posted on August 19, 2000 07:41:39 AM
The quilts in question have been available in major stores for several years now. They are hand quilted but machine made. The only problem with them are in the ones with dark blue dyes - they will run even if laundered in cold water.
I know it has been said that collectors were originally very concerned about these quilts but I don't see how. A fine quilt is usually determined by the number of stiches per inch (more stitchers = better) and these quilts have loose stiching with a very low number of stitches per inch. I think that folks who know quilts and buy them judge a quilt by the craftsmanship, skill and materials used. You get what you pay for. You can purchase large Made in China quilts for 100 bucks or less. I just bought one at a yard sale for 4.00. They are decent quilts but are not top quality.
I do think the buyer should have put the country of origin in his ad but I also think the time to question the seller is prior to bidding and not after you win the item. As ebay always reminds us - caveat emptor.
Quilts are an area that requires a lot of info or a lot of questions to be asked. If I would see an ad such as the one discussed here, I would automatically have bells go off that it is Made in China. I think sellers should be honest but I also think that buyers (bidders) need to be more informed or ask questions if they are not.
I am curious as to the price paid - is it comensurate with what decent Made in China quilts sell for?
Regardless of the outcome, I wish Mrs. Sgtmike good luck in her future buying and collecting.
krs
I can always depend on you to make me and sometimes to .
[ edited by nobs on Aug 19, 2000 07:43 AM ]
posted on August 19, 2000 09:37:40 AM
I think your wife needs to pay the seller, but if she can return it if dissatisfied, why worry about it?
On the other hand if it's one of those "all sales final" then she can leave the appropriate feedback, but your wife still won a quilt. Not you.
I can see why you didn't post this in the EO, lol
Ain't Life Grand...
I did not post my question in the EO because the matter is not specific to (just) eBay.
eBay's Caveat Emptor or a seller's desires does not (always) justify an act in their favor. As I said earlier, too many sellers use the process (send email if you have questions) for deceptive reasons or the seller is just too damn lazy to prepare a proper ad. I call it the "garage sale" mentality.
There is particular information that is germane to any item and if known should be included in the ad. I do not support people being taken advantage of and the incontestable defense being, "If you had asked, I would have told you." A rule or expectation is not always reasonable and/or practical just because it exists..
In this matter I have a personal quarrel with the pre and post-sale conditions. However, this matter and many like it should be of crucial interest to sellers who sell consistently and/or their livelihood is directly dependent upon online auctions.
Many of the online auction restrictions and exclusions that now exist regarding what can be sold, how it can be sold, what conditions must be afforded the buyer by the seller or the seller by the buyer, TOS stipulations, etc., were brought about by (some) sellers and buyers acting recklessly, negligently, and criminally in the online auction arena. Once government agencies, regardless what level, get involved in "house cleaning," the end of something pleasurable and uncomplicated is imminent
The FTC (Federal Trade Commission) now focuses on online auctions to the point they have instructive materials and laws directly applicable. They (FTC) generally hold sales on online auction sites to the same mandate as they do your local K-Mart.
Since 1995 I have, on occasions, run into sellers who stand behind a "bully pulpit," and I know there are many more (sellers) who mistakenly believe they are the roosters in the yard. I carry an axe and a chopping block just in case I meet one.
posted on August 19, 2000 01:53:49 PM
Yes, it is very curious that the Sarge chose not to post in the EO where he would get wider audience for his preaching.
posted on August 19, 2000 01:55:20 PM
Speaking of a "bully pulpit". Geeze.
Seems Like Sarge had his mind made up when he posted, and only posted to state his views about us cock-o-the-walk sellers!
Axe in hand, huh? Seems like a confrontational attitude, if you ask me.
Does Sarge also walk through the bad part of town in a good suit, with 100 dollar bills hanging out of his pocket, and a 45 caliber in his shoulder holster looking for a chance to pop a cap into someone?
Sarge: why use your wife's on line activities as bait for your own "looking for a fight" attitude?
posted on August 19, 2000 01:59:52 PM
I, as a buyer, am (simply) following suit. In the beginning the online auction environment (was) a huge Internet garage sale and expectations were in accordance.
Things have drastically changed. Sellers began to (appropriately) require more stringent terms and penalties, but then started getting carried away. I am a strong advocate of "What is good for the goose is good for the gander."
posted on August 19, 2000 02:13:37 PM
Twelvepole brings it up, yet right after, Sarge again says "I, as a buyer".
Sarge, you aren't the buyer. Your wife is the buyer. You, it would seem, haven't bought since 1997. (you stated your auction related buying and selling occured within that period)
Your wife didn't "ask all questions before bidding", your wife was happy until you jumped in with your "confrontation ready, axe in hand" attitude.
Are you really ready to be the cause of her getting her very first negative feedback?
posted on August 19, 2000 02:16:44 PM
Ever watch hypocrisy in motion or wonder if (you) might be a hypocrite? Go read all the threads where seller's gather and lambaste buyers. Is your shoe on the other foot?
Appears we (also) have some Democrats present. The argument being presented is too valid for them to invalidate or debase so they want to change the argument to what forum should be used or whom should be presenting the argument.
posted on August 19, 2000 02:29:04 PM
OK, "sanctimony". If a seller requires it and the site's TOS supports it, it must be holy and found in the Ten Commandments.
posted on August 19, 2000 02:48:44 PM
Sanctified! That right, Sarge.
If I state it in my TOS, and it's legal on the site, it IS the 10 commandments.
You will do whatever you want, and this thread is a pulpit for your openly stated "chopping block ready axe in hand" confrontational "get one over on the seller" attitude.
Why not invite the seller over here to take a "gander" (in keeping with the farmyard birds metaphors) at what you have wrought? Direct your wrath against the seller in question! Call him on the carpet, right here!
As seller, before you espouse and believe that your TOS or the site's TOS is set in concrete, I suggest you read Section 5 of the Federal Trade Commission Act and the Magnuson-Moss Act.
Once you do, in-depth, then come back and tell me "If I state it in my TOS, and it's legal on the site, it IS the 10 commandments" again. That would be material for a new and lively thread.
posted on August 19, 2000 03:50:27 PMSgtmike
I don't know how well you know me or what I post but I am a HUGE advocate of bidder confidence and I am always posting about bringing BACK bidder confidence by writing complete and honest descriptions, charging fair shipping and catering to your bidders and had you been my bidder - I would have told you that if you're uncomfortable completing the transaction because of some pertinant fact I did not disclose then I would be happy to cancel it (of course I try to disclose EVERYTHING about my items and I mean EVERYTHING). But your wife was not my bidder.
Now, if I was in your wifes shoes (or any dissatisfied bidder) I would be very careful to read the ads in their entirety, ask questions and PASS on the auction before bidding if I felt that some pertinent info was not forthcoming.
While I believe you when you say you feel the bidder purposely left out the country of origin on the quilt - I am not sure that raises to the level of fraud but if you feel he is misrepresenting his items, then it is up to you to take what you feel is appropriate action. I would TRY and work out a settlement first by sending a non-accusatory email stating the facts and offering to pay for his ebay fees. But that is just me, I am a pacifist and I would rather work things out than do battle. I still think it is up to the bidder to ask questions OR PASS an item by before bidding (and possibly outbidding a potentially interested bidder) and then asking these questions.
Ebay is rife with repros, misrepresented items and outright crooks. Until they have a foolproof system that protects buyers, this is my best advice and that is why I offer it.
And I said NOTHING about posting this at ebay so I do not understand why you are explaining (actually repeating) that about why you posted here - I happen to think everyone is welcome to post here.
Once again, I wish Mrs. Sgtmike good luck in her collecting and I hope this problem is worked out to your satisfaction.
Considering all input, even the irrelevant, and the most recent communication from the seller, I have concluded that Spazmodeus' concise input has won out.
Subsequent to an exchange of email between the seller and me, I am comfortable in believing the seller purposely did not include germane information in his/her ad, relevant to judging the quality and value of the item. Damn the "You should have asked" defense.
The seller is selling multiple alike items and most all the ads, or at least did (may have added information), is absent of relevant product information he/she knows.
I had eventually decided to honor the sale and not hold the seller to his or her known meaning of "hand-quilted" and my belief of what the term meant. That is until the last email.
The email was long and (reasonably) revealed that the seller (probably) is knowingly and purposely omitting information he or she has but knows would lessen the amount of bids and bid amounts.
When I asked the seller (in my first email) where the quilt was made, the seller's response was very "matter-of-fact" and had a tone of "Duh! Did you not know? The quilt was made in China."
In the seller's most recent email, he/she, while rambling, revealed he/she knows who manufactured the quilt(s) and knows what stores sell them.
Then the seller implied (paraphrased) that I was expecting too much and said, "True, the quilt is not of high quality…."
Well kick me in the butt! THAT ["is not of highest quality"] is what knowing where the quilt was made (in China), what company manufactured it/them (seller still would not say) would help determine whether to bid and what (highest) amount.
Can anyone justify why the seller would withhold information readily available and relevant to evaluation? I can't. Of course, such info would allow me to gauge the true quality, the average value and what the quilt usually sells for elsewhere.
Seller wants to release me from sale if I pay listing fee and eBay percentage. I don't think so. Just received another email wherein the seller is now considering that I might be correct but seller is blaming the matter on the site not having a proper category for his/her wares, and therefore the category title misled my wife. HUH?
I truly do not believe the seller is a "scam artist," just attempting to get the most and highest bids possible.
What does that have to do with the price of bread?
I own several bows, but I have never made one, but I would rather make a bow, than be one…….
Sorry, got caught up in the rhythm.
I own several bows but have never made one. However, if I know the manufacture and the origin of manufacter, I can reasonably estimate the quality and value. If I can't, having said information will enable me to find out.
I own Ford trucks. Some Ford trucks are made in Canada, some are made in USA. I have never made a truck, but I will not buy one that was constructed in Canada. The evaluative information is revealed in the manifest and on the truck.
"Why not invite the seller over here to take a "gander" (in keeping with the farmyard birds metaphors) at what you have wrought? Direct your wrath against the seller in question! Call him on the carpet, right here!"
Something I do not condone and would never do. I have witnessed it being done, and each time it was very cruel occurrence and display.
I have not, and will not, identify the seller or the specific ad(s). Additionally, by the tone I detect in the seller's email, I believe he or she may be somewhat timid, and basically honest.
I do not wish to put the seller on display for you to see if I'll chop off the head.
Now if he or she would happen to come here by chance and commenced to play games or tell lies, then the situation would be different.
posted on August 19, 2000 05:24:38 PMSgtMike: Overlooking your nigh-abusive attitude towards anyone who asks questions you don't want to hear, it has everything to do with the question.
See, if your wife was new to quilting, I'd say, yeah, she didn't know what she was getting. A lot of non-quilting people don't know that if a quilt featured in a catalogue or department store says "imported" that it's probably a cheap knockoff from China or that one needs to be wary about quilts offered as new and in plastic bags here on ebay. Heck, I knew about the uproar Chinese quilts caused in the quilting community a month after I got interested in quilting.
But if she's a longtime quilter and keeps up with any sort of news from the quilting world, I'd bet my Featherweight that she knew exactly what she was doing when she bid on that quilt and that she bid on that quilt. That leads me to the next thought.
So far all we've heard is you complaining about deceptive practices and nitpicking semantics over what constitutes hand/machine quilts but we haven't heard what your wife thinks or if she agrees with the fuss you're making. For all we know, she loves the quilt, thinks it would look good in some place in your house, and really wanted the quilt. But how are we to know, since you've decided this quilt is an affront to your sensibilities and by God you're gonna trample over everyone to get what you think is justice.
I don't know why you bothered to start this thread. From the way you dismissed and belittled those who offered opinions you didn't want to hear, I suspect you knew exactly what you wanted to hear and you were going to pick and choose the opinions that fit that agenda. Fine and dandy. You found an opinion that fit and now you feel justified in cancelling your wife's choice, regardless of how she may feel about the whole thing.
Hey, after all, it's more important to be right than to make her happy, correct?
posted on August 19, 2000 05:51:03 PM
Sigh, I try my darndest to steer clear of Da Sarge's threads since it ALWAYS turns into an argument with him doling out abusive comments for anyone who DARES to respond with their own (gasp!) honest opinion... the opinion that he asked for in the first place but doesn't want to hear. Funny, isn't it?
I personally feel sorry for his wife. She saw a quilt that she liked and bid on it. HER BUSINESS. None of HIS. SHE WANTED THE QUILT. Now all of a sudden, he has taken over because his wife is using his buyer id and he won't let her get the quilt that she wanted. BFD. Is she using his mind too? Apparently so. Makes you wonder what if anything this poor woman is allowed to do on her own without the BOSS telling her how wrong she is. I smell an abusive relationship here. And before you jump in with 'I never hit my wife', sarge, remember that there are MANY forms of abuse, including CONTROL. Let her get the dam quilt if she likes it! Who gives a rat's ass about whether it was hand-pieced or machine-pieced if it is something that SHE LIKES.
posted on August 19, 2000 06:08:38 PM
Delving into Sarge's personal business i.e. his relationship with his wife is getting alittle personal in my book. She used his name, he is upset, he asked, he is irritated, he is being Sarge (which is no surprise). But I dont think any of us should comment on what his PRIVATE relationship is or may be with her. That subject is taboo and none of our business AND uncalled for.
I can see his point about her using his name....he needs to have her register under her own user name. Thats one prob out of the way. Seller should have given more detail, and Sarge got different views of opinions. That problem he will have to choose which to follow up on to his wants and needs (as well as Mrs Sarge).
posted on August 19, 2000 06:45:18 PM
I will submit for consideration the possibility that this scenario did not occur as presented.
For any of this to make any sense at all, Mike made the bid and won the auction of this cheap quilt with the intention of gratifying his wife's love of fine quilting as inexpensively as he could. Knowing him as the pennypincher that he is leads me to this convincing conclusion. He simply did what many husband's do by paying service, minimally, to his wife's desires so that he would retain the wherewithal to meet his own.
Nothing new about that at all, now is there?
To expect to be believed in saying that, after all of the years claimed as his auction activity, and knowing that even Mike's daughter has been, and may still be, an AW member and frequent poster, his wife is as a neophyte in auctions and bidding is to stretch plausibility beyond the break point.
No, Mike bought the quilt and later got busted for it by his wife, and is now demeaning himself by genoflection before this forum in search of support.
Take Your Henpecking like a man, Mike,
and find solace in your beer and meat and potatoes.
"For any of this to make any sense at all, Mike made the bid and won the auction of this cheap quilt with the intention of gratifying his wife's love of fine quilting as inexpensively as he could. Knowing him as the pennypincher that he is leads me to this convincing conclusion. He simply did what many husband's do by paying service, minimally, to his wife's desires so that he would retain the wherewithal to meet his own."
Of course! Now it all makes sense! But perhaps it was not because he was pennypinching, but just has no clue about what is a good quilt. After all these years I still remember the first bottle of perfume my hubby bought me as a gift. Jeez, did it stink.....very effective bug spray though.
cariad.......I keep having this visual of the Sarge shooting the quilt.
posted on August 19, 2000 11:32:27 PM
Some people have a very serious problem with exaggeration, lies, self-esteem, reckless assumption, and a serious inability to debate without getting personal. Then when they do, it is always someone else who created the problem.
Kind of like an incompetent arsonist that sets a fire and is caught in the act while encircled by visible self-incriminating evidence for all to read, and yet has the audacity to point their finger and accuse someone else of setting the house on fire.
I believe some here should recheck the posts in this thread. Then too, if a person is too immature and too fainthearted to handle strong debates and can offer nothing but ranting, make stupid and rancorous remarks about a person's marriage, imply or state accusations of gender reason abuse, I doubt he or she has the capacity to see themselves in a true light.
As for my wife, she is well aware of what has been said here about us. She has taken it far more personal then I have. I usually consider the source. She would like to get on the keyboard and tell some here what she personally thinks about your comments. For someone whom is usually non-profane, what she has said would embarrass a sailor. Wow, when women get pissed at women they say things that cause a man to turn red in the face.
I did ask her a hypothetical question. I asked what would be her response if I told her she was not going to buy the quilt. She said, "I would say screw you, now I'll buy two." I knew that her reply would be something like that.
As for my, so-called, abusive comments, I would use the word facetious. I do not sit timidly by while someone else makes an ignorant or sarcastic remark, especially if unrelated to the subject. I will retaliate, two-fold. Problem is, some cannot read their own writing.
If you have a problem talking with people who have strong convictions and do not easily back down, I strongly suggest you not enter my threads.
Now, if there is nothing else to be said regarding the subject of (this) thread, I will consider having it locked. Most here have contributed good suggestions to consider. Some here made it quite apparent that the seller I am dealing with might be of the same caliber and deserves no reasonable consideration from me.
.
