posted on June 10, 2005 02:36:13 PM
I did give a ratz azz and I stated my position to your self-serving condescending attitude that people do not have a right to object, or to gather, rally and decry what they perceive as a loss to them.
And your idea of numbers includes rent?? How you doth sloth on that!? You're the one who doesnt give a ratz ass, and its obvious to me you have very little comprehension of raising a family. So if the spouse works, include child care in your expenses, include the kid falling down and chipping his front tooth, include the 10 year old car breaking down, or an occasional fine. Oh wait thats not on paper - totally illogical, so it doesnt happen. If you had any concept of real life for a family you would know your numbers skim very close and when "Life happens" its not even a reality.
And I have never intimated nor said I have an amazeingly fulfilling life -- I have money coming out my azz tsnick! - Amazing and remarkable, aint I? -tsnktsnick!!
All I know is I could never be all about myself by myself as you are fenix and think its something to brag about.
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[ edited by dblfugger9 on Jun 10, 2005 02:37 PM ]
posted on June 10, 2005 02:40:37 PM
Well since you have spent so much time examining my life deciding what I should and should not be proud of Dbl - why don't you tell what it is I should be ashamed of.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
No, I'm saying -- I'm merely -- I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't know why I'm always having people say, are you trying to say -- you know what you can do if you want to know what I'm saying is listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is what I said ...
posted on June 10, 2005 02:47:26 PM
Gee gosh , I wonder how many "sacrifices " the CEOs at United Airlines made ...
My statement on 8-year-olds is not extreme....when does the abuse of the American worker stop....does it stop by magic?
A good analogy is pollution....doesn't come in a big black wall cloud and gets everybody alarmed....no, it comes on slowly and gradually and we get used to things like "Pollution Alert " days when they never happened 40-50 years ago.
If a corporation can get away with screwing their employees it will.....where's the protection....where's the responsibility....where's the concern for the future of the economy....
I know I won't convince the union haters...hate on...I don't really care
posted on June 10, 2005 02:48:48 PM
Fenix--ahhh I dont think theres enough GB on my hard drive to tell ya everything
classicrock000<---ducking
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Baseball season has started,but they have it all wrong.3 strikes and you're out,4 balls you walk.I can tell you right now a man with 4 balls could not possibly walk
posted on June 10, 2005 02:57:51 PM
fenix whotf is examining your life?]
Let me recap this for you:
1. I objected to your saying the workers were stupid for resenting losing a bennie at a job they've thus far have enjoyed. I stated that I dont think you comprehend what the actuality of a family of four lives like on 35,000 a year.
2. All this other stuff is your own stuff.
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[ edited by dblfugger9 on Jun 10, 2005 02:58 PM ]
posted on June 10, 2005 02:58:05 PM
::Gee gosh , I wonder how many "sacrifices " the CEOs at United Airlines made ...::
Hey - when have you ever heard me stick up for CEOs? That just does not happen. I enjoy making money as much as anyone but I just don't see the point of some of these incomes. Unless they are the single parent of 18, 95% of these CEO salaries make no sense.
::My statement on 8-year-olds is not extreme....when does the abuse of the American worker stop....does it stop by magic?::
No, it stops with the Fair Labor Standards Act that was enacted long ago and forbids 8 years olds from working. That's what I mean by extremes. We don't need a union to control something which is illegal to begin with. The only thing an 8 year old can work at legally outside of the family farm is a newpaper route or as an entertainer (and believe me, you don't want to know the regulation surounding that one).
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
No, I'm saying -- I'm merely -- I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't know why I'm always having people say, are you trying to say -- you know what you can do if you want to know what I'm saying is listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is what I said ...
- Ann Coulter
[ edited by fenix03 on Jun 10, 2005 03:08 PM ]
posted on June 10, 2005 03:00:47 PM
A point that I believe is being down played here...is that the unions, as they currently are, give NOTHING to those who have paid their union dues for years.
So while one can complain about about what's being taken away..the FACT remains the unions give little to no support to their workers.
McDonnel-Douglas is another instance of their union NOT helping retired employees out. When my FIL retired he had wonderful medical/dental benefits. Then approx. 3-4 years down the road, the company took away ALL retire medical benefits. Period....they turned to their union, to whom they had paid dues for most of 30+ years....and to what avail? Zilch...nada...nothing the union could do.
That's why many are deciding they don't want to support these useless union organizations that just use their money to pay their leaders a HUGE salary...and do little else.
posted on June 10, 2005 03:00:48 PM
Dbl - I didn't say they were stupid for resenting it. I said they were stupid for striking for 6 months over it.
(Especially in California, in a recession at a time when there was record unemployment)
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
No, I'm saying -- I'm merely -- I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't know why I'm always having people say, are you trying to say -- you know what you can do if you want to know what I'm saying is listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is what I said ...
- Ann Coulter
[ edited by fenix03 on Jun 10, 2005 03:02 PM ]
posted on June 10, 2005 03:11:37 PM
That's it classic.... I'm using this weeks profits to pay for a plane with a very big magnet to fly over your house and erase all your classic not yet converted tapes.
That'll teach him!
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
No, I'm saying -- I'm merely -- I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't know why I'm always having people say, are you trying to say -- you know what you can do if you want to know what I'm saying is listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is what I said ...
posted on June 10, 2005 03:15:33 PM
OUCH!!! That was harsh
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Baseball season has started,but they have it all wrong.3 strikes and you're out,4 balls you walk.I can tell you right now a man with 4 balls could not possibly walk
posted on June 10, 2005 03:28:52 PMSo while one can complain about about what's being taken away..the FACT remains the unions give little to no support to their workers.
So what is the alternative, Linda? So far in this country's history unions have been the means to fight labor disputes. I mean, how does the American worker put their foot down? Where and through whom can they say this is our country, were here, were working hard and we want a quality of life in exchange for it??
Corporations and institutions are giving back less and less - what is the source of this? I believe it leads to a full round circle. If people cannot have some measure of contentment and security.....the work performance will suffer and eventually the corporations suffer themselves. I really do not know what the source of this is. Some will key here greedy republicans, but it goes further than just a party affliation, imo. Its a loss of some self-respect and desire for continunity in this country where dog-eat-dog has reached epic porportions, and acceptance of less with resignation and depression as the norm. And if workers like these grocery workers ask for some concession at the risk of losing everything they own, there is something very wrong going on.
.
posted on June 10, 2005 03:41:05 PM
dbl - I wasn't directing that post towards your personal argument. But since you took it that way...I'll admit....I don't have the answers for your many questions.
All I've been doing here, in each of my posts, is pointing out that unions are NOT helping anyone - current members or retired members.
And I've often wondered why the unions weren't protecting the 401ks of those who are in their unions too.
Yesterday I caught the tail end of a conversation about the 25,000 GMC workers who will be laid off. They were speaking to 'what's to become with their 401ks, retirement plans for those workers? Why haven't the unions been involved in protecting both these areas for their members? They haven't been that I know of. Why not?
So....in summary, I just don't see even ONE place where the unions are doing any good for the workers at all. Do you? Do you see where the unions are making a difference, helping American workers?
posted on June 11, 2005 04:15:18 AM
Hi Linda, I didnt see your post here last night. (my new'ie thing on the RT Home page is not working right & I guess this thread got buried) - Anyway, I dont know what the answers are either. I'm sure some unions have done SOMETHING good for somebody? - otherwise they would cease to exist wouldnt they?
Its funny a neighbor of mine worked for AT&T and then just up to when it became Verizon and retired after 35 years. She had (and has) for the most part really great benefits! I think they upped her co-pay from what they could out of the original contract, but its still a very good plan. It's not like years ago where loyalty to one company paid off something for staying for years. Its kinda sad in my opinion.
And then I was at 7-11 the other day. Just chit-chating with the clerk a minute, and she offered some resigned comment "about the the way it is", and I thought to myself: here she is a clerk working for Southland - a huge profitable corporation, and do they even realize how the employees and these people feel? I know they dont. And it occurred to me why is everyone so powerless and content to be so?
.
[ edited by dblfugger9 on Jun 11, 2005 04:28 AM ]
posted on June 11, 2005 06:21:27 AM
Linda correct.
Classic, if unions just made benefits better and didn't harp on wages (where their dues come from) then they could still serve a purpose.
United's union is so strong and great their pensioners lost 30%.
Unions are only out for themselves. Most don't even help in a grievance anymore. People claim to want change but the unions have not changed with the times, so they are passe.
posted on June 11, 2005 06:42:06 AM
Well, I see not many of my pertinent questions got answers ...not surprised.
What some fail to realize is that the Union IS the workers...it is not a seperate entity. If you just pay your dues and sit back it's the same as voting and then accepting everything politicians do like a brain dead sheep.
If union members do not become involved it actually isn't even a union...to be united you have to work together.....that's where the strength is. If you let 6-8 officials take care of everything you deserve what you get.
Also, if the Repug government interferes in strikes and negotiations and threatens to call out the National Guard (Reagan was good at this) to keep workers "in their place" then unions are weakened.
posted on June 11, 2005 06:53:19 AM
Ron-they have to collect money from the employees to pay the people that run the union.Okay- maybe our union is different because its a state union and maybe more carefully watched? I know that we cannot go out on strike(the Taylor law)so our bargaining power is some what limited.Im not in favor of strikes at all,but even the threat of a strike can get what you want sometimes.I guess unions in the private secter is different and I guess they can do as they please.I have no complaints with mine at all-in fact after I retired, I elected to keep the states health insurance because it was so cheap.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Baseball season has started,but they have it all wrong.3 strikes and you're out,4 balls you walk.I can tell you right now a man with 4 balls could not possibly walk
posted on June 11, 2005 10:55:53 AM
Classic, I do have to agree with you, state employee unions seem to be better organized and genuienly out for their members. I know the one in Oregon got quite a retirement package for their employees, so much so Oregon is going broke.
Unions I am speaking of are the ones most people think of. Worthless, most of them. Fenix even made a good point, wonder how much money those people lost being out for 6 months?
posted on June 11, 2005 11:07:09 AM
Ron-New York wont have to worry about going broke-our taxes are high enough! LOL
I also agree with what Fenix said about those employees being out 6 months-makes you wonder what the hell the union officials were doing all this time.
Its unfortunate as unions can be a good thing as long as the officials aren't abusing their privileges.I know here we vote for the officials and each troops representatives every 3 years,so if they aren't doing a good job-they're out-so maybe thats keeps them on their toes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Baseball season has started,but they have it all wrong.3 strikes and you're out,4 balls you walk.I can tell you right now a man with 4 balls could not possibly walk
posted on June 11, 2005 11:56:51 AM
I too have read over and over that both State and Federal unions are much different than those who serve 'outside government' workers.
-----
I'm sure some unions have done SOMETHING good for somebody? - otherwise they would cease to exist wouldnt they?
dbl - I can't say that there hasn't been any [at all] who union reps have helped....I'm just saying that in the BIG problem areas, they fail their membership totally.
They did serve a purpose at one time...they did make a difference at one time...but I don't see that anymore. They fill their coffers with the dues members pay.
I was a union member twice in my life. Once when I worked for Douglas [later - McDonnel/Douglas] and another time at an HMO in CA. Why? Because if I wanted the job...I HAD to join. Not because I felt it was necessary.
So in answer to your question of why would they still exist...I'd say because people don't have a choice ...if they want that job and it's a union house...then they either choose to join or look elsewhere.
I'd rather see it be a choice...than forced.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on June 11, 2005 02:26:25 PM
We no longer shop at Vons or Albertsons, the only two stores involved in the strike and represented in this area. We don't shop at Wal-Mart either. We patronize local stores that are fair to their employees.
__________
The Islamofascist fig-puckers are fighting to spread their culture and religion, and to destroy ours
posted on June 11, 2005 08:04:08 PM
Isn't the idea of a strike not only protect present workers from taking cuts in pay and benefits? Isn't a strike also about helping to protect futures workers?
I didn't read every word posted here but didn't see many thoughts about the future of the American worker.
Both sides have to admit that the standard of living for millions of American workers is going down not up.
Republicans says its the Unions and democrats fault, Union workers and democrats say its the republicans fault. Because we are so divided on so many issues and the people in power have found a way to play us all like violins. Only the people in power are truly making out better.
posted on June 11, 2005 09:03:24 PM
Peepa - that is supposed to be point but tell me, when machine workers strike such as the often threatened ones at United would send a company out of simple backruptcy and into court ordered liquidation, how is anyone being served?
In a perfect world everyone would be able to make a good living wage and companies would thrive, the flowers would bloom and the birds would sing. Unfortuantely in the real world, giving employees everything they want is usually detrimental to the company. If the company does not make a profit, they lay people off, they cut employment numbers or in worst case, they close down entirely. There has to be a balance between the good of the employee and the good of the employer. This is even more important where you are dealing with a publicly traded company. Then not only are you dealing with employees and employers but also stockholders, everyday regular people who have their retirement and mutual funds tied into the company. If the company does not meet expectations then stock values drop, credit lines can be cut, credit line interest rates can be increased.
Business is rarely as simple "just pay them more".
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
No, I'm saying -- I'm merely -- I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't know why I'm always having people say, are you trying to say -- you know what you can do if you want to know what I'm saying is listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is what I said ...
posted on June 11, 2005 09:10:06 PM
"""Unfortuantely in the real world, giving employees everything they want is usually detrimental to the company."""
Yup, those ungodly, overblown CEO salaries ARE detrimental to the company.
Executive wages have gone up about 2,000% since the 70's....average worker ...about 38%.
""If the company does not make a profit, they lay people off, they cut employment numbers or in worst case, they close down entirely"""
If the company doesn't make a profit why not cut executives salary, fire the lousy management that let the company lose profits. Why always start at the bottom .
If treating people decently ruins a company maybe America had better look at the way it does business.
posted on June 12, 2005 06:23:56 AM
Fenix and Crow, you both have valid points.
I don't see the American worker getting everything they want I see the American just trying to hold on to what they got instead of going backwards.
United is no different than a lot of big U.S. Companies. Look at G.M. they are closing plants and will lay off 25,000 people. Three of the main reasons G.M. says for this cut back is foreign companies,high health insurance cost and high fuel cost.
These are problems our government has known about for years. What have our government done about it next to nothing. What the government has done is make the problems much worst.
The government has allowed American companies to outsource millions of jobs to increase foreign competition, our government has allowed companies to take billions upon billions of dollars out of the American economy by allowing companies to use off shore banking to avoid paying American taxes, we have no real energy program in place,the government has done next to nothing to have better mass transit and we all know the health care and insurance cost is a joke in the U.S.
I just don't see where we can blame the American worker and Unions for all our problems. I see people in our government that are so in bed with lobbyist and their money that nothing is getting done for the American worker except their standard of living is going backwards. For that matter I would like to know what our government has done to make America itself a better country.
We all need to remember all a working man or woman has to sell is their work years.
ONLY THE RICH ARE DOING MUCH BETTER. THE REST OF US ARE HOLDING ON BY OUR FINGER TIPS OR GOING BACKWARDS.
posted on June 12, 2005 08:15:40 AM
You need to know the real story about United Airlines before you can speak for them.
People are not flying because the cost is so high.
I see you are jealous about the pay the CEO's get well get over it because it will never change and it is not a political thing because CEO's have been getting big pay for a long time. Not just since Bush became president. What about the CEO's of the unions, I am sure their pay isn't chump change. What about the protection the union president has who can't be fired or laid off and also gets paid from the union and also the union stewards who can't be laid off or fired as they are protected.
What about you bigpeepa. You are CEO of your antique business and you charge Republicans 3x the money for antiques. Isn't that just as bad?
You want this country to be like Robin Hood, Take from the rich and give to the poor. Why should the rich give up their money? Explain that to me bigpeepa? And it better be good. Maybe the poor need to figure out why they are poor and do something about it.
What I see in the poor is children wearing expensive leather jackets, tennis shoes, the latest in fashion. Now could that be one reason that they haven't any money? It the parents of those children that complain they don't have money for schools and want the taxpayers to pay their fees.
posted on June 12, 2005 08:18:43 AM
Now I see by your last post bigpeepa you are now starting to see that this just didn't happen when Pres. Bush took over. It has been happening a long time and it can't be solved over night.
posted on June 12, 2005 08:46:23 AMI see you are jealous about the pay the CEO's get well get over it because it will never change and it is not a political thing because CEO's have been getting big pay for a long time.
But, but, but Libra that didnt' matter to them when we were experiencing the tech boom under the clinton administration.
And I kind of disagree that it's not a political issue. You're right, it's not in one way but in another it does tie in with the liberals political platform of, as you called it, Robin Hood...taking from the rich - giving to the poor. Poor being defined as anyone who actually has to work for a living and doesn't make as much as the CEO's do. "THAT'S NOT FAIR", they complain and whine...."take it away from them and re-distribute it to others." Liberals would LOVE to force that to come about. You know, income re-distribution and all.
Not just since Bush became president
True...I often wonder just who they think approves and grants these huge salaries to CEO's. I often wonder if they even realize WHY they are paid as much as they are. I don't think they 'get' it. As you say...they're just jealous they aren't in that same position....because they don't have the same abilites/skills to offer an extremely large company. They're too busy posting here on a chat board.
posted on June 12, 2005 09:14:00 AMbecause they don't have the same abilites/skills to offer an extremely large company. They're too busy posting here on a chat board.
Well I guess Linda better starting learning the phrase "Would you like fries with that?" I think that would sum up her skills and abilities.
And what would your qualifications be to run a large company? I suppose you learned everything you needed to know about running a large successful company during your month vacation.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
----------------------------------
President George Bush: "Over time the truth will come out."
President George Bush: "Our people are going to find out the truth, and the truth will say that this intelligence was good intelligence. There's no doubt in my mind."
Bush was right. The truth did come out and the facts are he misled Congress and the American people about the reasons we should go to war in Iraq.
posted on June 12, 2005 09:20:53 AMWell I guess Linda better starting learning the phrase "Would you like fries with that?" I think that would sum up her skills and abilities.
Shows how much you DON'T know.
[i]And what would your qualifications be to run a large company? I suppose you learned everything you needed to know about running a large successful company during your month vacation[i].
Is that your attempt at some kind of humor? wasn't even close to being funny.
But see...I'm not the one complaining about high CEO salaries. I'm not the one that believes in income redistribution. I think they earn their salaries....most anyway.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
