posted on July 3, 2005 07:42:03 AM
::It surprises me that you would find my comment "funny to see", fenix. I thought that was only Linda's tactic.::
Oh get off it Helen. You know exactly what I am saying, don't try to lump me in with someone you dislike just because I disagree with you. You know damn well thatI ewas using "funny" in it's more ironic meaning than humorous but then you just couldn't make some little sniping comment.
::The fact that your few girls in the salon agree with Cosby is an indication of their lack of education and resignation to the status quo::
They disagree with you so they must be ignorant of the realites of the community that they live exist and work with everyday. How is it that you know more about this community than those within it?
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
No, I'm saying -- I'm merely -- I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't know why I'm always having people say, are you trying to say -- you know what you can do if you want to know what I'm saying is listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is what I said ...
"You have yet to make your point helenjw, all you have done is yourself insult the very people you claim to be supporting."While entitled to your opinion, it is refreshing to see a black leader stand up and tell people that they need to take some responsibility for their situations. It is a step in the right direction and it should make some wonder why somone would not like to see these people better themselves?"
WashingtonBayer, After reading several of your inane comments it's not surprising to me that you fail to comprehend that it's Cosby who has insulted the black race by using such offensive and negative remarks as the one that I quoted. My remarks are in defense of those blacks who have been discriminated against and denied a good education. By calling his offensive remarks "refreshing" you reveal your lack of understanding and your lack of sensitivity.
posted on July 3, 2005 10:12:19 AM "They disagree with you so they must be ignorant of the realites of the community that they live exist and work with everyday. How is it that you know more about this community than those within it?"
It's silly to think that only members of a community are able to understand that community and how it is affected by the society in which it is found. That kind of thinking reminds me of those who think that only soldiers can understand the military. Sometimes, the members of a community are the least informed as your story of the salon girls illustrates.
posted on July 3, 2005 11:34:11 AM
::It's silly to think that only members of a community are able to understand that community and how it is affected by the society in which it is found.::
I did not say that you were unable to understand it. I just marveled at the arrogance of you stating that those that do live within it and have a very good understanding of their culture and disagree with you must be ignorant.
Maggie - There is a big difference between empathy and condescension. Personally I think that saying that those within the black community that recognize some of the problems are not insulted when someone points them out are too stupid and uneducated to know they are being insulted falls into the latter.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
No, I'm saying -- I'm merely -- I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't know why I'm always having people say, are you trying to say -- you know what you can do if you want to know what I'm saying is listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is what I said ...
posted on July 3, 2005 11:56:31 AM
Fenix.. I was referring to Ron's callous interpretation of Helen's opinion. He twisted her empathy into something ugly.
posted on July 3, 2005 12:11:46 PM "I did not say that you were unable to understand it. I just marveled at the arrogance of you stating that those that do live within it and have a very good understanding of their culture and disagree with you must be ignorant."
It's not arrogance, Fenix. It's your "opinion" that those girls have a good understanding of their culture. It's mine that they do not because if they did, they would see their predicament as not entirely created by the inability of poor blacks to take personal responsibility but rather by structure, racism and class.
posted on July 3, 2005 12:21:46 PM
Ron took helen's statement in the same way I did. She's always condesending to those who actually KNOW what's really going on in the black community, like Bill Cosby.
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don't try to lump me in with someone you dislike just because I disagree with you.
helen dislikes me? well...that just PROVES you can't see the way things really are. lol
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helen why don't you explain to us, your opinion about just what keeps a black child from staying in school so that they do have a better chance to get out of their poverty than a white child.
If we can't force them to stay in school then what do YOU propose we do...besides just feel sorry for them because they're victims of whatever you think their victims of.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on July 3, 2005 01:18:02 PM
Fenix, the kids running around with Vuitton bags are doing so because they're uneducated, and I don't mean lack of schooling. It's up to the parents to teach them about finances, birth control, etc. If they don't, the chain continues. That's the education I'm talking about. Knowing a lot about history and science does nothing to educate poor people in regards to how to get out of poverty and stop having babies. If kids aren't taught this, starting at a young age, how do we expect them to pass on these values to their children?
The main reason for aid is to feed the poor, so in my mind, if these people stopped having kids they can't afford and educate, the problem will take care of itself.
posted on July 3, 2005 01:36:47 PM
I have been giving a great deal of thought to Fenix's post on the mothers who are hairdressers and their children have designer clothes. My thought is that these mothers are enablers instead of being mothers. It is easier to give them everything than to discipline. They need to put their foot down and teach these girls right from wrong instead of giving them everything they want. Now I don't object to giving children clothes and such to keep in style but go to walmart or Target. Teach these girls that there is more in life than clothes and babies. Obviously one girl is smart but stupid because she doesn't take her birth control pills. I don't consider that smart.
About the birth control, take them to planned parenthood and get the shot that lasts the year.
That is the only solution if they are sexually active. The US doesn't need anymore preteen unwed mothers that have no fathers that can support them.
posted on July 3, 2005 01:42:47 PM
helen - you're so focused on pretending to be a school teacher, that you must have overlooked the question put to you.
Or are you STILL in the mode where YOU don't answer questions, but point out when others don't either?
helen why don't you explain to us, your opinion about just what keeps a black child from staying in school so that they do have a better chance to get out of their poverty than a white child.
If we can't force them to stay in school then what do YOU propose we do...besides just feel sorry for them because they're victims of whatever you think their victims of[/i].
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on July 3, 2005 01:48:41 PMIt's up to the parents to teach them about finances, birth control, etc. If they don't, the chain continues. That's the education I'm talking about.
KD, we ALL see the problem...it's solutions we need.
What would YOU propose doing to break this chain? What would YOU propose doing about all the out-of-wedlock babied? What would YOU propose doing about keeping them in school so they CAN at least have an opportunity to have some chance in life?
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on July 3, 2005 01:56:56 PM
::They need to put their foot down and teach these girls right from wrong instead of giving them everything they want.::
To be fair here Libra - I don't know how her friends buy her clothes, but the girl that I know that falls into that position has to pay for half of her clothes. She helps out in the salon and prepping her moms customers after school and on weekends. When she is a senior she'll have to pay 75%. Mom may spoil, but she can also be a shrewd business woman.
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No, I'm saying -- I'm merely -- I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't know why I'm always having people say, are you trying to say -- you know what you can do if you want to know what I'm saying is listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is what I said ...
posted on July 3, 2005 01:58:16 PM
BTW - There is no such thing as "staying in style" and "shopping at Walmart".
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
No, I'm saying -- I'm merely -- I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't know why I'm always having people say, are you trying to say -- you know what you can do if you want to know what I'm saying is listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is what I said ...
posted on July 3, 2005 02:32:02 PM
Linda, there's something about being human and believing you have a right to have children no matter what the circumstances are. I also want to say this problem is not limited to any race. We have to start teaching young children that having a family is only one option to choose from, not the only one. As I said before, if people won't use their brains by doing the math before they have children, society will eventually have makes laws to limit the number of children they have. It's like all the laws to date - they're only made for stupid people and having a child you can't afford is stupid.
posted on July 3, 2005 04:24:47 PM
No Linda, it appears that some here do not see the problem or at least are closing thier eyes to solutions that would help alleviate the problem.
Helen's comments about Dr. Cosby were callous and unsympathetic, but then again some people in this country need thier "victims" or they don't have a purpose in life.
posted on July 3, 2005 04:37:04 PM
What I think Bill Cosby needs to do is talk with everyone instead of just the black population. This is a problem that is faced in any lower income family whether, black, white or Hispanic.
Again, to stop the children having babies, and the parents can't do it, planned parenthood is the place to go. Children and young adults think they know everything and until they reach the age of realizing that they don't know everything someone has to stop them.
Maybe an organization like Salvation Army, can take on the task of helping with the help of the community. Make it an awareness for the betterment of the children. Try and get donations, civil groups, women's leagues, big brothers, big sisters, churches and just volunteers that want to help these young people. There would be no color or race barrier.
Schools can't do it because parents don't want teachers teaching sex education as they want to do it themselves. Great job they are doing right.
Fenix I still think she is an enabler and she needs to teach that girl, even though that girl works, that spending her money on those items is wrong and she is doing a disservice to herself and her friends.
posted on July 3, 2005 04:50:19 PM
I couldn't agree more, Libra. Saying this is a "black" issue does nothing but alienate the very people he's talking about.
The first step is making birth control free to any girl that can have a baby. I don't see any other way.
posted on July 3, 2005 06:58:09 PM
ok, from my first post, I said I believed what Cosby is doing is good.
And I still believe he is trying to do good. Its as simple as that, everyone should take responsibility for their actions. Everyone; blacks, whites, asians, whoever.
posted on July 3, 2005 08:07:15 PM
Imo, the reason Cosby is focusing his attention on blacks, rather than all races is because they are the race that is failing it's youth in the largest way.
When you just compare the high school graduation rates in CA and see the stats say only 40-50% of their race is even graduating from school, they're dropping out....you pretty much know they're headed down a guaranteed path of poverty. The stat for whites graduating high school in CA is bad enough - at 69% - but I believe that's why he's putting focus on his own race....why he's trying to make a difference with them.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on July 3, 2005 08:56:24 PM
I think it is much more simple than that. He is a black man speaking to the black community. No one else could say those words to that community no matter how how true they know them to be. If a white, latino or an asian leader came out and said these things people would shut down and not listen. Same would happen if a black man went to the latino or asian communities and told them to get their act in gear.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
No, I'm saying -- I'm merely -- I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't know why I'm always having people say, are you trying to say -- you know what you can do if you want to know what I'm saying is listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is what I said ...
posted on July 3, 2005 08:59:05 PM
::The first step is making birth control free to any girl that can have a baby. I don't see any other way.::
You can put it in candy dishes at the end of the lunch line Krafty but if these girls don't make the decision that don't want to get pregnant it wont do a damn bit of good. The first step is not providing birth control, the first step is establishing a desire to use it.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
No, I'm saying -- I'm merely -- I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't know why I'm always having people say, are you trying to say -- you know what you can do if you want to know what I'm saying is listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is what I said ...
posted on July 4, 2005 07:44:49 AM
What does being black have to do with the discussion at hand?
Does that mean only veterans or people in the military can discuss military subjects?
This seems to be the mantra here when someone can't join the discussion on some basis.
You must be gay to discuss gay issues? How about give your opinion about the subject matter?
posted on July 4, 2005 08:09:32 AMWhat does being black have to do with the discussion at hand?
Ron, you dont have to be black/gay/military/white/religious to discuss a subject but unless you "belong" to a particular group that is being discussed you don't really know what it is like being "part of" that group, what it was like growing up in that culture. Your opinions/beliefs are only that, opinions/beliefs.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
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President George Bush: "Over time the truth will come out."
President George Bush: "Our people are going to find out the truth, and the truth will say that this intelligence was good intelligence. There's no doubt in my mind."
Bush was right. The truth did come out and the facts are he misled Congress and the American people about the reasons we should go to war in Iraq.
posted on July 4, 2005 12:04:06 PM
I never thought anyone here was posting more than opinion.
But we could have two different Blacks posting and because each one has a different up bringing and backgrounds we could have one agreeing and one disagreeing, does that make Dr. Cosby's comments any less justified?
Speaking of silence, how are your brethern in Mexico getting along with their new stamps profe?
lol
