posted on September 15, 2000 10:08:42 PM
I have been so snowed under by work lately that I have asked my grandma, at no extra charge, to fill in the 2 page customs export clearance application and fax it to customs.
I charge her next to nothing for rent, and she doesn't even appreciate the ALMOST US$4.00 per hour I'm paying her. It's not quite $4.00 because I charge her a nominal amount for electricity she uses in the laundry. I should make her use a 25W light but she reckons it's too dark in there, personally I find it romantic working by the ample moonlight which comes in through the large window.
Can you believe the ungrateful old b%^&# is complaining that an extra 10 minutes of her life is being waisted. For all the money I pay her you'd think she could throw in a little effort to fill in a customs form.
Every time I get my Porsche serviced, the dealer throws in delivery and even picks me up and drops me off
And that's got nothing to do with the money I spend, it's the principle.
posted on September 16, 2000 04:47:58 AM
Lets think about this for a minute..
Do you think store owners could do this? You take an item to the register and it has a price tag of $5.00 and the seller says your total comes to 10.70 explaining that they put alot of time into purchasing it, tagging it, inventoried it, and setting it out on the store shelf so they want a $5 handling fee above the originallly marked $5 tag.
These fees are added into the selling price of the item along with utilities, advertising, space rent, mailing costs, employee pay, printing, labels, computer office supplies, taxes (sale tax/ irs tax). Then the owners have to add in their personal expenses mortgage, utilities, travel, car, gas, so on and so on.
So where am I going with all this....Your selling price should include both what you want out of your item and expenses.pictures, camera, computer, internet, inventory, paper, ink, etc etc etc. It should also portray reflection of at least part of your personal expenses depending if you do this full time or part time. IT SHOULD ALSO INCLUDE YOUR TIME!
If you are not getting enough for your items you need to sell something else because you are selling something that isnt making enough income and is not worth your time. You can quite altogether selling on auctions altogether. Find a cheaper means of getting what you are selling and dont add time doing things that arnt necessary.
Buy the proper packing materials (which would be passed on) that the item can be quickly wrapped and dropped into a box with stuffing or whatever. Packing the WRONG way eats alot of your tiem. Try to sell like items....keep the pictures on your host (AW) and keep descriptions in a word processor. When you get the exact same itm everything is ready to load and copy/paste.
But the most important thing you have to remember is that your are running a business selling items and THAT DOES TAKE TIME. If you dont want to put in the time get another job with a boss or stop auctioning!!!!
posted on September 16, 2000 06:13:55 AM
IMHO $6.95 for s/h for a 2 oz. first class envelope amounts to grand larceny. I wouldn't pay it. However, the seller has a right to charge this amount, just as long as it is CLEARLY listed in the TOS. Something along the lines of:
Postage will be 70 cents, Handling charge of 6.25. Please send $6.95 in addition to your bid, insurance will be an additional 85 cents.
posted on September 16, 2000 06:54:46 AM
Hamburgler, next time you buy something from my store, you are welcome to come and pick it up.
Postage and handling IS A "'reflection of at least part of my personal expenses " My expenses when packaged are greatly increased, my granny needs to eat too.
You and london4 don't happen to work for eBay as 'AntiFeeAvoidancePropogandaPerpetuators ' by any chance?
How small minded can some people be, failing to recognise a legitimate expense, including labour, in preparing an item for postage.
london4 wrote that he/she would like to see in "TOS. Something along the lines of: Postage will be 70 cents, Handling charge of 6.25. Please send $6.95 in addition to your bid, insurance will be an additional 85 cents.
Don't you also want to see how much it cost me for all items relating directly to delivery ie. printer ink, phone call, emails, wraping paper, packing tape, liquid paper, fragile stickers, cardboard, foam, bubble wrap, petrol, texta, pen, labour, sharp blades, depreciation & wear and tear on my car, packing table, real estate, auto registration, business insurance, health insurance, window cleaner, land tax, council rates, electricity, gas, security service, motivational tapes, headache tablets, etc etc etc etc etc etc.
If the only legitimate expense you can see is a 10c envelope then you are a few cookies short of the jar.
posted on September 16, 2000 08:32:19 AM
Whew! I just joined AW in oder to reply to this thread. This post is something of a test message. <p>
Boy, am I glad I don't intend to use AW for uploading my auctions. Are most of you using AW for imagehosting, uploading auction items, etc? Have you noticed that you give away all your copyrights in the process? <P>
Didn't even want to join any other auction sites, either, but that didn't seem to be an option. So now I'm a member of imandi and I've never heard of it before. Too funny.<br> CG
posted on September 16, 2000 08:39:31 AM
Boy, am I glad I don't intend to use AW for uploading my auctions. Are most of you using AW for imagehosting, uploading auction items, etc? Have you noticed that you give away all your copyrights in the process? <P>
=================
This isn't exactly on-topic, but I can't resist replying anyway. Can you point us to someplace on AW where we can read this for ourselves? Somehow, I think you've misunderstood or misinterpreted the rules. Thanks.
posted on September 16, 2000 08:54:34 AM
Okay, now down to the business at hand. As a Buyer I deeply resent handling fees and pass those auctions, as well as *Fixed Shippig* right on by. Occasionally, if I really want an item and the handling fee is both spelled out and low ($1.00), I'll go ahead and bid. As a Seller I have both more respect for my bidders than to lie to them by shifting a portion of my revenues into some hazy category called handling fees, and more respect for myself as well.
Less: EXPENSES
such as:
Advertising
Office Supplies
Office Equipment
Postage
Fees
Auto Expenses
Professional Fees
Labor
etc.
Equals: NET PROFIT
In general, if you're a Sole Proprietor (that is, not incorporated) -- and this model basically includes hobby Sellers whether they report income and deduct expenses or not, your Net Profit IS your remuneration, your *salary* for doing the labor of finding the items, getting them listed, dealing with bidders, doing the packing and shipping, etc.
Get it?
I just think it's inappopriate for Sellers to basically con Bidders with a low start bid when the REAL cost to them is hidden in the handling fees, and too often handling fee amounts are hidden as well. It's a lie.
posted on September 16, 2000 09:06:27 AM
Sonsie-- Yes it is OT (and I'm sorry to have introduced it), but the business about granting AW something like *universal, irrevocable, perpetual* (may not be the correct language, but certainly the gist) rights of your content including "copyright and publicity rights" was very clear in the terms of service that I just agreed to in order to register.
What bothered me the most (other than the all-encompassing nature of it and the distasteful and IMO inappropriate provision itself, of course) was that it wasn't really that clear -- at least to me -- that it applied ONLY to those things for which you use AW to create and upload. For all I know, I've just signed away my rights to the stuff I do myself.
Equally interesting is that after seeing your post I went and looked for a place where I could review the terms and give you a link, and I can't seem to find anything remotely near it. Perhaps I just didn't look hard enough, but I saw nothing on the Site Map, for example. I passed up an opportunity to *view a printable version* of the terms, and now I guess I can't ever see them again. I even tried to go thru part of the registration process again, but of course that didn't work. They already know who I am <g>.
posted on September 16, 2000 09:19:46 AM
Funny how this favorite topic seems to get posters frothing at the mouth. And most of those posters are other sellers telling me how to run my business, or that I am in the wrong business because I'm not making a profit, or that I'm committing larceny. Ex-CUSE me!
Handling fees are a part of (nearly) every mail-order business. Don't compare online auctions to retail sales. That is like apples and oranges. Amazon.com charges a handling fee to ship books, and they don't even say so in their ads. My terms are plainly spelled out in the auction. If you don't like it, don't bid.
Dave_m, I don't think you can speak for my customers, and you're not really in a position to criticize my business philosophy of "a good product at a fair price." If someone wants to buy from me, they can pay the price. That's very simple. I'm not going to give my products away, and I am not going to work for free. I welcome you to use any business model that works for you. I agree that customers want to pay less, but I have found that most are willing to pay what I consider to be a fair price. Go to any office superstore and you will find the same software I sell. Mine, with all the fees included, is half the price.
posted on September 16, 2000 09:29:23 AM
Seems to me that the most commonly used argument against handling fees is that they should be included in your selling price, rather than added to the shipping charges. What it seems that everyone is forgetting when they make this argument is that this is an auction, not a retail store. Yes, retail stores add these costs to the price of an item...but then again, they know exactly what the item is going to sell for! In an auction, you don't know what the selling price is going to be, so how do you add your costs to an unknown selling price? In an auction, the only fixed price you can add it to is the shipping charges. If you are suggesting that you have an opening bid of the price you want for the item + your costs then it seems to me that you should only sell it for the opening bid. After all, if you sell it for more than the opening bid, which includes costs and profit, then aren't you gouging the buyer??
posted on September 16, 2000 09:46:09 AM
I wonder....where is all your proof that handling fees are nothing more than extra profit? Where is your proof....no takers...thought so...nothing but whiners.
And how many of you whiners have sent extra payment to the seller when you find out the shipping was more than he charged you....show of hands...thought so...hypocrites also....nothing worse than whiny hypocrites
You know their are quite a few ways to cut down on your packing materials expenses. I am about to start my 4th year selling on eBay and in all that time about my biggest packing expense is Clear Tape because I haven't figured out how to get it free yet.
Peanuts/Popcorn and Bubblewrap
You know how much your Post Office gets and throws away everyday? Since you are there anyways to mail stuff ask them to save it for you. My Post Office loves it because it is less trash for them to dispose off, they just fill boxes with it so it is also a source of Boxes for me. I also buy popcorn in those big 4' Bags, I found a company that will deliver it free if I buy 10 bags. Costs me 10.00 a bag, I sell it to others who sell on eBay for 13.00 a bag. It's a Deal for them because they usually pay 15-18.00 for a single bag. Since I get a bunch free (from other sources) I usually only use 1-2 bags (sometimes none~!) from every ten and make a profit. Same thing with Bubblewrap, I buy bulk, sell small rolls and get mine for free.
Another friend I have went by a local Electronics store and asked if he could leave a Plastic Trash Can and if they put their peanuts in it he would empty it. Now he has to leave Trash bags that they empty the trash can into and he gets so much he gives it away. Another friend did the same thing at his Local Dump and it was so popular (and so much was left) it is now a regular feature with a bunch of people doing it.
A little bit of creativity can save you a bunch of $$$$$.
posted on September 16, 2000 11:59:54 AM
Again, I think a lot of the problem is that we are using the same terms only they have different meanings. Just as the word shipping can mean anything from postage alone to postage, handling, ect., depending on who is talking...now handling appears to have an even bigger variety of meanings.
I think the typical handling charge is for packing materials, and for some sellers, the time they use to pack/drive to PO. Now we have sellers who think that handling should cover their time for every aspect of selling online (time it took to find item, clean it, research it, photograph it, etc.). No wonder buyers are hostile about shipping charges.
Someone esle said it well...online auctions are about GOODS, not service. Yes, you do provide a service in getting the item to the buyer, but buyers aren't going to eBay to bid on getting great service...they want stuff. If your profit margin is so low that you feel you need to charge buyers after the auction for every paperclip your business uses, then there is something wrong.
And I am tired of hearing that if I don't gouge my buyers for shipping that I am not serious about selling. $6.95 for mailing a two ounce package (whopping 55 cents in postage) is nothing short of outgrageous. And I know there are a lot of people out there that suggest that all a buyer should really look at is the final price (item plus s/h). Well, sorry, but even if the final price were still a good deal, you won't find me bidding. I refuse to deal with anyone who charges unreasonable handling charges - why would I expect that same seller to suddenly become reasonble should a problem arise??
Oh, and Mark090, I have sent money to sellers when I was undercharged on shipping. But even if I hadn't, it still wouldn't make me one of those "whiny hypocrites" you are worried about. It is the seller's job to figure out what the postage costs are and it's not all that hard. I use a scale and take a print out with me (from the USPS web site with all zip, weight, postage cost), never had a problem.
posted on September 16, 2000 11:59:59 AM
Was this the license you were referring to?
================
The License You Grant to Us. You agree to grant us a non-exclusive, worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, sublicenseable (through multiple tiers) right to exercise the copyright and publicity rights (but no other rights) you have in your information, in any media now known or not currently known, for the purpose of offering our services.
================
I'm not going to worry about this too much. I'm granting AW a nonexclusive right to exercise my copyright and publicity rights to my INFORMATION that I have posted via AW...not to the product[s] I sell or make...for the purpose of publicizing their services.
For example, if I've written a particularly spiffy ad for something, they can use it to advertise the site. But they can't allow others to copy it, nor can they use it to sell a similar item.
Words (and pictures) that are used to sell items via online auctions aren't exactly priceless pearls of literature or art, and are virtually worthless EXCEPT in that sales venue for that item at that time. I can think of lots of other things to worry about...this doesn't gripe me much at all.
BTW, I found this at the Site Map, under Services (I think). It's a clickable link, pretty easy to spot, if you want to check it out for yourself.
posted on September 16, 2000 01:13:15 PM
The problem I see with putting all your costs and time in the opening bid, is then you have to pay ebay fees for that bid amount. That is paid even if it doesn't sell.
Or it makes the bid to high and no one looks.
That's why comparing the grocery store, where all their costs are in the item price is not a very good comparison.
I do a little of both. Some of it goes into the opening bid, some as a shipping cost. It works well for me.
But again, I am amazed that "buyers" find it acceptable to pay "hidden fees" in an opening bid, but not stated handling fees.
posted on September 16, 2000 01:14:04 PM
"$6.95 S&H for a 2-ounce item sent in an envelope as First Class mail is not exorbitant IMHO. "
- such is why so many will not bid on items with unspecified s&h.
6.95 to pack and ship a fragile antigue would be cheap but to stuff and address an envelope is exorbitant.
As a professional ebay seller you certainly must account for all your time and expenses, but you are competing in a very open market with all manner of others including hobby sellers. S&H is certainly a major expense for any professional ebay seller, but most who are successful at that are dealing with a pretty wide margin to distribute their time and expenses against.
posted on September 16, 2000 02:20:59 PM
Thank you for the responses so far.
I am happy to see so many Sellers who understand what I am trying to relate to newer Sellers in this thread. I hope that everyone will continue to post their thoughts in this thread.
I was not anticipating Buyers becoming heated at the idea of a Shipping and Handling fee. After all, I was taught in my 8th grade public school class in social studies that as a consumer, whenever we purchased anything from a retail store, we were paying shipping & handling costs and every other costs, including all the labor. Every penny of cost is accounted for when you pay for it. I thought that everyone was aware of this simple, basic fact of commerce. ??
It has also been correctly pointed out Retail and Auctions do not do business the same way -- isn't that obvious? I mean, who buys on eBay and thinks that they are shopping at a mail-order mall store?
It has been correctly pointed out that if all expenses were thrown into the Starting Price, Sellers would pay expen$ive fees to eBay on it. It also would raise the starting parice too high for many Sellers and they would not be able to offer those items for sale to you shoppers.
So putting the expenses into the Starting Price just isn't business-smart or workable. Sorry -- it just doesn't work that way.
Then there are those Buyers who squwak at the very idea of Shipping & Handling. As was correctly pointed out in this thread, even after you total up the Winning Bid amount + Shipping & Handling = one hellava Discount!
So my point is, once again:
a) Sellers who can not bury their costs into the Starting Price need to charge a S&H fee.
b) Sellers, as their business grows, need to account for every fraction of a penny spent.
Lastly, I want to put something to rest: I have never, ever said that I charge $6.95 S&H for a 2-ounce item sent First Class. What I said was, was I thought that it was entirely appropriate. That means, should I wish to bid on an item and I see such a fee, it likely would not bother me in the least as look at the **HUGE** discount off of the retail price I am receiving!
posted on September 16, 2000 03:02:51 PM
I agree with Broiller.
As long as the fee is stated in the auction descrpitoin what difference does it make.
I do agree that those doing this as a hobby should not charge handling.
But most items on Ebay are being sold by business. S/H fee's in the range of $5 to $10 are very common, however most large businesses hide the actual shipping cost from the buyer.(and Don't you ever think that the big opeators actually pay the posted UPS rates. The all get discounts)
Whats the difference between these two sellers.
A) Seller offers a 2 oz item with "actual shipping" The charge is $3.20 item arrives in a priority mail box with a handwritten label. It arrives in 3 days.
B) Seller offers a flat S/H of $1.95 and puts the item in a First class mail box with $0.55 postage and a printed address label. It arrives in 2 days. But there is an apparant handling charge of $1.40
Is A) the better deal because there is no handling fee? isn't B) better because the seller packs his items smartly and costs the buyer $1.25 less
posted on September 16, 2000 03:18:54 PMa) Sellers who can not bury their costs into the Starting Price need to charge a S&H fee.
WRONG
Perhaps, "some" sellers need to do that, but I don't. On many items I could toss the shipping in for free, and still come out WAY ahead. As a matter of fact, I have tossed the shipping in for free on some items when they've ended up finishing at WAY above what I ever dreamed they would.
I guess it depends what you sell, and how well those items do at auction?
posted on September 16, 2000 04:36:49 PM
Umm, reddeer, I think that you are perhaps not reading correctly? From your post above, you bury your expenses into Selling Price. Terrific! I hope that you'll always be able to do so. And may you always have so many auctions that end up so way above your expectations that you can simply bury the . . . , er, I mean, "toss in" the S&H costs.
posted on September 16, 2000 04:51:19 PM
Oh, I think I read your post correctly Borillar.
You never mentioned anything about the selling price, only the starting price, and those of us that didn't bury it in the starting price, should charge S&H.
I simply stated I don't need to do either.
I get the feeling that you're trying to convince new sellers that this should be mandatory if one is to make $$$ with online auctions.
posted on September 16, 2000 04:54:11 PM
Fine. Charge as much as you think you can get away with for shipping and handling. Just make sure you state it up front. It is only fair to make your potential bidders well aware of what you are up to.
As far as I'm concerned, you'll just be driving bidders away, and hopefully they end up at my auctions instead.
posted on September 16, 2000 04:57:00 PM
Borilla your post is based on sound buisness logic, but sometimes you have to tailor your buiness practices to fit certain circumstances. I own a automotive repair shop and my wife is a fulltime Ebay seller and I can draw a connection between the two that fits the topic of your post.
I of course perform oil changes in my line of buisness and the going rate for an oil change in my area is about $24.00, I am a small shop so unlike the Quick lube shops that buy oil and filters in huge amounts at a huge discount, I dont make squat on oil changes, but I do them because I have to. What would happen to my customer base if I told customers that I was going to charge the shop labor rate of $50.00 hr plus parts plus waste disposal plus the EPA tax on oil. I will tell you what will happen, they will go elsewhere. And so it is with my wifes ebay buisness she charges $3.20 for a priority package because that is what the customer wants and expects. But unless you are the lucky one on Ebay that has a truly uniqe item you fall in line with shipping charges or your customers will move on to the next item.
posted on September 16, 2000 05:48:15 PM
I don't care what sellers charge for shipping and handling. If it's a rare item and I want it, I will bid on it with the knowledg that the handling fee is something I will have to pay. If it's an item that I will likely see again, I will wait and hope I can find one without a handling charge. I just ask that sellers be specific about the shipping and handling charge and don't make buyers email you and ask what is included in the charge.
If I see s/h $6.95 for an item that I know can be mailed for 55 cents, I'm going to email the seller and ask if insurance is included, delivery confirmation and/or priority. I would much rather the seller be upfront and save me time by saying "Postage cost 55 cents, $6.40 handling charge which includes materials, time and labor." I may not agree, but at least I know IN ADVANCE what all the charges are!
Why would a seller NOT want to be specific about what the buyer is paying for with the shipping charge?
posted on September 16, 2000 05:54:55 PM
ARGH wrote:
Well, sorry, but even if the final price were still a good deal, you won't find me bidding. I refuse to deal with anyone who charges unreasonable handling charges - why would I expect that same seller to suddenly become reasonble should a problem arise??
Argh, baby, you hit the nail on the head! This is PRECISELY the issue for me. To me excessive handling charges say, "I want to con you into thinking you're paying less for this than you are." "I'm in this for ME, and Buyers be danged." "Customer relations? Whasthat?"
And no, most people don't really prefer to deal with people like that. They may do it, but most really don't prefer it, given their druthers.
Of course, it occurs to me that some people may not like being completely honest with themselves about the full price they're paying for something. "Oh, this was only $10." Never mind they paid nearly twice that when you figure in *handling* and shipping. In that case, I guess they get what they pay for, eh?
posted on September 16, 2000 06:17:20 PM
reddeer said: (Perhaps, "some" sellers need to do that, but I don't. On many items I could toss the shipping in for free, and still come out WAY ahead. As a matter of fact, I have tossed the shipping in for free on some items when they've ended up finishing at WAY above what I ever dreamed they would.)
I think Borillar would just prefer that people running businesses on eBay would act like they are runnning a business.
I you choose to give someone free shipping because they paid more for an item than you thought they would, more power to you.
However, it is my experience that when something I paid $10.00 for sells for $100.00, the buyer is usually so happy that they have won the item that asking them to pay the shipping & handling charges is completely secondary to them. They never complain about the cost of shipping because now they have something that they really wanted.
The only reason to give them free shipping or not charge them a handling fee is if you feel like you don't have to do it. If you are running a business though, there is no reason that you shouldn't ask for your shipping & handling fees.
posted on September 16, 2000 06:23:32 PM
Genxmike ..... I've been selling on eBay for going on 3 yrs, and have never charged a handling fee.
I also have many repeat customers, go figure?
Here's the last item I tossed in FREE shipping for.
I paid $110 for the item & placed a $150 reserve expecting the reserve to be met early on. I also expected the item to go for double that amount, easily, and was hoping it would reach $500. It sold for over $800.
Ya, that damn shipping & handling fee
shoulda been tagged on. What in the hell was I thinking of?
posted on September 16, 2000 06:31:06 PM
ARGH wrote:
Well, sorry, but even if the final price were still a good deal, you won't find me bidding. I refuse to deal with anyone who charges unreasonable handling charges - why would I expect that same seller to suddenly become reasonble should a problem arise??
Argh, baby, you hit the nail on the head! This is PRECISELY the issue for me. To me excessive handling charges say, "I want to con you into thinking you're paying less for this than you are." "I'm in this for ME, and Buyers be danged." "Customer relations? Whasthat?"
And no, most people don't really prefer to deal with people like that. They may do it, but most really don't prefer it, given their druthers.
OTOH, it occurs to me that some people may not like being completely honest with themselves about the full price they're paying for something. "Oh, this was only $10," ignoring completely that they paid nearly twice that when *handling* and shipping are included. In that case, I guess they get what they pay for, eh? A certain peace of mind.
