed (no pun intended) you would bring it back for a replacement or refund. If they said "nope" you'd turn into a cyclonic Fantom Fury (pun intended). If you went to a garage sale and bought a rare/collectible $100 Bronze statue of Emit Otter only to find what you really got was Oscar from Sesame Street you'd be back over in someones face or into local court.
Every listing we post has the phone number in the ad and cant say as we've had alot of phone calls at all. Sure... If your an individual you dont want your phone ringing at 3 AM in the morning. Turn it off when going to bed. Use an answering machine. If your a volume seller then whats the big deal? If your an individual I assume your answering service announces itself... "Hello... Welcome To The R U Wrong Family... We are not able to get to the phone.... blah".
Does it make a change in people getting hosed? I dont see how. We have very little fraud occur via our buyers. Occassional bounced check or declined credit card. An Occassional rage feeder... bout it.
While I dont quite see how a phone call makes a difference in fraud if it helps do it. If they get an answering machine at least they know they got something. If they speak with you... As a business, this is good, loyal clientel are at a premium on the internet. As an individual you might gain a friend. Its their dime?????
While it might seem bad bad bad in reality we have found it as good good good. We have had many bidders say they appreciate the fact we do want to KNOW them and we clearly give them everything they need to complete their transactions. 95% payment rate constant. Our phone hardly ever rings.
If it helps consumers avoid being taken and it helps eBay remove fraud sellers/bidders then thats good for all the good bidders (the majority) and all the good sellers (the majority). Remove the bad ones on both sides and its better for bidders, sellers, for us, for you. Bad sellers and consumer issues are coming to bare more and more and will continue to escalate and ANY measures to prevent or slow it should be applauded.
Signed: WhyNot!
posted on September 11, 2000 07:33:26 PM new
Whynot said:
"... If your an individual you dont want your phone ringing at 3 AM in the morning. Turn it off when going to bed."
I'll tell you whynot... some people have kids who are out and might need to call. They have relatives that are elderly and might need help in the night. There are all kinds of reasons for people to leave their phones ON and not want to be troubled in the middle of the night unless it's an emergency!
I used to be in the mail order business with my phone number published all over the place. I got calls from Australia at 3am and then there was the ever-popular 5am from Japan. That happened about once a week or so... besides MANY calls at 10 and 11 pm and I had a $300+ per month phone bill too returning all of the calls. Nope, nope, nope... when I took my business to ebaY I put an end to all that and I don't want to go back... there is no need. It will NOT stop fraud! It won't! It' won't really even slow it down!!!
Now over the past 3+ years at ebaY, I've spoken with maybe 30 customers on the phone. Sometimes it's necessary, and I don't mind, and I'll gladly give them my phone number IF THERE IS A REASON TO DO SO!
I've also had ONE buyer who got a neg from me call me to cuss me out. See, she told me she was in the hospital and could not pay for the item. But she'd bid on $12,000 worth of stuff while she was supposedly in the hospital... I asked her about that and she told me that it was her roommate using her account. Her roommate bought exactly the same things she did, but it seems her roommate could not pay either. Anyway, I gave her a neg and she called me up and was very inventive in the names she called me for giving her a neg that said something like "buyer failed to pay for item, continues to bid".
She was later NARU'd...
If my phone number were available in email, any one of my NPB's could start telephone harassment and I would never have a clue who it was. At least now you know who requests your info~!
posted on September 11, 2000 07:34:38 PM new
It's all well and good to say "oh this is business. Turn the phone ringer off when you go to bed."
In reality, it's not that simple. Ebay was founded as a person to person auction site --little guys selling their stuff and collectables. A lot of little guys can't simply turn off the ringer at any time of day or night. Some little guys have elderly or sick relatives -- that call in the night could be a life or death call for help.
I know a number of people who sell on eBay for fun -- they enjoy getting to know people as e-mail "penpals." I know others who sell on eBay to supplement the income from "day jobs."
These aren't "businesspeople" and can't really be expected to like being treated like WalMart.
I think eBay has lost sight of what made it unique. It's barreling toward b2b so fast, it can't see what it's losing.
posted on September 11, 2000 07:38:15 PM new
For me it's the "little guys" that bring the fun to eBay.....with their unique "junque" (read:treasures) to sell...Without that type of seller, there won't be much left to hold my interest (or to get my $$$)
posted on September 11, 2000 07:44:00 PM new
Once again I see "some" people fail to see that this is not just a SELLER issue.
I have buyers who value their anonymity & I doubt very much they'll appreciate finding out that their phone # is posted on every last EOA email that goes out, not to mention their street address.
I've dealt with buyers who send me nothing more than a "nickname" such as "whitecrow", or use initials instead of first & last names. This week I sent an item to a Hollywood celeb who also didn't send her first name hoping I wouldn't recognize her last name. [hard to miss with the Beverly Hills addy]
The point is, some of these buyers will end up being seriously pissed if eBay rolls this out without letting them know in advance.
posted on September 11, 2000 10:01:06 PM new
Whynot! WhyNot! LoL.
I dont quite see where publication of such information would curb fraud either. All I am saying if it does, by something we are not thinking of then by all means we are in favor.
True... Some buyers might get upset. You would find however every buyer would much rather have a phone number of ther seller.
We run, dunno, 400 auctions a week at eBay. Our phone number and then some is in every ad and we might get 5-6 calls a week and thats to pay us by credit card for those scared of web credit card joints. How bout' that Western Union deal huh? Murphys law! It will happen.
I hear alot of this eBay is llosing focus stuff, the focus folks is the same as anyone elses, make as much money as they can while hopefully avoiding problems.
As I noted... I am not quite sure where the fraud equation comes in w/ phone numbers. We do however agree to full disclosure of any pertinent information. People put classifieds in papers too w/ phone numbers. The internet reaches foreign lands and far away places and as such "rights" become more and more an issue and fraud continues its escalation.
We've had people who want give us little to no info as they are scared of their personal information getting out there. Its too late for fear first off. For $50 - $75 you can get more information on someone than you ever even thought existed. Even the stupid "shoppers club" cards replacing coupons... Read the fine print. Most will sell your data. Sad. I agree. Please dont hit me.
What we DO agree with is that bad sellers need be actively policed in some way and bad consumers need be removed and stay removed somehow. No, dont see how phone numbers effect that.
What I am saying is if yu think having your phone number hanging out at ebay is a bad thing we have not had any problems and very few calls. Thats all. To us, we are already doing this and have had no problems so why would we not say others should to?
No?
I understand and respect your worries of privacy but realize the web is NOT private, its a public resource as a whole (I guess). The web will NEVER be private. I've had places who said they never ever sell your information doing what? Selling your information. How many people pursue it? Very very few. One popular payment type service sold ours but not going to get into that.
Heck... Just logging unto the web itself. The day we installed a firewall on systems we found in about 45 minutes of avg. surfage 68 different sites were tracking via cookies.
Nifty.
Americans value their privacy and its going away. Heck on California Highways they have cameras that are digitally enhanced taking photos of cars, plates, driver, passenger etc with AMAZING quality. To what purpose? They dont quite say. You have the high speed ISP services hiring external firms to WATCH your actions LIVE and then some.
I saw some crazy thing on TV about miniature cameras/audio on the size of a top of a pin.
So wheres it all going? no idea.
But, we have no issue with phone numbers nor do we see how it can benefit things, but if it does, it has our vote.
Signed: WhyNot!
posted on September 11, 2000 10:46:56 PM new
Don't you just love it when people throw "We are Power Sellers" into their posts?
I guess when we read that we're supposed to oooh and aaah or maybe stand back and give the POWER SELLER (trumpets, please!) all the room he/she needs to pontificate to us.
Is it a requirement of the Power Seller program that participants condescend to ordinary sellers? Is it mandatory that they come to a thread 8 pages long -- a thread loaded with really good points, heartfelt opinions and hard, indisputable facts -- and begin their post with: Lets be realistic here. I've read through this stuff on here and as usual its hard to discern fact/fiction.
posted on September 11, 2000 10:59:59 PM new
Ho Hummm... The PowerSeller thing again.....
I'm a PowerSeller. I'm a 'Charter Member' of the PowerSeller program, according to the letter I have here from Pierre... BIG DEAL!
PowerSeller is an impotent program based on sales volume alone. Sorry, that means little to nothing to anyone except you and ebaY.
I'll tell you what DOES matter to everyone...
Good customer service.
Fair policies.
A credible return policy.
Secure packing and shipping
Polite and timely email
Accurate and thorough descriptions
Quality goods with a high rate of sell-through (not filling the site with unwanted junk)
Real Auctions (with a real starting price, not a retail one)
If you do all this and sell $500 a month, you are a bigger asset to ebaY and everyone else than if you sell $5000 or $50,000 a month and piss your customers off.
(not saying that whynot is not a good seller, not at all... just a temporary derail for a quick PowerSeller rant)
posted on September 11, 2000 11:29:09 PM new
Oh, and just for the record, I'm a power seller too. Big deal is right.
As far as I can make out this is eBay's way of tossing the fraud complainers a bone, nothing more, nothing less. As others have already stated a zillion times over, phone numbers can already be had via the sellers/buyers contact info.
I have customers that get their panties in a bunch at the mere thought of sending their "private" info via email. Some have flat out refused. Now eBay wants to add their phone numbers on every EOA email? Oh ya, that's going to go over real well.
eBay can be so clueless it's scary at times.
On one hand they offer a verification icon so that buyers know you are who you say you are, and on the other hand they only offer it to U.S. users. Isn't that just swell.
eBay needs to pull their heads out of their arses & breathe some clean air for a change.
Maybe then they'll clue in to just how moronic some of these new ideas are?
posted on September 11, 2000 11:53:28 PM new
And for those of you that haven't read the latest comments by the Pink on the Town Square thread, here they are.
.................................
Dear eBay community:
Thank you very much for your wonderful participation. Currently we are still gathering your input on this matter.
All of you have some really good thoughts on this initiative. We will consider your input
carefully when we evaluate the feasibility of this proposal.
One thing is clear to us that many of you are concerned about giving out primary phone
numbers. It is clear to us telephone number should be not enclosed on EOAs - we will definitely take that into consideration!
Thanks for your wonderful input.
Vicki Product Marketing
Hi:
Including "street address" was not in the proposal. Sorry if you are confused.
Vicki
................................
Ya, "someone" is confused allrighty. Vicki is the one that tossed the lame brain idea of adding the "street address" to the discussion.
I hope like hell this is one time that eBay listens to the "community".
I bet you this idea came from one of the ebay staffers, and soon approved by another ebay staffer, and not by concerned members (I wouldn't be surprised).
The difference between this board and eBay's board is that here you can really say anything you want and think, basically the true. But, if you leave these messages and opinions on eBay boards sooner or later you'll be suspended with basically no explanation.
So, if I'm ebay I wouldn't never ask my members about this new idea in my own boards, why? Because everybody is afraid of telling the true, because they know they will face suspension if they say the negative side of this idea, so members will have no other option than say: Hey ebay it's ok with me!, ebay no problem with me!, ebay you are the man!, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone says: Please ebay do that! I really love your idea!. So at the end nobody gets suspended, BUT ebay is not getting the real point and all the problems that will bring to them and us, so please ebay think about it and seek for real opinions.
* If you are a small seller and work from home DON'T WORRY, because eBay will never target to work only with Power Sellers and/or real businesses AT LEAST NOT FOR NOW because businesses and/or real Power Sellers conforms only a 3% of the sellers community on ebay, the other 97% is conformed by regular people LIKE YOU who works from home and by using a single phone line. AND, if ebay decides to work only with that 3%, No problem, but that would be the REALLY END of ebay, why? Because if YOU and I go to www.EBAY.com it's because we want to deal with a real person like you or like me, not with an institution.
So ebay that's up to you, but if you want real opinions I suggest not to ask your members for their opinions in your own forums, because you'll not get a real opinion and/or real suggestion, of course unless your change your policy of suspending or NARUing people for what they think, especially when you want real opinions and they are trying to help, because if ebay wins absolutely they win too.
posted on September 12, 2000 08:37:05 AM newreddeer: Well, this buyer is ticked about the phone number thing. It is a bad idea all around, and that includes both the privacy and the probably-won't-cut-fraud parts. Added to all the rest of eBay's actions the past few months, I'm ready to throw in the towel and give up bidding on eBay. I'm glad to see they seem to be reconsidering the phone number thing.
whynot: I have no illusion that the Internet is truly private, and I don't even necessarily think it should be totally private, but my point is that I'm not looking for the companies on it to make it easier for direct marketers to accumulate massive amounts of information on me either, so I fight back.
Same thing offline. Sure, my basic information and more is already out there, but to a large extent, direct marketers still want and/or need to have regular stores sell out their customers, on a regular basis, to get the information (or deeper information), and while I still might start clicking on banner ads if they get rid of the tracking (now, I just block them wholesale), I will never want or use telemarketing or junk mail, so again, I'll do what I can to foil their efforts on selling information about me.
There are growing concerns that as more of this information comes together (like DoubleClick tried to do earlier this year), that this information could be abused in various ways, (beyond "just" the harrassment-like use with telemarketing, of course ).
But it is the direct marketers' junk and how other companies sell out their customers to direct marketers that brought me out to talk about the connections, when appropriate. I haven't met a person yet that wouldn't rather be rid of telemarketing calls, and the vast majority don't want bulk mail either, calling it junk, and I doubt there's more than a handful of people that like spam, so I reveal the collection mechanisms that the direct marketers would obviously rather remain hidden.
While the EOA telephone number thing isn't really about direct marketers (unless a seller gives you up to them), the issue is still similar. Most people don't want their phone number to be more commonly distributed, whether or not it's already out there.
If it's not already out there, then they don't want it out there. If it is already out there, that does not imply they are comfortable with it being spread around more. This case is more about how much effort someone would have to go to get it. The more companies like eBay spread it around in a casual fashion, the easier it is to get ahold of.
It's not a titanic-sized big deal, but I'm just sick of companies feeling they have the right to do almost anything with our information that they want.
The more I hear, the more disgusted I get, so I'm not about to give in when I've already gotten so much of it out of my life. I'm off on a tangent now, but ultimately, I'm glad to see eBay seems to be waking back up to it. Maybe the eBay employee who wrote the letter to Shoshanah should be promoted.
The proof will be in the action (or in this case, not taking an action).
Yes, whynot, it's probably a low-volume issue, but it is potentially aggravating enough, and I think people still want the choice of how their own information is used, of what should be given out when. Until such time as a bidder goes NPB or a seller isn't forthcoming with the item, that should be enough.
IMO, anyway. Sorry for the length.
----
What's being done in the name of direct marketing nowadays is crazy.
The above are all just my opinions, except where I cite facts as such.
Oh, I am not dc9a320 anywhere except AW. Any others are not me.
Is eBay is changing from a world bazaar into a bizarre world?
[ Edited to add "aggravating" clause to last long paragraph. ]
[ edited by dc9a320 on Sep 12, 2000 08:38 AM ]
posted on September 12, 2000 10:24:37 AM new
I talked to ebaY about the calling sellers and contact info issue today. Here's what they said.
They are 99% (1% being only because they have not made a final decision) sure that they are NOT going to include any phone numbers in the EOA notices.
When they made that post on the Town Square, they simply included all of the components of the contact information that is currently provided when you request contact information. Supplying the phone number was never part of a plan, it's just a component of the request contact information feature, so it was mentioned as an option.
The Fraud Prevention statement was a separate thing that we connected to the EOA notice thing and they are not connected. What they were trying to convey in the Fraud Prevention Statement on the Announcement Board was that if you feel 'iffy' about a transaction, one way to get more information is to pick up the phone and make a call. That's not a singular method, but just one of many. They are not trying to encourage that to happen in 'normal' situations...
And they admit that it was not communicated well...
posted on September 12, 2000 10:46:41 AM newWhat they were trying to convey in the Fraud Prevention Statement on the Announcement Board was that if you feel 'iffy' about a transaction, one way to get more information is to pick up the phone and make a call. That's not a singular method, but just one of many.
That sounds just fine by me. My phone number is in my contact information, and is already available to any registered eBay user. And personally I think it is perfectly legitimate for a potential bidder to call me on the phone if they have a question about something I am selling and don't feel comfortable dealing strictly via e-mail. Perhaps they simply want to make sure that the number I have provided in my contact info is legitimate and that they would be able to get ahold of me if they bid and something went wrong with the transaction. Do I want to besieged with nuisance calls at all hours of the day and night? Of course not. But I sincerely doubt that would actually happen, and I have no problem with eBay telling bidders that they should CONSIDER calling a seller if something about an auction makes them uncomfortable.
Just my $0.02.
Regards,
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 12, 2000 10:47:37 AM newSupplying the phone number was never part of a plan, it's just a component of the request contact information feature, so it was mentioned as an option.
Ya, and if you believe that, I've got some prime beachfront property for sale, up here in the Tundra.
It seems to me that it was most definitely part of a plan, but after the posts on the TS & here, eBay decided to rethink that "plan".
posted on September 12, 2000 10:51:32 AM new
Okay, that does sound a lot better. Whether they communicated poorly before or just now realized the present/potential future backlash, at least they are looking to clarify it, assuming they'll clarify this in the AB sometime soon.
I still wonder what "We are working on changes that will allow us to remove anonymity on eBay" means, as in the absense of further description, that could mean a whole lot of things. That statement only added to the feeling that eBay was going to give phone numbers in the EOA.
Anything else still left from the original notice that is unclear?
I don't know, though. Why go through the trouble of writing the original announcement like it was a new plan, put in such strong language (poorly written or written as intended), if that part wasn't really changing? Okay, maybe it's just listing something that is -- and will remain -- available.
I still think the main recommendation should be to email if there are questions, unless the seller willingly lists a phone number in the auction or through email.
posted on September 12, 2000 10:57:08 AM new
Forgot to add... I also won't believe eBay has dropped this until it is clear they have. I too question whether it was just poor communication (if so, it was one of the worst cases I've seen in awhile).
So... if they do drop the part(s) that has generated the most controversy (which would be good, IMO), have we missed anything else in their plan that should have been talked about?
The vague "remove anonymity" statement is still a big question mark, for one.
[ Edited to drop the .sig ]
[ edited by dc9a320 on Sep 12, 2000 11:00 AM ]
posted on September 12, 2000 11:09:42 AM new
I must agree. 1% is yet to be determined, and when it is, I might be persuaded to list there again. But only when the AB has removed the comments about how we are ALL crooks in the eyes of potential bidders.
Another canned email about privacy after my contact info was pulled on Saturday for no apparent reason. I wonder how some of these "employees from support" ever landed a job anywhere, much less taking care of people's concerns.
Get real!
posted on September 12, 2000 11:33:39 AM new
Thanks for your opinion, Barry. As someone once said in a recent thread about X-Men comic books, "I'll be sure to give your comments all the consideration they deserve."
posted on September 12, 2000 11:44:58 AM new
Corroborating ToyRanch's info- OAUA is receiving the same info from eBay- this time in writing, basically saying that:
they would not include phone numbers in the EOA notices if they decide to
share contact information with the high bidder and the seller, and
they are not encouraging buyers to contact sellers every time they are going to bid, only if they have a concern about the listing or the seller (e.g. a seller with low feedback selling a very high priced item).
They intend to clarify via an update to the Announcement board later today.
Don't know how much is miscommunication, or things taken out of context, and how much is backing away from a bad idea. Probably a bit of each. Bottom line, I think, is that they do sometimes float ideas, and your input on the various boards can make a difference.
posted on September 12, 2000 12:05:54 PM new
Personally, I like buying from the "little sellers" - people like myself. Seems like you can find really unique and interesting items up for sale. Myself, when I see an auction by one of these "power sellers" and am bombarded by all the fancy background, etc., I usually hit the "Back" button real quick - if I wanted to buy from one of these dealers I'd just go down the road to one of the antique stores and do my business locally. I have a job and sell on eBay occasionally for extra spending money and I'm more apt to support one of my own rather than some dealer. Yeah, eBay may be "rethinking" this issue of not publishing our phone #, but what's next? Social security number?
posted on September 12, 2000 12:17:59 PM new
Bobbi355 ..... Don't let the comments from a "few" power sellers on these boards scare you away. I'm a PS [small time chump change PS]
and don't use "fancy backgrounds etc." nor do I own an antique store. I'm just a small potatotes seller who happens to move more than 2 G a month on eBay.
posted on September 12, 2000 02:12:14 PM newreddeer and mag-guy...You are the nicest PS I have ever known...
On the other hand, there are some pretty scary TOS on some PS pages out there!...How in the world did they manage...Certainly NOT from their "subtle" TOS or HUMILITY...
******************** Shosh http://www.oldandsold.com/cgi-bin/auction.cgi?justdisp&Rifkah
It borders on LUNACY...
[ edited by twelvepole on Sep 11, 2000 07:02 PM ]
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