posted on September 16, 2000 09:02:44 PM new
Hello, CleverGirl, and thank you for coming out of lurking to join us in the discussions. I want to mention a few things that I hope will bring you to understand where sellers are coming from.
". . . unreasonable handling charges . . .", you said. What my experience with Buyers on this matter is, is that they fail to understand what all costs go into shipping your item to you. It's not just the postage, insurance, and/or delivery confirmation. There are many costs associated with materials and time, accounting, taxes, etc. None of these things should be placed inside of an item's initial selling price in my opinion. And without getting a long list of all of the Seller's expenses, you can't know for sure if the S&H is excessive or not 99% of the time.
I also want to point out that S&H fees are becoming more and more common on eBay. There's only so much good junk around that's worth buying, so the majority of new Sellers are selling new or refurbished items. You will see more and more S&H fees in the $5 to $10 now and in the future than ever before. Get used to it, as it is here to stay.
You've also complained that if you win an item for $10 and you get charged another $10 for S&H that somehow that's wrong or bad. What your example fails to mention is that the normal retail price for the item is around $80. It honestly doesn't matter if a Seller sells you an $80 item for a single penny and then charged you $19.99 for S&H or would sell it to you for $20 and charge you nothing for S&H. The point is, is that you simply do not want to be bothered with it - like most buyers.
posted on September 16, 2000 09:09:22 PM newgenxmike understands all to well where I am coming from. I do push for auction Sellers to treat customers and themselves like a real business. A real business caters to the Repeat Customer, not shoving items into the hands of passersby. look at Amway: they started out with laundry soap and where would they be withouit the repeat customers?
I am an entreprenuer who has started from scratch, built up and sold 3 businesses so far and I have two others that I am working on besides this one right now. It comes second nature to me because I have good people skills (except on AW sometimes). With good people skills, I can make any business happen that I dig in to and eventually sell it for a good profit.
Because I understand the importance of making the customer happy, I get lots of money. But too many people who have never had a business before, let alone having ever sold even a newspaper before, are now able to sell on eBay and sometimes they do a miserable job of it.
Many new Sellers do not read AW, but they should. Many do not charge for their expenses and end up selling themselves out of business. Many more never account for their time and eventually realize that they are wasting theirs on eBay. They leave a string of unhappy, unsatisfied customers behind them as they burn out.
This is why I am on AW: to learn and to share. If I can turn all of those Sellers who are making it hard for everyone else who is trying to do the right thing the right way and help make them into responsible, honest business-types, then we'll all do a whole lot more business than we do now. Even if that person is Selling only one time, the customer stills needs the best value and service possible. And when they don't, the media plays up on it and then more people are scared away and we all suffer because of it.
I realize that I can not promote basic business skills and methods so that every Seller can benefit by it. Every Seller's business is unique. But if anyone is expecting absolute black and white answers from me that work every time reguardless of reality, then I'll point them towards their favorite Holy Book. Everything else has exceptions.
posted on September 16, 2000 09:18:44 PM newchazbo: I understand your arguement. Sometimes Sellers have to give away the profitability in one area in order to make some in another. Yet, the bottom line is the bottom line. If your oil changes took you so far down the profitability ladder that it was putting you out of business, you'd have to find some other way to make your proit back or go broke.
Customers usually do not know you and do not thnk even for a moment beyond what it is costing them. Do Buyers expect Priority Mail for $3.20? Of course! Do they want their item packaged in such as way that it will arrive unbroken? Sure! Are they willing to pay for that? Most will, some won't. You see, giving away the profit at online auctions is done because of the starting price being so low. Therefore, the Seller has to figure out some way to get their expenses paid for. If not in the final Selling price - when?
posted on September 16, 2000 11:01:21 PM new
Borillar: you keep pushing this idea that in order to be a "real business", sellers must charge handling fees. You say,"If I can turn all of those Sellers who are making it hard for everyone else who is trying to do the right thing the right way and help make them into responsible, honest business-types, then we'll all do a whole lot more business than we do now."
And I would argue that for some sellers, not charging a handling fee IS the right thing to do. I get the feeling that some sellers who charge high handling fees (the kind that emcompass everything from gas to the PO and twenty other things) want all sellers to charge handling fees so that they don't look so bad. Count me as one seller who won't charge handling fees just to make someone else look good.
These "hobby sellers" whose S/H practices some other sellers have such distain for have some of the really interesting items listed. I think they are helping keep buyers on eBay by offering something other than a lot of the new, cheap items that flood a lot of categories.
A business is not "real" based on whether or not it charges handling fees. There is not one right way to do online auctions...I am sure that for every seller who has success and who charges handling fees, there is one who doesn't charge them. As long as sellers are upfront about what shipping costs are, buyers can decide if it's worth what a seller wants for shipping. Try this: sellers always stating the total for S/H/I (and if that's first class, priority, bookrate, etc.), and buyers always reading the TOS and adhering to them. That would cover most of the problem right there...then we could get back to arguing about the cleanliness of recycled styrofoam peanuts.
One last quote from Borillar:"You see, giving away the profit at online auctions is done because of the starting price being so low. Therefore, the Seller has to figure out some way to get their expenses paid for. If not in the final Selling price - when?"
If you can't get enough from your items to make a profit, then doesn't that tell you that there are too many people selling that product? Seems like there are some pretty basic economics going on here...if the supply exceeds the demand then the price drops. When enough sellers quit selling that item or the demand increases, the price will increase. Only so many widgets are going to be sold, and the sellers with better terms are going to look more attractive to most buyers. Maybe it's time to look for whatzits to sell instead of widgets if there is no profit in them instead of making your profit on shipping widgets.
posted on September 16, 2000 11:52:44 PM new
I think one of the first realities that hits any average small business owner is that they will never get paid a true wage for their time. That is the "trade off" for working for yourself and not having to account to anyone else.
Customers on the internet are no different than ones that come into our shop. Each one should be treated as an individual. Some of them support our shop so well that they get discounts and the finest boxes for their giftware and jewelry each time they purchase. We have also paid the shipping fees for some repeat customers on our auctions and also for a couple of others that were a true delight to deal with. And some sellers have paid the shipping costs for items we have bid on.
We do not make a big profit on some of the giftware items that we sell in our shop but we make up for it when we sell our jewelry. We sell antiques and collectibles on the internet and most items sell for more than they would in our shop.
We purchase all new packing supplies and recycle only a few. We do not charge a handling fee and many times we pay the extra postage cost. We consider this the cost of doing business. I guess it all depends on what you sell and what it sells for and what kind of profit margin you are content with. Each situation is a bit different.
posted on September 17, 2000 12:13:06 AM new
If you want to be reimbursed for expenses related to shippping....the box, the peanuts, the stuffing the plastic wrap the label and put it all into the HANDLING fee that is fine. But when you cahrge for the TIME it takes to wrap and buy the item and list the item and so on and so on go ahead. I will be happy to take your customers and have them do repeat business with me. About 25% of our customers come back to us for repeat service. Many ask for direct sales and ask to be put on lists for items they are looking for. When you talk about Mail Order Service for say a "Do-Hinky" and the item can go Priority Mail ($3.20)and they are shipping it for $6.50 it is because they are hiring a company to do that that is expecting not only to be reimbursed for all their expenses of packaging and employee pay, rent etc they are also wanting to make a PROFIT OFF OF EACH SALE FROM THE SHIPPING/HANDLING/INSURANCE FEES. My parents have owned a business for over 23 years. 8 of them have been in with Mail Order. They never charge any expense except what is costs them. And the invoice states the expenses outright (ie..the box...$.25 the packing materials....$.30 Postage....$2.80 Insurance $.85) The buyer has no problem with paying these fees as they know the cutdown of the amount they are paying and that they are getting great service. Providing GREAT SERVICE is what gets you repeat customers. You can sell almost crap that almost no one wants in auctions and in retail with GREAT SERVICE and the customer will stop in again and again (retail store or your auction list) and buy. Someone mentioned dont compare auctions to a retail store because you never know what you are going to get out of an item....YES YOU DO! The minimum bid should be the minimum you are going to take for this item which includes being reimbursed for TIME AND EXPENSES FOR THE AUCTION. Or else do a reserved auction! If you list too low and dont get enough to cover expenses YOU ARE DOING YOURSELF IN. If you charge $6.95 for a .20oz or whatever it is then YOU WILL HAVE NO REPEAT BUYERS and PISSED OFF CURRENT BUYERS. To save on handling I also mention right up front in EOA that I use recycled products as it is my policy to save our environment. Which is no crap because I have participated in environmental conservation projects for most of my life. Then tell them if they do not want to participate in your auction with recycle products please let you know and the additional packaging materials will be added to the end price. I have only had 2 people not wish to participate with this and they both were buying presents and had no problem paying the extra fees....I even gift wrapped the inside box! I have a woman who purchases the candy she purchased then from me on a regular basis and send a 10 spot each time above what I charge her because she knows I am going out of my way! (This type of candy is not available to her in England) When you are selling....even above the importance of what you are selling IT IS THE SERVICE THAT IS MOST IMPORTANT. If you dont agree it is time for you to go to a few business classes/lectures/seminars and see for yourself...wouldnt hurt also to subscribe to retailing magazines that deal with customer service (1ON1) and small gift items (Country Business) are just two. Of course when you subscribe please remember to ARGUE WITH THEIR POLICY because they ship for FREE and the subscription is also FREE! I am sure you will insist on sending in $6.95 an issue or more because the magazines weigh much more then you are charging for a much smaller item. After all tehy should be reimbursed for their time in putting you in their database and putting your name on a lable and placing it on the magazine....IT IS JUST SO MUCH WORK AND TIME ME OH MY! By the way what are you selling in justifying $6.95 for such a small weight. This totally cracks me up! I deal with wholesale accounts and wonder why some businesses go out of business......they have great merchandise and displays and are in prime location??? Oh wait...I guess you or someone just like you are the owners...in fact I am sure of it.
posted on September 17, 2000 12:26:58 AM new
Hamburgler...those businesses in the prime location and with great displays....they probably went out of business because they didn't account for ALL their costs when they priced their merchandise and ended up giving away the store AND their investment. Happens a lot to new businesses.
posted on September 17, 2000 12:38:59 AM new
Hi, arg! Thankx for the post! You said: "Borillar: you keep pushing this idea that in order to be a "real business", sellers must charge handling fees.
I'm sorry if it comes across that way to you or anyone else. I am pushing Sellers to account for all of their expenses somehow. If it can be absorbed in the selling price - lucky you! If it can't, then Sellers have to resort to Handling fees. What I hate seeing is Sellers who can't bury their expenses in the selling price and are too afraid and cowed to charge a Handling fee. I see Buyers who faint anytime they see a Handling fee because they simply do not understand why it is there. I agree that listing out what expenses that the Buyer is paying for would be a fine thing, but really - go down to your local business and ask them to reveal all of their expenses built into their products. Fat chance! It would be nice to know, but it really isn't any customer's business. Either the price and the service is OK or they shop elsewhere. I see online auctions as being the same in this respect. Of course, I am quite fallible.
posted on September 17, 2000 07:27:10 AM new
My wife sells glass and pottery. This is lab or intensive to ship. The materials needed are expensive. She charges .50 for handling. If people cant afford .50 to ensure that their fragile item is packed securely, they can bid elsewhere. And if you dont think that grocery stores dont figure in every expense in the price of their goods, you are mistaken.
posted on September 18, 2000 02:39:09 AM new
I would like to metion I think their is a difference in charging someone for your time/labor to charging someone for the box and so fourth. (legitimate out-of-pocket expenses) If you are packing a delicate item such as a piece of pottery you should/the buyer should expect to pay more for the items packaging. BUT THIS WOULD BE FOR THE EXACT COSTS OF PACKING MATERIALS. I think this is true for especially someone like OK above...the buyer will be happy to know they are going to get the item well packed and wouldnt mind paying to ensure this. But 2oz for $6.95.....I would expect this charge to be OK ONLY WHEN POSTED UPFRONT IN AUCTION DESCRIPTION WITH ALL OTHER CHARGES. If I won an auction without a shipping price quoted upfront and I figured that it should cost anywhere from $1.00 to $3.20 depending on shipping method (first/priority). Then I got a EOA that stated $6.95 I would go above and beyond not fulfilling the transaction and I would NEG EM. I would leave FB that states SELLER ROBS FROM BUYER WITH OVERCHARGING W/HANDLING 2ox/6.95. See how far you get with the many of the like you would get. That is what is referred to HIGHWAY ROBBERY!!!! End Of Story!!!
posted on September 18, 2000 08:56:27 AM new
Thanks for your nice welcome, Borillar, but I still think your argument is all wet.
I too am a Seller. As well as a Buyer. I've so far gotten all my packing materials free because Sellers have sent them to me.
BTW, I think it would be a good idea for posters on such subjects as this to mention what categories they Sell in. Like OKBUZZ's wife, I sell -- and buy -- in glass and pottery. As a result, I KNOW what it costs to mail things, I KNOW what it takes (time and material-wise) to pack things properly, and I KNOW when Sellers are simply transferring some of their hoped-for profits into that nebulous category called Handling.
BTW, there's another issue that hasn't arisen here yet, an important one actually. Ebay calls it fee avoidance. Go back and read my post on Business 101 -- your basic Profit and Loss statement. Your labor and expenses fall into the EXPENSES category which is deducted from GROSS PROFIT to result in NET PROFIT. If Sellers are routinely shifting some of what SHOULD be in the starting/ending price of their items into a Handling charge, ebay would frown upon that BIG time. Check it out yourself over on ebay's SafeHarbor or User Agreement Community boards.
I had to chuckle over the mention of *burying* one's time and labor and packing materials expenses in the starting/ending price. THAT'S WHERE IT BELONGS, and putting something where it belongs isn't burying it. Burying connotes hiding, and that's not hiding it.
The only things I'd put a minimum bid on less than my own expenses in acquiring them are those that I either need to get out of my life, or which I took a bath on myself and just want to turn them over to recoup some of my, um, *investment.*
Also, in my category, repeat business (tho I'd love it and do work toward acquiring it) isn't much of an issue that I can see. You either have what people want, or you don't. The closest I've come to repeat business was someone saying, "If you list any more such-and-such, let me know." Most of the time, tho, they know they can find it on ebay or elsewhere when that such-and-such item next becomes available. Oh, there's impulse buying, of course, but even that doesn't lend itself to repeat purchases all that much. I doubt that many people even bother to check my other auctions. I know I rarely do that myself.
Also in my category, trying to price something JUST to attract bidders isn't that helpful that I can see. As a Buyer, I either want it at that price or I don't. Since an awful lot of things in my categories go at opening bid (or NO bid), that kind of strategy would land you in the poorhouse quick. It's a function of no takers for that item at that time (and perhaps price). I've seen identical items, similarly and appropriately priced, go for bunches with lots of bidders one week, and the next week NO bidders whatsoever.
I still see no excuse or reason for shifting one's profits into handling fees (and again -- neither would ebay). None whatsoever. The ONLY handling fees I'll ever willingly pay -- and only if I really want something -- is up to $1.00 and only if that's clearly outlined in the listing description.
What I don't understand (or maybe I do) is why you're trying to bump up a following for your (IMO questionable) method of doing business. CG
posted on September 18, 2000 11:43:10 AM new
Howdy,
I see we still have individuals pushing that $6.95 Shipping/Handling for a 2-ounce item is fair theory. Well if the 2 oz item happens to be a Rolex Watch, Diamond Ring, or other valuable jewelry it could be fair. But if I calculate correctly those items insure at higher amounts so they don't exactly make great examples for $6.95 being fair.
In fact, let's breakdown FAIR shipping and handling fees for any item up to two pounds using priority mail.
Priority Mail - The box is free, the post office will even mail them too you for free. So your packagaing cost is cut in half. You wrap the 2 lb item in bubble wrap. 18 inches by 1200 feet of bubble wrap is sold for $104.00. So we divide 10400 by 1200 and that bubble wrap cost us a whopping (.088) cents a foot. Or we get 1200 packages shipped as long as each one doesn't use more than a foot of the stuff.
The time for wrapping something in 18 inches by 12 inches of bubble wrap and placing it in a box isn't a difficult task. Now we spend 6 minutes doing it or we get 10 packages per hour. We'll be generous we'll pay our teenager 10 dollars per hour for the task or ONE Dollar per package wrapped, boxed, and addressed.
We drive 5 miles each way to the post office for which we get 32 cents a mile or $3.20 to take 10 packages. So we get 32 cents a package.
Now for the difficult part we add these figures together. Let's $3.20 + 8 cents + $1.00 + 32 cents, equals $4.60 okay we need delivery confirmation 35 cents and insurance 85 cents for $50.00. We get $5.80 all cost included. We got our labor, our materials, transportation, and actual postage.
Now for those in the audience keep insisting on what about my gas. Well the IRS and FASB both say that your gas is covered in that 32 cents a mile using the Standard Deduction Method. Feel free to use the Straight Method but notice now they almost come out the same and the latter requires complete documentation.
Okay for the what about my time at the post office. Well since you're a Sole-Proprietor you can't legally pay yourself a salary as pointed out earlier in the thread. As such your time at the post office becomes part of your job as an ebay seller. But you can send the teenager to do it as part of his wrapping job. Let's see we pay him $10.00 an hour a post office trip for 10 packages takes an hour. So we add an extra dollar to the $5.80 making it $6.80. Keep in mind giving the average teenager the car to go to the post office and return home entails its own risks that have nothing to do with the business thus can't be accounted for.
Now Borillar since you state that $6.95 shipping/handling is fair for a two ounce package. I state I basically agree provided the package has delivery confirmation, insurance and wasn't taken to the Post Office by YOU. If YOU took it well we get back to the $5.80 from above, if YOU wrapped it we drop to $4.80.
Now if you ship items that require more bubble wrap adjust the bubble wrap part of the equation for each additional foot of wrap you use. The labor is the same and the mileage is the same. Well off to sleep.
posted on September 18, 2000 11:59:30 AM new
>>What exactly are we providing our buyers with here? Is is goods or services ???<<
kathyg-
You are providing both. You are providing goods but you are also providing a service in locating the product, making it available to buyers, and then getting it to them in a fast manner.
