posted on June 15, 2005 04:38:48 PM newThey were holding on to a fantasy.
lol! and in your logical esteemed opinion that was reason enough to deny her basic medical intervention such as hydration and food? Shewas holding on, fenix. I've seen people die with less damage to their brains or hearts than her. For whatever reason, she stayed here. You'll never get that, though.
posted on June 15, 2005 04:49:31 PM new
Double, please tell me why it's so important for you to see people lie in a vegetive state, sometimes for decades, instead of dying with dignity. And please tell me about the Catholic thing I don't understand.
posted on June 15, 2005 05:00:21 PM newwhy it's so important for you to see people lie in a vegetive state, sometimes for decades, instead of dying with dignity
kraft, please dont play cute with me on this issue. I dont see it as important for "people" -- this is one case where a mother is begging, crying pleading to let her daughter remain living and breathing. Somehow she got the fact that Terri against all medical odds, decided to stay here.
And she did not 'die' with dignity in any shape or form - please go rewatch bill moyers program on that subject.
As far as the catholic/God thing, you know you are beyond comprehension with it so why even try..I'd be better off talking to a coconut head!
posted on June 15, 2005 05:01:12 PM new
I'm sorry dbl - but to use your own words from this thread....
You have your opinion and I have mine. Do you friggin mind? Gawd!
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
No, I'm saying -- I'm merely -- I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't know why I'm always having people say, are you trying to say -- you know what you can do if you want to know what I'm saying is listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is what I said ...
posted on June 15, 2005 05:03:01 PM newso are you saying that the parents and her friends thought he was the greatest guy in the world
I'm not talking about this most recent time when we've all been debating this issue...but before way back, years ago, when either the first or second court case where Terri's friends, family and her nurses were testifying to get Terri's custody REMOVED from Michael's control...to her parents.
But back then....her friends, family and caregivers said at first they thought he was acting in her best interest...but that changed AFTER he received the lawsuit money..and then quickly hooked up with his 'second' wife. Gave them the insight that things weren't as they appeared to them previously.
I don't understand why it's so hard for you to see that friends don't just rush out to speak to the media when something is going wrong in a friend's life. They would only do so when called upon and ASKED how they saw the relationship between the couple. Doesn't mean that at a later date they can't explain their prior concerns...or state what Terri had said to them.
and then then years later decided that they had strangled their daughter and broken numerous bones and they came to this brand new conclusion when he stopped doing what they wanted him to?
When she was first admitted for her collaspe...there were tests done that were reported at that time to show broken bones - supposedly statements later made by the attending doctors. It's not like the parents were making this up themselves....it's what they found out after fighting to see what the test results showed.
the witnesses lack credibility. Their testimony has some rather spectacularly self serving timing.
I disagree and that's why I felt there should have been a whole hearing into this whole case...starting from the beginning...before giving her a death sentence by starvation and dehydration.
But no...the judge, the husband decided that even with the tremendous doubt about the husbands TRUE intentions....they didn't need to review what others who knew and loved Terri were saying. And then they ordered her death....murder, imo.
[i]Linda - I get that the parents don't want to see their child die. But I also get that their daughter was long gone. They were holding on to a fantasy[i].
Since there were differences of opinions, by their doctors and the husbands doctors as to whether or not that was true...at the time....I would NEVER blame them for having hope his doctors were/could be wrong. It's certainly not like doctors haven't often been wrong....especially for patients who are in comas and the family is told by these so-called doctors there is not chance they'll recover and then they do. And I understand a coma is different...I'm just using this as an example of how doctors aren't always right. And imo, his doctors knowing what the husband had told them about Terri's wishes...would tend, imo, to lean more towards 'guessing' [which is all any doctor really does...makes a profession 'guess'] the outcome to be more bleak that the other doctors felt [guessed] it looked.
And anyway it really
doesn't matter fenix. That still doesn't give the State, a spouse with another family and life the RIGHT to choose death for that person. No one has that right/ that power over another....especially not a husband who moved on with his life years ago....and whose motives from the get-go have been suspect.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ But they do know that there was no record or evidence of these broken bones when she was admitted.
I can't say that I agree, I have read nothing that proves anything has changed in the order of which it was previously reported. When she first collapsed...vs...when she had the first cat scan. So I can't answer or address that issue.
In my opinion they knew their accusation were BS from the day they made them. They tried to use inflamatory accusations to get people on their side and it worked. They chose to take this whole thing public and national and drag him thru the muck with accusations that they knew to be false and in my opinion it makes them just as despicable and manipulative as they tried to paint Michael to be.
I don't agree....I think they knew bring it out in the open...especially when they couldn't get this Judge Green to allow any reviews....they felt this was the only way they had of bringing public attention to it.
I would have done the same...as do many others whose children are lost or disappear. They take it to the public.
To me the most "despicable and manipulative" one is the one who chose her DEATH....not the one's who want to keep her alive.
posted on June 15, 2005 05:18:56 PM new
The fact remains that they dont know what caused it. The pathlogists have freely admitted to that.
My personal feeling is she was probably anemic among other things, and likely doing some over the counter (or not so over the counter) weight-reducing drugs that messed up her heart.
posted on June 15, 2005 05:20:55 PM new
::When she was first admitted for her collaspe...there were tests done that were reported at that time to show broken bones - supposedly statements later made by the attending doctors.::
Then all of those attending doctors should lose their liscenses because none of those broken bones were noted in the records at the time.
The broken bones were not noted until a year after she was admitted and I seriously doubt that admitting and treating doctors would have missed a broken pelvis, femur, multiple ribs, and both knees and ankles.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
No, I'm saying -- I'm merely -- I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't know why I'm always having people say, are you trying to say -- you know what you can do if you want to know what I'm saying is listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is what I said ...
- Ann Coulter
[ edited by fenix03 on Jun 15, 2005 05:25 PM ]
posted on June 15, 2005 05:31:13 PM new
How I personally see this is that it's over now....it's too late to change the fact they have already killed her. The State gave legal permission for Michael to kill her...in a most painful way...starvation and dehydration.
There are many other 'Terri's' in our Nation and these types of cases are going to continue to be solved according to where our different morals/beliefs lie. For life or against life.
And this whole story, saga, reminds me of Ol' King Solomon when two women claimed to be the mother of one baby. Solomon suggested the baby be cut in half..and 1/2 given to each mother. Obviously meaning death for the child. The REAL mother who truly loved that child, wouldn't agree to that....she'd rather have the liar have the child than to see it killed.
This is the same thing in my mind. Two sides claiming different views of Terri's wishes....and to me it speaks VERY loudly as to who loved this child/person more. Her parents did. They were the ones who wished to keep her alive. Not the one who fought all these years to have her murdered so he could get on with his life.
posted on June 15, 2005 05:37:50 PM new
I dont know, fenix. When somebody comes in with a cardio emergency, are they looking for broken bones? They must have been a hell of a medical team and frantically worked to keep her alive the way they did. I dont know if anybody is thinking much about pelvic bones etc from an unresponsive patient whose heart is failing at the moment.
posted on June 15, 2005 05:41:53 PM neware going to continue to be solved according to where our different morals/beliefs lie...
Sadly, Linda the way the laws are written is what was followed here. But youre right - all this is strictly back-hand fodder because she is dead now because her legal husband ultimately requested and fought that thats what should be done.
posted on June 15, 2005 05:48:18 PM newIn a victory for Michael Schiavo, a coroner who performed an autopsy on Terri Schiavo reported Wednesday that she suffered from an irreversible brain injury and would not have recovered as her parents insisted was possible.
As predicted the parents of Terri Schiavo don't believe the results. I think they still believe she was due for a miracle. I think there were hoping she might get up and walk out of the hospital if she were kept alive for another twenty years.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
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President George Bush: "Over time the truth will come out."
President George Bush: "Our people are going to find out the truth, and the truth will say that this intelligence was good intelligence. There's no doubt in my mind."
Bush was right. The truth did come out and the facts are he misled Congress and the American people about the reasons we should go to war in Iraq.
posted on June 15, 2005 05:52:35 PM new
Wow......... just wondering if any of this gut-wrenching caring and dedication to Terri Schiavo is ever directed towards the brain injured soldiers who fought in the war in Iraq .......... anyone ever think of them lately? Hmmmm ??
posted on June 15, 2005 06:08:43 PM new
Nope, not like you kiara. You're out there volunteering at the USO and the veterans hospitals, every weekend aint ya? Bet youre spreading good cheer and offering your pole dance to (hopefully men) arent ya? YOURE just so caring about the US Military compared to everyone else. Point that finger towards your own chest.
posted on June 15, 2005 06:36:54 PM new
lol dbl - Naw....kiara doesn't USE the injuries of our troops to continue bringing up HER agenda on the war in Iraq...which has absolutely NOTHING to do with our discussion on THIS thread...as ususal.
Sometimes I think maybe you've been doing TOO much pole dancing kiara....doing so appears to have 'opened' your mind up so much....it's now empty.
------
KD - How long are you going to continue to ask the same question in reverse of what I've already stated.
There is NO PROOF of what she would have wanted. Period...end of discussion from me on THAT point.
It annoys me when you play dumb, KD. I don't think you are but at times you sure act like it. This is one of those times.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on June 15, 2005 06:42:35 PM new
Kraft..... I see you got an emotional answer instead of an unemotional one .... and she managed to attack both of us at the same time too.
posted on June 15, 2005 06:50:25 PM new
Linda, I'm not trying to play dumb. Although my questions might sound silly to you, I think it's important to understand that if her family did NOT know her wishes, it would be safe to assume she would NOT have wanted to remain in a vegetive state. Who would? That's what I'm getting at. Does being Catholic change what her wishes might have been in some way I don't understand? If so, I'd like to hear what's meant.
I'd also like to understand what the purpose is of keeping someone alive in that state. Is that a Catholic thing as well?
posted on June 15, 2005 07:23:01 PM newIs that a Catholic thing as well?
Yes it is, Kraft, although I can't quote you chapter and verse right now. I've battled my aunts, uncles and other relatives over it several times. The worst, my grandfather, was rolled up in a stiff little 70 pound ball with a feeding tube in his gut, in the end stages of Alzheimer's. He was 98 years old. My relatives and I nearly came to blows over letting him go. I lost. While the rest of my family sat around his bedside praying to St. Jude for abuelito to get up, walk out of the hospital and go back to shearing sheep, the hospital staff came into the room daily with what amounted to a giant vacuum and sucked the mucus out of his lungs so he could breathe long enough to absorb the swill that was being dumped into his stomach. It was the most gruesome, offensive, inhuman treatment of a beloved patriarch that I have ever seen. I have never prayed harder for anything in my life than I prayed for god to take him home and away from his kids who refused to let him die like a man.
____________________________________________
Fue por lana y saliσ trasquilado...
posted on June 15, 2005 07:23:01 PM newNow, now........ a little bit of pole dancing does no harm....... keeps you in good shape, frees your mind.... and most of all it makes the men smile...
oh listen to mama marble head..now now. (repeat after me kiara. good girl.keep your eyes open, keep learning.)
hahaha- but too bad she has no sense of when its appropriate like during an argument among women??! pffbt!
kraft, why dont you ask any number of disabled people why'd they want to live a less than quality or perfect life? Blinded? Spinal Injury - why bother living?
People live because they have a purpose for doing so. And that aspect has nothing to do with being catholic. But it is about some morals you dont rightly understand at all, or ever are likely to.
posted on June 15, 2005 07:41:18 PM new"People live because they have a purpose for doing so. And that aspect has nothing to do with being catholic. But it is about some morals you dont rightly understand at all, or ever are likely to."
Terri's brain damage was irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons. She had no concept that she was alive so how could she have a purpose in living?
Another question is why do you see your position as the only moral decision. In my opinion, yours is a thoughtless position and one that is made without regard for Terri's wishes that she had expressed before she became ill.
posted on June 15, 2005 07:45:03 PM new
lol of course you dont get it either helen.
Does somebodys purpose always have to be strictly for thenselves? Try looking at a bigger picture on life for once here.
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[ edited by dblfugger9 on Jun 15, 2005 07:46 PM ]
posted on June 15, 2005 07:51:44 PM new
I feel sorry for anyone who has had to witness a loved one being artificially kept alive when there is absolutely no hope at all for any improvement. I wouldn't wish that to happen to any of my loved ones or my pets, no matter how hard it would be to let them go and I would never want it to be done to me.
posted on June 15, 2005 08:11:33 PM new
[i] I feel sorry for anyone who has had to witness a loved one being artificially kept alive when there is absolutely no hope at all for any improvement.[/i}
yeah like you know anything about hope, positive beliefs, or miracles to start with. If anything good happens to you, you probably kiss off yer lucky penny or your gold-plated pole.
What is artificially kept alive kiara? a colostomy bag? an insulin injection? blood pressure medication? Its all technically 'artificial' means. But I know, giving somebody hydration and nutrition is 'too' artificial isn't it?
Heres a clue for ya: Michael Schivo wouldn't even let them do an EEG to see what was going on in her brain prior to 2001. Five years without any testing. The man's a pure Saint though.
posted on June 15, 2005 08:13:38 PM new
Not in my opinion kraft, and not in alot of disabled people's opinons who viewed this as a judgment on them and quality of life issue. You keep saying "who would want to live like that?"
and its not for you to judge. Who would want to live with a spinal cord injury? Why dont you go find somebody and ask them why they want to live "like that!" or what purpose they serve staying alive?]
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[ edited by dblfugger9 on Jun 15, 2005 08:17 PM ]
posted on June 15, 2005 09:41:45 PM new
Dbl - hopefully somewhere in there someone decided to try to find a cause, one of the things they would do would be a chest x-ray which certainly should have showed multiple broken ribs which would have lead to the discovery of additional breakage.
Instead there is no evidence of these injuries when she was admitted. However there is now proof of severe weakening of her bones which could easily result in multiple breaks and fractures during the physical therapy sessions that took place in the year between her admittance and the time the MRI was done that found them.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
No, I'm saying -- I'm merely -- I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't know why I'm always having people say, are you trying to say -- you know what you can do if you want to know what I'm saying is listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is what I said ...
posted on June 16, 2005 05:04:28 AM new
Of course you are right fenix. I was even thinking that myself as I would imagine they would have had to break open her chest at some point to get to her heart? Maybe the parents will write a book and offer some other details about the whole thing. I am wondering if some of the broken bones didnt occur in the hospital? I think its been known to happen.
Funny kraft, I think it's you and the others that 'dont get' it. So we are at an impasse on that. If you dont believe me, why dont you go read some of the disabled sites and see what their feelings about it are?
And as far as an insane statement, even the guy who is in love with her said she is completely dour. She lectured libra its just an opinion,an observation, if you will. So same thing here. And of course you have to take up her torch! Goodie-Goodie super-friend that you are. (You'd think she'd at least take up your own in return once in awhile? Dont you think she should have defended you against the pot-head statement? But nahh, doesnt happen.)
imo, you have to believe in something to have hope first - because nothing ever really happens without it. Even if its only subconscious. And yes, I could never be like that. Willingly and freely accept the death of a loved one. Most people do not accept it too readily kraft. I think you are the one who is insane and cold. There is a difference, in accepting it, if you have to, when it faces you, to succumbing to it because somebody else says it must be so. I just dont do that. But it is something that is beyond medical science, and its like none of you have the capacity to friggin understand it? That's pathetic to me.(And I am not talking about a situation of a 98 year old man like the professor spoke about who has lived his life, and was trying to leave here.)
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[ edited by dblfugger9 on Jun 16, 2005 05:16 AM ]
