posted on September 20, 2000 09:15:38 AM
It is different because the fact that it was a pattern was stated in the description.
It was not stated that this item was a reproduction, was new, not old, even though in a catagory that was specifically designated for older glassware.
So, let me ask you this, is it okay for dealers to list brand new repro Roseville in the Roseville catagory and not mention that it is a repro? even though they know it is a repro. I know some pretty high end, savvy dealers who have been ripped off in that particular mess, and yet we demand that people new to online buying know how to avoid this or take the consequences. Yes, and then they quit buying. Obviously some people care, but if the majority refuse to acknowledge that something needs to be done we can keep asking the question, why are sales down and never see at least one very good reason.
cariad
posted on September 20, 2000 09:18:10 AM
HCQ wrote (someone really should give me a few UBB tips):
"But the listing itself didn't say ANYthing about the maker or age of the piece - IOW, your friend assumed that because it was in that category, it was an antique."
HCQ, I thoroughly disagree and would bet that nearly every buyer AND seller in this and many similar categories would too. The presumption is exactly in the opposite direction: that it's old and authentic unless stated otherwise. It would be ridiculous for that question to need to be asked of Sellers for every listing. As both Buyer and Seller, I'd go nuts and flee ebay altogether.
I am also uncomfortable with your use of the word antique, because these categories of old glassware aren't typically considered antiques.
HCQ again:
"I think this was a case of too-clever marketing on the seller's part (where are your repros going to get the most hits? Lost in "General"? Or in the same category as the real thing?) and extremely wishful thinking on the part of your friend."
I believe if you were familiar with these categories you'd think otherwise about her friend's thinking. The term *Elegant Glass* has already been defined -- for the most part it's high quality glass from certain wll-known makers (and some unknown makers) during primarily the Depression era (tho as I said, a few lines continued to be produced after that). Any piece offered for sale which doesn't meet these criteria (and "Made in China" most certainly doesn't) should be well noted as such in the listing if not in the title, no matter WHAT category it's listed in, including General.
Now if you're talking about the "Antiques and Art Glass" main category, that's VERY polluted, a dumping ground. Just about anything goes.
I'd bet that most of us who buy or sell authentic stuff would vote for a separate category for repops, if not (as I fantasize), a total ban. Carnival glass is another wildly misunderstood and misused descripton. Oy! don't get me started.
In all fairness, some folks don't know what they have, but that's usually very clear from the description, if not title. Then, of course, are those Sellers who know exactly what they've got and provide just enough of a hint so that an alert and knowledgeable buyer will get it and pass on by, but the naive will tumble. And I think all fair-minded people object to such practices. It's a deliberate attempt to deceive
An example might be, "Depression pink glass style reamer." It's not flat out "Depression STYLE," -- or better yet, REPRO -- but just vague enough to throw the unalert and uneducated off, while still maintaining what in other circles has been called *credible diniability* for the Seller should the Buyer object.
Those of us who are interested in old glassware can walk into an antique store, flea market, yard sale, whatever and tell a lot by examining these pieces ourselves, up close and personal. For some reproductions it's easier than with others to tell the difference, but a personal ispection can most often be defining. With on-line auctions, we don't have the ability to do that and must rely completely and totally on Sellers' representations. That puts a much larger moral and practical burden on Sellers, I think -- at least those who aren't specifically out to rip people off.
This Buyer had every right to assume the item was genuine and authentic UNLESS stated otherwise and I think it's obvious this Seller purposely misrepresented her auction items.
posted on September 20, 2000 09:21:30 AM
So now a seller has to know the technical meaning of each and every ebay category before he posts? Gimme a break. Doesn't the bidder have the responsibility to read the Description and ask question?
And... "WHEN I SEE THE WORD "VINTAGE" I SELDOM LOOK ANY FURTHER. IF IT SAYS OLD THEN I KNOW THE SELLER IS REPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HE SAYS. " ... So now sellers shouldn't use the term vintage to describe a vintage item? Sheeesh! Bidders with that attitude I don't need or want!
posted on September 20, 2000 09:22:03 AM
I'd agree with you on that point, njrazd. I fully believe the seller was asking for trouble. I also believe that in this case the bidder quite willingly swallowed the bait. Seller is a scheister. Bidder is a schlemiel.
posted on September 20, 2000 09:41:58 AM
Selling & buying glass, antiques & fragile material has got to be the toughest category one can imagine in eBay or online. I just can't imagine what buyer & seller must go through from packing & valuing the material since every hairline crack might devalue the collectible. Anyone here is in that line of business. Talk about pressure, glad I only sell books
Anyway, it looks to me that the seller is being deceptive rather than actually flat out lie. And yes most people will not bother to e-mail the seller & ask for details.
I was looking at computers for the last few weeks & I saw a few sellers listing Pentium 800+ for sale but when I read the fine print, they were actually over clocking a lower grade Pentiums. Now mind you that they were in the auction but very deceptively added to the fine print.
Similar to this situation, seller is very cleverly hiding all the facts about the item he is selling. I don't know what you can do but I would not pay a 2nd glance to those sellers if I knew what you know.
posted on September 20, 2000 10:18:30 AM
I agree with Cariad. The Elegant Glass category is specific to glass items produced by AMERICAN glass companies during and subsequent to the Depression Era. Granted a glass neophyte seller might think that the item in question was "elegant" (used as adjective) and therefore put it in the wrong category. But I think this was not the case, since as I understand it, the seller knew enough to call out the PATTERN, thus having enough knowledge to KNOW where to put this brand new item.
Such deceptive practices are rampant in the Glass categories. Depression "style" shakers and reamer measurers clog up the Depression categories. These sellers know exactly what they have since they bought them yesterday in bulk, but continue to try to deceive buyers by making the wording "just so" in order in order to skirt the "deception" issue. Of course there should be a Reproduction Category. But how many of these sellers would use it. I'm sure they would consider it the "kiss of death" to their phony collectible glass auction. But then, I'd love to see a "Martha's Glass" category too. I'm so tired of seeing that crap in the Fire King category. And yes, those sellers know it's Martha's.
posted on September 20, 2000 10:21:54 AM
Gee,HCQ, how nice of you to call new collectors that may not have had the time to acquire the knowledge in their collecting fields a "schmiel". Guess we were all "schmiels" at one time, eh?
posted on September 20, 2000 10:40:59 AM
I sell fake Rosevilles and in my title I clearly state FAKE, I don't believe in "NEW" or "SECOND GENERATION" Rosevilles. In the beginning I almost got ripped off by a seller that did not state a Roseville I was bidding on as new, repro, fake or whatever they call it. So I decided to sell the fakes clearly stated as such to alert viewers that fakes are all over the place.
Guess what? Ebay shut down my auctions for possible VERO violations.
OLD JAPANESE SAYING: More talk, more mistakes. Less talk, less mistakes. No talk, no mistakes.
posted on September 20, 2000 10:45:34 AM
As a buyer, demand a refund--email safe harbor for misrepresetation by the seller, and take this as a lesson well learned. And we all wonder why sales are down.
A buyer is trusting the integrity of the seller. If that trust is abused--one more less customer online and that hurts all the sellers.
posted on September 20, 2000 11:04:55 AM
KatyD-then all catagories should have a some kind of warning or prerequisite before you place an item in it.
I don't know what Elegant means, in reference to the catagory. You said it meant only American made and during and subsequent to the Depression era. Ok. I understand that, but I can't find where it states that in the ebay catagory. I don't put anything there... whew...
Ok someone else said that all tags that are on an item being placed in ebay, those tags should be disclosed. Ok, then that neat real Depression era elegant glass you scored at a garage sale, that had a tag on it that read .75 cents or .50 cents, then that should be in the description too?
You go to Nordstroms, Neimum Marcus, and even, someplace like Pier 1. Their 'elegant' glass is pretty danged pricey! and its Made in China. And people buy it, and for those prices.
But your talking about 'vintage' or 'depression era', so they (ebay) should make it clear that before placing anything in these glass catagories they better be
depression era, vintage, antique, American made, and all the rest you describe.
I think the buyer that got ripped off here, should report seller to Safeharbor, demand refund, and leave negative to seller.
Yes ebaY cited VERO violations in my auctions. One is still running, they somehow missed that one.
Not meaning to be paranoid. I think I p__d off somebody ( fake sellers ) and turned me in.
I just scanned the thread and I also saw the word "VINTAGE" being discussed. I deal in collectibles and I do use it, but i try to keep it in the context of VINTAGE 1960 or VINTAGE 1970, VINTAGE 2000?
Vintage to me is the era an item was made or something that is old, discontinued and no longer in production.
posted on September 20, 2000 11:21:11 AM
Shelly writes: "Ok someone else said that all tags that are on an item being placed in ebay, those tags should be disclosed. Ok, then that neat real Depression era elegant glass you scored at a garage sale, that had a tag on it that read .75 cents or .50 cents, then that should be in the description too?
Shelly we are talking about tags that were placed on there by the company or maker, or a price tag that was put on there by the store that originally sold the item. In the case of collectible glassware, those paper labels can INCREASE the desirability of the piece. I have sold many an old piece that had its original department store tag attached and I would never remove those labels, it pretty much authenticates the piece as old.
posted on September 20, 2000 11:27:18 AM
Hi Shelly
To clarify, Elegant Glass is a glass collecting category specific to those American glass companies such as Heisey, Tiffin, Fostoria, Cambridge, etc. Take a look at the Elegant category under "Glass" and you will see what I am saying. Elegant Glass as a category refers to these manufacturers. Fenton, Lalique, Waterford also make "elegant" (note the adjective non-capitalized) type glass, but you will see that they have their own categories. In addition, Ebay added additional categories such as "Ruby", "Cobalt" etc. And yes, I suppose I could put Cambridge cobalt "Tally Ho" in the Cobalt category, but if I wanted a really successful auction, I would put it in the Cambridge subcategory of the "Elegant" glass section. I don't mind seeing cobalt "repros" in the Cobalt section, but it p*sses me off when I see them in the Depression or Elegant categories, because they don't belong there, and most of the repro sellers know this. Click on Seller's other auctions and you will see pages and pages of these repros bought wholesale that the sellers are trying to foist on unknowlegeable or new collectors.
Categories are there for a reason. Reputable sellers will try to educate themselves about the best category to put their auctions where interested buyers can find them. Doesn't mean you can't list a jackhammer under vintage clothing, because you can. Don't know how many bids it would get, but it could certainly be listed there. But it doesn't belong there anymore than "Repro" glass belongs in the "Elegant" category.
KatyD
(ubb)
[ edited by KatyD on Sep 20, 2000 11:29 AM ]
posted on September 20, 2000 11:28:20 AM
ShellyHerr...my reference to labels and tags was meant to refer to Manufacturer's tags or stickers applied at the time of original purchase. What someone marks on a garage sale item has no reflection on actual worth, while original tags certainly do.
Of course, this does not stop the unethical seller from removing tags & labels, but if they're there, they should be mentioned.
posted on September 20, 2000 11:31:27 AM
I totally agree that Ebay should (if it has not) offer a category for REPRODUCTIONS, with sub categories for Glass, China, Pottery, etc...There are so many FAKE Roseville and other pottery pieces and brand-new MADE IN HONG KONG "Antique Oriental" vases being passed as Antique or "Real Old"...catch-all phrase...
Doing shows, I saw many a would-be Antiques Dealer booted out of those shows for having a booth-full of reproductions.
Still, YES, the BUYER has to ask the right questions, particularly if "It Looks Too Good To Be TRUE".....For one thing, buyer would then have PROOF that description, if not Seller, was deceitful (if they went ahead and bought, then found out it is fake).
posted on September 20, 2000 11:33:05 AM
Get out your Yiddishkeit manual, KatyD
First of all, it's not "schmiel" but "schLEmiel, which Webster's defines as "an unlucky bungler or chump".
"Scheister" or "shyster," OTOH, is defined as "one who is professionally unscrupulous". Comes from the German "scheisser," meaning "one who defecates" on somebody else.
posted on September 20, 2000 11:35:03 AM
cariad -ok we know no one is going to leave a tag that say .50 cents for a garage sale
Ok, I'm not talking depression era or antique, but those pricey items Made in China that sell in finer dept stores for outrageous prices. Now, if I got some of those, from say a garage sale, with an original tag of Made in China, but it does say Nordstroms or some such place, from a garage sale, because someone got it as a wedding gift. I bought it for $1.00. Do I leave the original tag of Made in China on it, and does it make a difference if the Nordy or Nieman Marcus tag was there too? And what catagory would that be put in. It looks elegant to me, its, say a crystal bowl, or a very nice vase. Where do I put it?
Well all I can think of is Contemporary.
I would like to see what the seller sold for $100. or $200 that started the conterversy here. How much did the seller pay for that item to begin with?
And since we need to disclose all tags, then when buyer/bidder asks, we then need to disclose our sources too? Since it may me misrepresentation to not do so?
I really understand that the piece in question should not be in any vintage or depression catagory.
posted on September 20, 2000 11:42:35 AM
I don't own a Yiddishkeit manual, HCQ. Care to sell me one? Thanks for the definitions and the corrected spellings. Not knowing Yiddish, I'm gratified to know the true meanings of those words. And while I may have misspelled, I am glad to know that I was correct in surmising that they were used in a derogatory manner.
posted on September 20, 2000 11:44:22 AM
HCQ gotta be an east coast thing, I never hear anyone say schlemiel or scheister in the west. I've heard the words said though.
posted on September 20, 2000 11:54:49 AM
Anyway! could you guesstimate what you think the seller paid for the cheap glass?
I know people make thier living off ebay selling wholesale. Do they have to say they buy wholesale to a buyer?
I truley understand they should not put it in the elegant etc catagories.
I got reamed up and down, by a person who emailed me. I put a teapot in 'teapots, teasets' (subcatagory I think) because it had an ink transfer of a 19th century scene.
She said it really p*ssed her off to see that, I said, would you read description? I put 'On the bottom it reads Made in China 1999' CLEARLY, no small print. And the mfg, there were no tags. Duo Cao was Mfg. It HAD a scene of 19th century. She still argued that it disrupted her search. I said, what? you just want me to put in description: Teapot Made in China. She said Yeah. That if I put 19th century scene it gets mixed in with the 'true antiquers' search. OK what catagory should that be in? I tried to figure out how to get things in ebay Chinatown, but don't know how.
posted on September 20, 2000 12:26:39 PM
Shosh writes: "Doing shows, I saw many a would-be Antiques Dealer booted out of those shows for having a booth-full of reproductions."
and that's my point Shosh. Dealers complained, the repros were booted, and if that didn't happen, eventually the show would get it's deserved reputation as being full of repros and the show would die, a slow agonizing death for those dealers who tried to keep it going.
While some dealers would like to see all repros burned and smashed to smithereens, others would settle for the simple truth of stating a repro is a repro.
Shelly, I can't give an auction number as that would identify the bidder. Otherwise, I would gladly identify the seller and invite them to this thread.
IfI were to sell a new piece of glass from Neiman Marcus, I would definitely state that it was from Neiman Marcus and cost xxxdollars new, but then I wouldn't be trying to make it seem to be something other than what it is and hoping to get a fair price for something someone would have to pay more for if they went to NM themselves. (then again, some contemporary glass does rise in value, but I can guarantee you not the stuff that is sold at fred&dottie's by the gross). And I would place it in contemporary or a decorative catagory. Although I wouldn't like it, I could tolerate a seller putting it in an older glass catagory because by stating it came from Neiman Marcus, there is clearly no deliberate attempt to deceive.
posted on September 20, 2000 12:40:52 PM
Shelly,
I think that criticism of your teapot was unfair. You used 19th century to describe the scene...not claiming it to be 19thC. You stated clearly when it was made and sounds like it was in the appropriate catagory.I wouldn't think twice about it. Now, if you had put it in staffordshire transferware we would have a big problem.
posted on September 20, 2000 12:52:24 PM
Well at first I laughed, because first all I got was an email, subject: ebay #xxxxxxx, then the contents of the email said:
Your teapot is NOT 19th Century!!!
and I had to look at that and go duh... then I replied to her, and said, no kidding, its in teapots, it clearly says Made In China 1999 with the Chinese Mfg. But still this person wouldn't quit.... she went on to say, all that I said in the other post, how it was annoying and clogging up the search for the 'true antiquers'. Well that is something I can't help, I couldn't just put Teapot, New. Made In China. Mfg: Duo Qao. Well I guess I could. I did put, it has a blue ink transfer of a 19th century scene. So that is what I said... still annoyed the h*ll out of her.
I understand you can't give the # out.
ok, could this be something that could have been put in ebays Chinatown, and does anyone know how to get items in there?
