posted on July 4, 2005 12:35:21 PM new
The issues surrounding poverty are quite complex, especially when dealing with generational poverty.
No one, nomatter how well meaning, can change an entire group merely by stating, "Hey! Look at yourselves! C'mon! Deal with it! Change!"
I've been a teacher for nearly twenty years, working at an all-minority school on Long Island and on a Native reservation. I have seen the results of generational poverty.
There is an entire culture of poverty and how those living in poverty survive. The values of poverty are not the same as the values of the middle class (or even the upper class). Most of us, growing up with 'middle class' values certainly cannot understand the values of those living in poverty.
If you're interested, I would highly recommend a book by Dr. Ruby Payne called A Framework for Understanding Poverty. It certainly doesn't offer any solutions, but helped me put into context some of the things my students did.
I've often asked myself: is it my job to instill 'middle class' values on my students? Or even to show them that there are other value systems? Especially knowing that many -- if not all -- of my students may never leave the reservation.
Poverty (and I'm taking this information from the Ruby Payne book, by the way) has many components, from financial to emotional to physical. It also has certain strengths that we may or may not understand.
It isn't helpful to argue what 'they' should stop doing, because what 'they' do is contrary to the logic of the middle class value system. Nothing would make me happier than to not have teenagers having babies (currently in a high school of 115 students, 7 girls are pregnant, another 6 are already mothers, and 10 boys are fathers). It tears me up inside because I know that many of my students aspire to something more.
However, merely vaguely wanting something and not planning or making changes in behavior is just having a fantasy.
So what's the solution? I don't have any answers. I just keep on keeping on. I push, pull, cajole, beg, and fight to keep my students in school (drop out rates among Native Americans is quite high; I think around 50%). And then? I don't know.
But I still feel that fighting is worth the effort.
Sorry if what I typed makes little sense. It's a complicated issue, and soundbites won't solve it. Soundbites merely make news clips.
---Skorpio
Overheard at the mall: "A fish is NOT a pet. It's a decoration that happens to be alive."
posted on July 4, 2005 12:38:14 PM new
Hi Maggie! <wavey smilie> I've been around. But keeping busy mostly -And you stop talken to me! lol!!! You always want to talk to me about sh* from years ago~~~Like when I stole youre ex's heart....ha!!ha! ha!!(Which one was that btw No #2 or No.#3?)But I've moved on maggie girl!-ya got it? ok good.
.
[ edited by dblfugger9 on Jul 4, 2005 12:46 PM ]
posted on July 4, 2005 12:49:37 PM new
I'm sorry, I don't understand this reply
WashingtoneBayer
posted on July 4, 2005 07:44:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does being black have to do with the discussion at hand?
Does that mean only veterans or people in the military can discuss military subjects?
This seems to be the mantra here when someone can't join the discussion on some basis.
You must be gay to discuss gay issues? How about give your opinion about the subject matter?
I don't know what being in the military or gay has to do with being black and all I asked was is anyone here black. didn't mean to get somone upset or defensive.
I don't think you have to be black to discuss this issue but a little research would show that racial discrimination against blacks is alive and well in America. The playing field is not all that level. And until you've experienced it personally you can't comprehend its effect.
posted on July 4, 2005 01:20:32 PM new
Just wondering how you've been.. you sounded kind of down in the dumpers there for a while.
Hope the car is fixed, and you are getting out and about again. Welcome to midlife crises mode..who am I, what have I accomplished, is that all there is, what I still need to do etc..etc.. Maggie
If there is one thing I have learned.. it is this.. ignorance is bliss.. it's only when you begin to learn a little..that you realize how much you don't know..
posted on July 4, 2005 01:52:53 PM newWelcome to midlife crises mode...
hahaha,Maggie!
You know, I just read that quote somewhere the other day about the more you learn the more you realize you really dont know. Kinda deep there, maggs!
Doing okay. Trying to push it and sell some of this stuff I got here on ebay...but ebay is pretty pitiful for sales these days (good for buyers I suppose) limping along but getting there...I need to sell keychains or teeshirts or DVD's or something. It takes so long doing all different collectables.
How are you Maggie, how was your trip? Glad to be back? (I'm always glad to go and glad to get back )
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.fix quote, etc
.
[ edited by dblfugger9 on Jul 4, 2005 01:59 PM ]
posted on July 4, 2005 02:30:12 PM new
Glad to hear you are doing okay!
The trip was loads of fun, stress,laughs, and tears....and it was so good to return home!
We attended a Renaissance Wedding up in Canada and it was so much fun..but we decided to drive up and stop to visit friends and relatives on the way..so we (hubby and I) were trapped together in my little sports car for 2800 miles.. Of course this was total insanity.. the result of which has left me with a permanent right eye twitch!
But the good news is we are still together, no papers filed etc.. so all in all it was a success..
posted on July 4, 2005 05:39:49 PM new
SkorpioGal - I enjoyed your post.
Mingotree (SAYING IT LOUD) I'm black and I'm proud!
Hope I don't start WWIII here, but it appears to me that there is an underlying theme in many of the posts in this thread that the white way is the right way. Among blacks one of the worst insults you can hurl is to say something along the lines of he/she thinks he's/she's white. As long as things like excelling in school and building wealth (in ways that don't include celibrity or crime) are perceived as acting white, it's going to be a slow uphill climb to change the cycle of poverty on a large scale.
posted on July 4, 2005 06:03:53 PM new
KD - I have mixed opinions. I've been rather disgusted with Bill Cosby ever since he pushed to get his daughter sent to jail.
On the subject at hand, I find him condescending and insulting. Even though at the core, I don't disagree with some of his points.
posted on July 4, 2005 06:22:06 PM new
Thanks Cherished. I don't know... I just find his sterotyping and generalization almost at the level of gloating - like he knows the real score compared to most blacks on the planet. What kind of example is that?
posted on July 4, 2005 06:30:29 PM new
I don't remember all the details - but it's an illegitimate daughter. At the time it wasn't widely known that she was his daughter even though they did have a relationship. She wanted money and threatened to expose the truth about her being his daughter.
He said no to the money and pressed charges, she ended up in prison for extortion. Of course, it came out in that she really was his daughter. I'm not suggesting that he should have given in to her demands, but I never understood why he felt it was necessary to push it as far as he did.
posted on July 4, 2005 08:44:40 PM new
Gasp......maybe, just maybe mind you, she broke the law? And it was the valid way to get out of her conniving clutches?
posted on July 4, 2005 08:56:16 PM new
Krafty - as to what "his daughter" tried to do.... a week after his son Ennis was killed in LA (and his dead body was being shown and identified by a TV station before anyone informed Cosby his son was dead) two people, one claiming to be his illigitmate daughter were arrested for extorion. They were trying to get $40 million out of him in exchange for not going to the tabloids but he brought officials in immediately, they listened in or represented him in the "negotiation" that brought it down to $24 million and then arrested her. As for her being his daughter. He acknowledges that he did have a relationship with her mother and could be her father and offered a DNA sample for paternity testing however SHE refused to have the test done. So basically it was not his daughter, it was a woman claiming to be his daughter that was looking for a free ride.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
No, I'm saying -- I'm merely -- I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't know why I'm always having people say, are you trying to say -- you know what you can do if you want to know what I'm saying is listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is what I said ...
- Ann Coulter
[ edited by fenix03 on Jul 4, 2005 08:57 PM ]
You think he's gloating because he's rich, he's made it - like that?
At one time he was an alcoholic and in pretty rough shape himself when he was younger. I think he's saying, not all black people, but too many he sees in the black community no longer have strong family values. I think when you're looking at a certain segment of society, and it does involve poverty cycles - that although you can easily see a big segment of that class holds a large majority of people of color, its not JUST black people, so you have a point there, kraft. But I also think the upper class in this country still have a way to go adjusting their pre-conceived notions of people of color and poor people in general. My opinion for what its worth ...:0
posted on July 4, 2005 09:48:23 PM new
I missed ya too, dbl.
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And on the family values issue...I couldn't agree more. There's no way a young teenage girl can support a child/children as well as TWO parents working together could do.
A big part of the poverty problem...no matter the race IS all the out-of-wedlock children. It's hard enough to raise children when there are two parents doing so....and almost impossible when there's only one...having many children. And until this is again looked at as a *value*...nothing's going to change.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on July 5, 2005 02:51:59 AM new
Mingotree - I wasn't trying to make it sound like you said anything - I was just answering your "are any of you Black?" question.
posted on July 5, 2005 06:43:02 AM new
"Considered White"
Wouldn't it be better served to get over the "white" "black" syndrome and excel at what some of us call "life"?
Unfortunately people will never stop judging someone by thier "cover", whether it be skin or other.
posted on July 5, 2005 06:58:04 AM newUnfortunately people will never stop judging someone by thier "cover", whether it be skin or other
This forum is a great example. Think of those who have built their own misconstrued or inaccurate 'covers' for others and that's the only way they judge them here and the only way they respond to them.
If they are so willing to do that with a complete stranger on a message or chat board I can only wonder how they judge others within their own communities or anywhere else in this world.
posted on July 5, 2005 06:58:14 AM new
You're absolutely right , Ron, discrimination is alive and well. I read a recent study that showed that resume's were chosen on how "white" the names sounded, any odd or "ethnic" names were discarded.
Easy for some to say "just work harder".
posted on July 5, 2005 07:24:17 AM newmingotree asks: and all I asked was is anyone here black.
Are you?
Or is this a question YOU asked, but don't wish to answer yourself?
---------
mingotree also states:
I read a recent study that showed that resume's were chosen on how "white" the names sounded, any odd or "ethnic" names were discarded.
What "STUDY" showed this information? Do you have any links to inform us of just which person/group did this "study"?....or is this just someone's opinion?
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on July 5, 2005 08:25:26 AM new
Lindak I'm sorry you're so angry and defensive but there really is no need to be. You obviously don't care to answer the question so don't, what's the problem? I asked a question, didn't make a demand as you seem to be doing.
I don't respond well to demands so will answer what I choose and when. I also don't feel the need to go before a "court" to back up my statements. I believe them to be true and until you can prove otherwise I will hold to them.
If you're trying to say that discrimination is just an opinion, I'm sorry, but that just isn't true and until you've been discriminated against you can't understand it.
posted on July 5, 2005 10:32:27 AM newOkay...I'm all confused...what is this conversation about now?
Bill Cosby's comments? Poverty in America? Discrimination?
My recent trip to Canada? DBL's being missed?
Cosby's illegitimate child? Vuitton bags? Bad Parenting? Unwed mothers? Who's Black? Who's white? Who's Hispanic? Or ALL THE ABOVE?
posted on July 5, 2005 11:35:15 AM new
hahaha maggie! -All of the above! But you forgot to add and just who is mingotree??
Out of the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks.
- Proverb
Out of a dog's mouth will never come ivory tusks.
- Proverb, (Chinese)
A friend of mine also was telling me the other day that they are now using your credit score/rating to determine your insurance rate?? I dont think that is very fair at all. What does your credit have to do with your driving record? I havent had a chance to check it out yet, but I think I will. That doesnt sound right at all.
.
[ edited by dblfugger9 on Jul 5, 2005 11:37 AM ]
posted on July 5, 2005 12:00:37 PM new
LindaK, I've been just lurking for a little while and your posts do come across as very angry and more than a little nasty what with all the bolding, and smilie and LOL things.
No one else seems to do that much.
Your statement -Oh....I see, you just ASK the questions, but aren't going to answer any yourself...as in discuss anything put to you. got it now._
Came across as demanding and sarcastic. I read the Vendio guidelines and they don't co-incide with yours at all.
Don't you think that the issue of discrimination is more important than you getting your feelings hurt?
This topic is 6 pages long: 1new2new3new4new5new6new
-And you stop talken to me! lol!!! You always want to talk to me about sh* from years ago~~~Like when I stole youre ex's heart....ha!!ha! ha!!(Which one was that btw No #2 or No.#3?)But I've moved on maggie girl!-ya got it? ok good.
Maggie
