posted on September 22, 2000 03:35:17 PM
twinsoft - Well, maybe well just have to agree to disagree. I definitely see a possibilty of fear of retaliatory feedback. What has happened behind the scenes of this persons auctions will probably never be known. I base my opinion on the following:
There are 326 auctions in the past 30 days - I have no way of knowing how many auctions this person has had in the past but if his feedback is of any signicance in determining this, than we could say that he is averaging about 1 feedback for every 4 auctions he has. Using this formula (yes, it is faulted but I would think it signicant) we could say that he has had somewhere in the vacinity of 2000 auctions. Of course we have no way of knowing this for sure but I would feel comfortable in thinking it is a fair possiblility.
Now, out of these 2000 auctions, he has received 524 feedbacks. 496 positive, 16 neutral and 12 negative. And, out of these 2000 auctions, he has given out 541 feedback, 55 of which have been negative (or 10.166% or 1 out of 10.....seems a bit high to me). By looking at this persons techniques in leaving feedback, it is unlikely that he has left any neutral feedback but in the case that he did, I'll count it as a praise.
So what we have here is 524 feedbacks received and 541 left. Hmmm, pretty close numbers....where are the other 1500 feedbacks? I would think it most common for sellers to leave feedbacks for at least the majority of his buyers. It would appear that this seller is using the feedback process as a bargaining tool (i.e. you leave feedback for me and I'll leave feedback for you. Otherwise, you get no feedback from me).
Ok, now lets look at the neutral feedbacks he has received. There are 16 of them. Here are a few examples (the nicer ones):
smooth transaction. book in far worst shape than description. shipping cost too
Timely shipping. Item not misrepresented but not in as good cond. expected.
Item fine but I question the s/h costs. Otherwise no big deal. A
How did this seller respond to these neutral feedbacks? With negative feedbacks! Retaliation I say, and quite uncalled for! He has retaliated in this manner against everyone that has left him neutral feedback. This is this sellers modus-operandi....if you leave anything other than positive feedback, I'll neg you. And you don't think there is an issue of fear of retaliation involved here?
As if all of this isn't enough to fear retaliation, consider what is mentioned in some of the feedbacks and the attitude of this seller in his replies to feedback (and in his posts in this thread):
In response to buyer complaining about receiving his item in a used pizza box full of ants: Yeah, but your plate got there safe and sound. So what's the problem?
buyer: Rude seller - called me a b*&tch
seller: Don't like it? Then don't bid.
buyer: more damage than described, unwilling to resolve problem, rude, shipped in bag
buyer: He will not respond to my e-mail.
buyer: Hello.Lose the 'tude!
buyer: Big scammer. Told me he had to make $ somehow. Item mailed in newspaper. Rude
seller: He's a jerk.
Beginning to see a pattern here? It would appear that this seller has questionable ethics at best. He appears to be combative and confrontational and I would think that this personality probably appears in his communications with his buyers. Again, I see a great possiblity for fear of retaliation on the buyers part.
Sorry but I just don't see the possibility of "several thousand satisfied customers out there".
I agree with you that it is everyone's right to decide what feedback is appropriate. I just don't like to see people abusing the feedback process as this seller appearantly does.
You state that you are a seller who doesn't leave feedback until the buyer does. I disagree with this but it is your right to do this. As far as I'm concerned (as a seller), once I have received payment from a buyer (and it has cleared), the buyer has fulfilled his end of the obligation and I respond with appropriate feedback. No if's, and's or but's about it. His obligation is fulfilled and appropriate feedback is due him/her. I don't know your reasons for handling the feedback process in the manner in which you do and quite frankly, it's none of my business.... as long as it doesn't affect me.
My concerns with this particular seller is that his method of leaving feedback does affect me.... and you.... and every other ethical seller out there. I have read numerous stories of sellers who run across buyers who have bad attitudes towards buyers. I can't help but wonder if their dealings with sellers such as this one are at the root of their rudeness.
You state "I am a seller who doesn't leave feedback until after the customer. There are several reasons involved, but having the option to leave retaliatory negs is not one of them." But in the next paragraph you go on to say that if a customer leaves you a complaint that you feel is unfair that you respond in kind. Then further on you state that you "...only leave negative feedback in the most extreme cases. That sometimes includes customers who are unreasonable and leave undeserved complaints in my feedback file". This certainly sounds like retaliation to me and I'm beginning to wonder about your ethics as well. Maybe this is why you are so quick to defend this seller. If the customer has fulfilled his end of the obligation then why would you leave a complaint against him?
Again, the way I see it, when the customer fulfills his end of the bargain, appropriate feedback is due. If problems occur after the fact then I do my utmost to resolve them. I realize that occasionally a seller is going to run into an unreasonable seller and things happen. That's part of dealing with the public as a seller and I will just have to deal with it.
I also understand about the newbies leaving premature negative feedbacks. It has happened to me (it's my only neg) before. I feel the buyer jumped the gun and was too quick to leave a negative comment without giving me an oppurtunity to rectify the situation. I went way, way out of my way to try to appease this customer (which I would have done anyhow if he had just contacted me first). He went on to append the neg but it's still there and I'll deal with it. It's part of doing business with the public.
"Do we really need to crucify this seller over shipping in a cereal box?" No, not if it is an isolated incident, which, in this case, it is not. Yes, this seller needs to work on his people skills and professionalism but it's not the only thing he needs to work on (and this is what I feel most people on this thread are unhappy about). The way he behaves as a seller can affect all of us (sellers and buyers alike) and I for one cannot condone this type of behavior.
posted on September 22, 2000 03:35:53 PM
"Jacking up the shipping charge and not combining on shipping is a crappy way to run your business."
I guess I figure bidders are smart enough not to pay a shipping charge they don't want to pay.
I guess I figure no seller has any business passing judgment on another seller's shipping practices without having first pranced a mile in his moccasins.
I guess I'm one of the "crappy" ones, as I don't combine shipping, either. (And I refuse to justify this to anyone...make your own assumptions.)
posted on September 22, 2000 03:49:03 PM
FYI I've had about 1200 completed auctions, of those only about 900 probably ended up with a bidder. Seems like about 80 percent of my listed auctions sell, sometimes better sometimes worse than that.
posted on September 22, 2000 03:51:19 PM
If it makes you feel good to gouge someone then that is your business. Do you charge for each individual item them ship them together? If so, then yes, in my opinion it is crappy. Heather
posted on September 22, 2000 03:52:12 PM
If I were to bid on multiple items from a seller that refused to combine shipping (I never would) I would expect that ALL the items be shipped separately.
Amazon.com does just the opposite. When I order from Amazon and they figure my shipping If they cannot send all my items at once they will ship them separately, however they do not increase the cost of shipping. Last Christmas I received boxes from Amazon, and the actual shipping was 2 dollars more then what I paid.
posted on September 22, 2000 03:55:52 PM
While you are here, mboyko would you explain your motivation for leaving 3 separate NEGS on a bidders feedback file in response to the ONE NEUTRAL that bidder left you? This was the one regarding your refusal to combine shipping costs on the 3 auctions, yet shipping them together. Why did you not respond to the 1 NEUTRAL she left you on your feedback file instead of giving her 3 separate negs for each auction. Did you take particular delight in tarnishing her perfect record, which was higher than your own, by the way. Inquiring minds want to know.
posted on September 22, 2000 03:58:41 PM
I think the reason most of my customers are so happy with me is because I offer them such good prices. I start the majority of my items off at 1 cent + 3.20 s/h. That is a MAJOR bargain on some of these items. Other sellers sell similar items starting at 5.00, 9.99 or worse! Everything I buy to sell, I offer at COST! I hope it goes higher than cost but if not I sell it and move on. If it doesn't sell, then I drop it below cost. You will see that my opening prices and closing prices are probably lower than a lot of sellers, because I don't insist on getting top dollar or putting on reserves like most sellers. Even with my "ridiculously high" s/h fees (and the truth is most of my 3.20 s/h items cost exactly that to ship), buyers still get a great deal and they know it.
posted on September 22, 2000 04:01:38 PM
Why don't you answer the question and tell us why you would do that to a fellow ebay member? I bet you got some serious jollies out of leaving that bidder, who had over 500 positives and not one neg until you came along, three negatives. Heather
posted on September 22, 2000 04:04:18 PM
She left me 3 nasty neutrals. Those neutrals should have been filed under complaints. I think she used neutral because she figured I wouldn't give her a neg if she left a neutral. Boy was she wrong! I treat a complaint filed under a neg, neutral or positive all the same way: bottom line they are negative comments. If they are undeserved I will file a complaint against the offender, letting other sellers know that this individual doesn't agree to terms and is difficult to work with.
posted on September 22, 2000 04:10:58 PM
As I asked before, in the plate auction, did you state in the terms that the item would be shipped in a used pizza box? If not, I don't see how the buyer failed to agree to your terms.
Have you ever had one neutral or neg that you felt was justified and did not merit a negative in return?
posted on September 22, 2000 04:20:16 PM
If a customer has a legitimate gripe against me, usually we work it out before hand, I offer a full refund or partial refund. Then when we are both satisfied we exchange positive feedbacks. I have had several of those. I don't claim to be "always right". Complaining about packaging materials, as long as the item arrived safely, is not proper. Customer bought the item, it arrived in the condition described, end of story. I will not accept "I got the item in perfect condition, but didn't like the box it was shipped in."
posted on September 22, 2000 04:23:14 PM
My question to you, boyko was why you did not respond to her comments on your feedback file where they belonged. THAT is the proper use of transactional feedback, not the retaliatory feedback that you left. You are way out of line. You had no right to neg her. She sent you the money, and it appears that you didn't find her "difficult to deal with" until AFTER she left you neutral comments. Oh and she agreed to your terms, she paid your exorbitant shipping fees, what you felt was her "crime" was that she complained about it. Why are you not using the feedback function in the manner for which it is designed? You are clearly abusing it.
posted on September 22, 2000 04:27:14 PM
Are you nuts??!! It is perfectly "proper" to complain about receiving merchandised in a greasy used pizza box full of ants! You say the ants weren't there when you shipped it, but what did you expect? It's disgusting and unsanitary, and I would have negged you in a New York Minute. Get a clue, will ya?
posted on September 22, 2000 04:32:05 PM
Other sellers need to be warned away from problem buyers like her. I do it as a service to other sellers. All feedback must be transaction related, and if a customer is difficult to deal with, that is part of the transaction. If a customer does not agree to my terms, complains about s/h fees even though I stated upfront exactly what they would be, then other sellers need to know that this is a customer that will not honor your terms, be careful.
posted on September 22, 2000 04:38:29 PM
But she did honor your terms. So why did you neg her? You had no right. Are you saying you do not retaliate against neutral and negative comments? It is clear that you do. How can you defend this practice?
posted on September 22, 2000 04:43:47 PM
No one is going to change this sellers mind on the issues of shipping charges and leaving nasty feedbacks. I suspect he also is enjoying his 15 minutes of fame here on AW.
It would probably be best for everyone here to save their breath. After taking a look at the sellers past and current auctions, I doubt he will be in the selling game for the long haul.
posted on September 22, 2000 04:44:30 PM
You're fighting a losing battle, KatyD. Anyone who would buy from this seller after viewing his/her feedback profile deserves what they get. I wouldn't buy ANYTHING from this seller. What do you bet when priority rates increase, this seller's s/h rate increases to match the new priority rate?
posted on September 22, 2000 04:45:21 PMKatyD, excuse me. Out of the eight neutral comments you mention, at least three were left by the same bidder (and were worded as complaints). Exactly the criticism you make about the seller's practices. Also, you have absolutely no justification to assume that 1/4 of the bidders left feedback and the rest were dissatisfied. I think you are the one who needs to brush up on statistics, and a good course in logic. Your conclusion is NOT supported by the facts.
I have not looked through the seller's feedback. Out of the 450 or so, how many stated "paid for, not received" or "item not as described?" It sounds like most of the complaints in the profile are about shipping. At least the seller appears HONEST whatever you may think of the retaliatory feedback practices. I personally do not approve of them.
I find the seller's practices just slightly worse than the witch-hunt tactics practiced from time to time on this board. A user comes here with a justified beef (the outrageous email he/she received) and gets their head handed to them on a platter by veteran posters.
The seller did nothing illegal or immoral. Feedback is up to the user. Handling fees are allowed by eBay. Policy regarding multiple purchases is plainly spelled out in the ad. I would sincerely hope that posters here have something better to do than kvetch about feedback left by one stranger to another.
The seller made some mistakes, and I hope in the future she takes a more professional approach. Feedback as revenge is wrong. Using unsanitary shipping supplies is wrong. Now get over it.
Nokturnl, we have a different view of feedback. Feedback is not a reward ("buyer paid, so feedback is due, etc." ). Feedback is for the benefit of the community. A lot can happen after payment is received by the seller. Buyer can return item in damaged condition. Buyer can return item claiming it was not as represented. Buyer can pull a "switcheroo" and return a different item. A check can bounce. (I ship items immediately for checks under $20.) I sell software and I can tell you a buyer can load the program on their computer, then claim the software doesn't work and demand a refund. Free software for him, and the seller is stuck with no money and an opened package. (Even the retail stores don't allow this!)
All of these instances require, in my opinion, a note in the buyer's feedback record. A neutral comment, simply to insure that the buyer can't continue scamming, if by chance this was a scam. But a seller can't leave feedback if they have already posted "He paid fast."
As far as my own practices, if I feel a customer is rude and unreasonable, I will leave negative feedback. If a customer has spoiled the deal by leaving what I consider to be unfair negative feedback, they might (and probably will) get the same from me. That includes failing to abide by the terms of the ad. I recently received a complaint because I wouldn't take the winner's check on a $200 item. The ad plainly stated "money orders or Paypal only." That customer got a neg back from me. I probably wouldn't have left one, even for non-payment. Her "first-strike" complaint earned her one from me.
If your perspective is, "once payment is received, the buyer's responsibility is finished" then we're not on the same wavelength. Here's an example: the last negative feedback I had to leave. I shipped the item on 9/11. Customer contacted me on 9/20 asking about the package. After a couple of emails, I responded "if the item doesn't arrive within 30 days, I will send an insurance form and issue you a refund upon return receipt." The suspect the customer lied several times, including his claim to be a lawyer and that he had already bought a similar item elsewhere, but I remained polite. Then the buyer threatened that if I didn't give him a refund within 24 hours, he would contact the state attorney general, etc. By this time, the emails were becoming abusive. He also used four different email addresses to send his threats, because I was blocking his emails.
I offered this guy a refund, all he had to do was sign his name to the insurance form. Now, he's writing to my customers and accusing me of fraud. If ever a customer deserved a neg, it's that guy. And the trouble started AFTER I got his payment. In this case, it doesn't matter WHO left feedback first. Ironically, the one complaint in his feedback profile (from a buyer, out of 20 comments total) stated "item not received, no refund received." Apparently, he has ripped off other users before.
I'll stick with my method. If you want feedback, it's very simple. Leave feedback letting me know the deal is finished, drop me a line, and you will get positive feedback from me.
posted on September 22, 2000 04:53:12 PM
You call them a problem buyer when they had over 500 transactions and not a single complaint before you ruined it? Heather
posted on September 22, 2000 04:59:31 PM
I stand by my conclusions, Twinsoft. But then byjudging your own "sterling" feedback history I can see why you would think mboyko is such a superb seller. Stastistically, factoring in the number of completed auctions in the past month, his posted feedback is exceptionally low for his activity. That, combined with his practice of retaliatory negatives, is obviously encouraging his bidders to keep their mouths shut when it comes to commenting on his shoddy practices. But seeing as how you don't see anything wrong with retaliation, and by your own admission, practice it as well, I can see why you would be dazzled by this seller's business acumen.
Meya and london4, you are both exactly right. It's like talking to a brick wall.
The porch light is on, but nobody's home.
posted on September 22, 2000 04:59:45 PM
twinsoft - Everyone has different opinions on how to run their business. Mine works for me (so far) and I would guess that yours is working for you. You come across as a very nice person and I'm sure that you are. As I said before, I quess that we can agree to disagree :^).
posted on September 22, 2000 05:10:16 PM
What is this, the McCarthy Hearings? If you profit on s/h or leave negatives, you are "evil, un-american" and need to be exposed? You people scare me. You are way too worked up about nothing. I'm an honest seller. I do exactly what I say I am going to do in my TOS. I always deliver the merchandise that has been bought and paid for. What is so bad about that?
posted on September 22, 2000 05:31:05 PM
Someone please (and I ask this in all sincerity) tell me why it is so bad to charge a handling fee, even a large one, if you are upfront about it. I can see being upset if it is hidden but this seller couldn't say it any more plain. If people still choose to bid how does that make the seller wrong or bad in any way?
I understand many of you would not do that yourselves or bid on an auction of that nature but still if he is upfront about what he is charging then I see nothing wrong with it.
I'm deliberatly ignoring the ants in the pizza box for a moment just because I really want an answer to this question.
Oddish~ The Odd One
posted on September 22, 2000 05:39:01 PM
mboyko - Ok, lets try a different approach. As I stated to twinsoft, everyone has different opinions on how to handle their business. If you are happy with yours, then fine, continue on. If the feedback (or lack thereof) that people have left for you, doesn't bother you, then by all means, keep doing what you are doing. On the other hand, if you want to improve your customer relations and your reputation on eBay (if it's not already too late) then you might want to heed some of the comments made by people on this thread. It is very possible that the reason for some of your low bids (which are causing you to lose money) is due to your feedback. When an "alert" potential buyer checks out your feedback prior to making a bid he will more than likely think twice about bidding on your item and may not bid at all. This could be costing you lots of bids (and profit). I'm sure that if you want to improve your sales, the people on this board would be more than happy to help you out. All you have to do is ask what you need to do. It's up to you.
posted on September 22, 2000 05:51:23 PM
My profit has been very good. I am able to buy stuff extremely cheap, so I can afford to sell if for less and not price gouge like some sellers. On my higher priced items, I get just as much as other sellers that I have looked at, so I'm not worried. It's more the "low traffic" items that I am willing to sell for less. For instance, I noticed many sellers charge 9.99 for license plates and end up with 1 bid or no bidders. I am more than happy to sell mine for 5.00 and end up with one bid. As far as my lack of feedback, out of 900 auctions that ended with bidders, I have about 470 positives. From what I understand, that is a good response rate. I think I get a lot of people to give positive feedback because I offer them bargain prices unlike other sellers.
posted on September 22, 2000 05:57:51 PM
oddish4 - I don't really think it's so much about him not not being upfront about the shipping charges. Some of his auctions are very misleading. When he states that shipping is $3.20 (which just so happens to be the price of priority shipping), people are going to think that he is going to ship priority mail. Sure he says his shipping rates may be higher than actual shipping but it appears that he is intentionally misleading people. Then there are the instances where he won't combine shipping charges yet he ships all items in the same box. This is clearly taking advantage of the buyers. If they have to pay seperate shipping charges, shouldn't they expect seperate packages? Maybe I'm wrong but to me he clearly seems to be taking advantage of folks. Also, if you are paying considerably more than actual shipping charges, wouldn't you expect decent packaging. I know I would and I would think others would too. He wants to use the excuse that "hey, it got to them all in one piece so why should they care if I use poor packaging". I say it's because they paid for it. I know lots of sellers that charge a little extra for packaging and even a little for gas (heck, I'm one of them) and they don't get complaints such as this. It would seem appearant that this seller is doing something out of the ordinary that are upsetting his customers.
posted on September 22, 2000 06:00:35 PM
The large majority of my customers are happy and satisfied. About 98 %, that is not bad at all. The others are angry because they failed to read or though I would not enforce my TOS, I guess.
