posted on July 23, 2005 04:00:57 PM new
This is terrible. The man that the police shot in London as a suspected terrorist had nothing to do with terrorism at all. He was Brazilian. Hopefully, there won't be a backlash from the Brazilian government.
Man killed in London not connected to blasts
LONDON - Police identified the man who was chased down in a subway and shot to death by plainclothes officers as a Brazilian and expressed regret Saturday for his death, saying they no longer believed he was tied to the recent terror bombings.
Friday’s shooting before horrified commuters prompted criticism of police for overreacting and expressions of fear that Asians and Muslims would be targeted by a “trigger-happy culture” after two well-coordinated attacks in two weeks.
The man shot at the Stockwell subway station was identified as Jean Charles de Menezes, 27. Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him in the head and torso.
In Brazil, the Foreign Ministry said it was “shocked and perplexed” by the death of de Menezes, whom it did not name but described as “apparently the victim of a lamentable mistake.”
The ministry said it expected British authorities to explain the circumstances of the shooting, and Foreign Minister Celso Amorim would try to arrange a meeting with British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw during a visit to London.
Initially linked to investigation
Hours after the shooting, Police Commissioner Ian Blair said the victim was “directly linked” to the investigations into attacks Thursday and July 7. In the latter, suicide bombings on trains and a bus killed 56 people, including four attackers.
Police initially said the victim attracted police attention because he left a house that was under surveillance after Thursday’s bungled bombings, in which devices planted on three subway trains and a double-decker bus failed to detonate properly. Stockwell is near Oval station, one of those targeted.
“He was then followed by surveillance officers to the station. His clothing and his behavior at the station added to their suspicions,” police said Friday.
Regretful admission
But Saturday, a police official said on condition of anonymity that de Menezes was “not believed to be connected in any way to any of the London bombings.” The official requested anonymity because no official announcement had been made.
“For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets,” a spokesman said on condition of anonymity, which is police policy.
However, police did not explain what went wrong. Citing a need to keep the investigation under wraps, the authorities refused to give any indication whether de Menezes had done anything wrong at all.
Mayor Ken Livingstone said the killing was a “human tragedy” that was a consequence of the attacks.
“The police acted to do what they believed necessary to protect the lives of the public,” he said. “This tragedy has added another victim to the toll of deaths for which the terrorists bear responsibility.”
Livingstone drew a hard line before the mistake became clear, declaring that anyone believed to be a suicide bomber faced a “shoot-to-kill policy.”
The shooting was an indication of the nervousness and anxiety around the city of about 8 million people. A police watchdog organization, the Independent Police Complaints Commission, said it would investigate the shooting but make sure not to hinder the bombings probe.
Shami Chakrabarti, director of the civil rights group Liberty, said such an investigation was critical for reassuring the public.
“It’s incredibly important that society remains united at such a tense time, it’s very important that young Asian men don’t feel that there is some kind of trigger-happy culture out there,” Chakrabarti said.
The Islamic Human Rights Commission said “in the current climate of anti-Muslim hysteria, IHRC fears that innocent people may lose their lives due to the new shoot to kill policy.”
Iqbal Sacranie, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, said, “It’s absolutely vital that the utmost care is taken to ensure that innocent people are not killed due to overzealousness.”
posted on July 23, 2005 04:11:48 PM new
"Plainclothes police chased a man in a thick coat through a subway station, wrestled him to the floor of a train car and shot him to death in front of stunned commuters Friday. Police said the shooting was "directly linked" to the investigations of the bomb attacks on London's transit system."
That'll make the bombers think twice.
I bet extexbill is happy now. The bombers will kill people or the police will kill people for them.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
----------------------------------
President George Bush: "Over time the truth will come out."
President George Bush: "Our people are going to find out the truth, and the truth will say that this intelligence was good intelligence. There's no doubt in my mind."
Bush was right. The truth did come out and the facts are he misled Congress and the American people about the reasons we should go to war in Iraq.
posted on July 23, 2005 04:45:35 PM new
The difference is the police only killed one guy who they had good reason to believe could be a mass murdering fanatic.
Why did the guy dress like that and run from the cops?
Mistake? Maybe. I'd rather have them shoot a few innocent people who act suspiciously than lose 50 innocents to one homicide-bomber.
And yes, I -really did- say that.
--------------------------------------
Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum sonatur.
posted on July 23, 2005 04:48:43 PM new
Nope, not happy to see an innocent person die. And all the bombers victims were innocent also.
By the way, logansdad and mingo who got such a laugh about "suicide" bombers being deterred by being shot.
You don't read well do you?!
The four bombings last week were not thought to be suicide bombings. The three on the subway were packs set off by timers or cell phones similar to the bombs in Spain. The bomber on the bus was seen by riders on the bus fumbling with a pack or briefcase just before the explosion. They said he had a terrified look on his face. The bus had been diverted and delayed and it thought he was on his way to a tube station and was trying to delay a timing device. The four bombs this week were also left by men who ran. This from my friends in London.
Sorry to disappoint you but these cowards are killing others, not committing suicide.
The British Police now have a "shoot to the head" clear policy. Yep, it may deter some bombings.
posted on July 23, 2005 04:49:52 PM new
They were holding him down. I wonder why they needed to shoot him?
____________________________________________
Fue por lana y salió trasquilado...
I can't believe you said that. So, because we are afraid we're to shoot anyone who looks even a little suspicious? Doesn't that put us at the same level as the terrorists? This isn't the wild wild west. We're supposed to be civilized. My friend in London led me to the story. He lives there and is appauled by the actions of the police in this situation. The same action by police here would get them a law suit. It's no different than chasing down and beating an African American male or shooting him because he looked suspicious or resisted arrest or some other nonsense.
pinned him to the ground and shot him in the head and torso.
A bit excessive don't you think? IMO, that's murder.
Cheryl
[ edited by cblev65252 on Jul 23, 2005 05:35 PM ]
posted on July 23, 2005 05:42:54 PM new
cblev. According to my friends in London, the police now have a clear policy of "shoot to the head". Sorry, if you don't like it, talk to the Brits. And my friends are not "appalled" at all. I guess it's according to who you talk to.
And this one did resist arrest. He was ordered to stop, and he started to run. He was followed from a house that was a terrorist hide-out.
[ edited by etexbill on Jul 23, 2005 05:45 PM ]
[ edited by etexbill on Jul 23, 2005 05:47 PM ]
posted on July 23, 2005 05:51:52 PM new
"So, because we are afraid we're to shoot anyone who looks even a little suspicious?"
No, but if they dress like a bomber, look like a bomber, and run away when the police yell to stop with guns drawn, then fire away!
"Doesn't that put us at the same level as the terrorists?"
Why is it that people always use silly lines like that? We are NOT at the level of the terrorists. Unless of course we start strapping bombs on ourselves to intentionally kill civilians and children. Last I heard we still only intentionally kill military targets. We're nowhere NEAR their level. They are premeditated mass murdering fanatcis.
"This isn't the wild wild west. We're supposed to be civilized."
In a civilized society we obey the rule of law, including obeying law enforcement officials. When five armed police officers yell "FREEZE!" with guns drawn, you are supposed to stop, not run away like you have something to hide or unfinished business to... finish.
"My friend in London led me to the story. He lives there and is appauled by the actions of the police in this situation."
Unless he was there and holding a gun, he has no idea what the police were thinking. Can you be saddened by the mistake? Sure.
"The same action by police here would get them a law suit. It's no different than chasing down and beating an African American male or shooting him because he looked suspicious or resisted arrest or some other nonsense."
If African-Americans were strapping bombs on themselves to kill innocents, then I'd be all for shooting one of them if they looked like they were wearing a bomb as well. Or caucasians too. Race has NOTHING to do with it. And if you weren't aware of it, police *DO* shoot people for resisting arrest all the time.
At this point, we still don't know WHY this guy was singled out. Until we find out, there is just NO WAY to judge these officers.
--------------------------------------
[ edited by replaymedia on Jul 23, 2005 05:53 PM ]
posted on July 23, 2005 05:53:22 PM new
Mr Ramm said the danger of shooting a suspected suicide bomber in the body was that it could detonate a bomb they were carrying on them.
"The fact is that when you're dealing with suicide bombers they only way you can stop them effectively - and protect yourself - is to try for a head-shot," he said.
posted on July 23, 2005 07:09:48 PM new
Picture in your mind... Five police officers pointing guns at you and yelling. Do you really need to know the meaning of the words to know what to do? Isn't standing still with your hands up pretty much universal, even in Brazil?
That's assuming he didn't know English. Wouldn't pretty much anyone travelling to another country know STOP!?
--------------------------------------
Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum sonatur.
posted on July 23, 2005 07:23:33 PM new
"Lets kill them all and let God sort the good from the bad." Viet Nam 1960S/70S. We all know how well that worked.
Now the neocons are trying to blame the victim by saying,if the dead guy did this,if the dead guy did that.
posted on July 23, 2005 09:15:05 PM new
AGAIN, THE POLICE HAD HIM "pinned him to the ground". Kind of like shooting an animal in a trap, don't ya think? Once he was pinned down and subdued, there was no reason to shoot him in the head AND torso. Excessive.
posted on July 23, 2005 09:55:44 PM new
It's easier to get a head shot when the person is pinned down.
I don't blame the police, tensions where probably high, this person did run and act suspicious, they kept what they thought was a suicide bomber from blowing himself up and others.
Unfortunate, yes. But I wouldn't hold it against the police.
posted on July 23, 2005 10:05:56 PM new
From one of the witness accounts I heard today, the police did not have him pinned. He was trying to run from them,tripped and fell, and was shot when he went down.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
No, I'm saying -- I'm merely -- I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't know why I'm always having people say, are you trying to say -- you know what you can do if you want to know what I'm saying is listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is what I said ...
posted on July 24, 2005 06:09:10 AM new The witness told the newspaper that the suspect, just a few yards away from him, fell to the ground and officers were on him immediately.
"The policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand. He held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him."
England has it's extremist right-wing racist element too.
posted on July 24, 2005 06:39:03 AM new
Would it of been better to have had him trigger his bomb and blow himself up and all those around him?
Becasue the Police didn't shoot? They erred on the side of right this time.
posted on July 24, 2005 08:01:39 AM new
According to the official version of de Menezes' death, police had been watching his apartment block as part of their search for Thursday's would-be bombers. When the man emerged, plain-clothes police followed him from Tulse Hill to the Stockwell station in south London. Police said they ordered him to halt. Instead, he vaulted the turnstiles and ran onto a train, with police close behind.
The official report simply states: 'He was then followed by surveillance officers to the underground station. His clothing and behavior added to their suspicions.'"
Well, Ron...Take care if you travel in London. You could be shot five times in the head if you resemble their latest fantasy of how a terrorist "looks".
And, in answer to your question about killing all those around him, they followed him toward the train and toward "all those people" that you mention...forced him onto the train and then executed him with a theatrical five shots. When he was first sighted leaving his apartment in a block under surveilance, there were no crowds of people.
posted on July 24, 2005 08:52:51 AM new
An AP report said:
[i]Police said Menezes attracted police attention because he left a building that was under surveillance after Thursday's attacks. They said he was then followed by surveillance officers to the station, and that his clothing and his behavior at the station added to their suspicions[i].
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on July 24, 2005 09:47:43 AM new "It sure is easy to criticize those cops, especially since none of you lefties were 1st hand witnesses."
My comment was based on an official report. That together with eyewitness reports and an apology from the police should shed some light on the story even for you and linda, Bear.
And yes, it surely is easy to criticize the police in this instance. Just like murderers in our midst need to be criticized and controlled, so do police when they shoot an innocent man in the head five times.
Maybe the next time you act suspicious especially when you are in a foreign country, you'd better watch out. You could be next. IMO, everyone in London is probably acting suspicious. You would, too, if you were afraid of what may be around the next corner.
I see plenty of people everyday that act "suspicious" in my eyes. Doesn't mean they are doing anything wrong. The police don't normally carry guns in the UK. Now I can see why that is.
Edited to add: Ron, after everything that's gone on there the last few weeks, you're going to stop for men not in uniform wielding guns? Sure you are.
He was shot five times in the head at close range as he lay on the floor of a train, witnesses said.
FIVE TIMES IN THE HEAD? That's not excessive? AS HE LAY ON THE FLOOR OF A TRAIN? That's not over zealous?
Cheryl
[ edited by cblev65252 on Jul 24, 2005 10:54 AM ]
posted on July 24, 2005 10:59:55 AM new
Let's see, blame the US government, blame the Republicans who, according to mingo/CF, "fly planes into tall buildings", blame the British Police, blame everyone but the terrorists!!
Yep, the Bobbies usually carry a truncheon and a whistle. Now they are ready. Watch out terrorists and bombers. You may got shot (in the head even). Five times maybe. Ouch!!
[ edited by etexbill on Jul 24, 2005 11:02 AM ]
posted on July 24, 2005 11:27:21 AM newLet's see, blame the US government, blame the Republicans who, according to mingo/CF, "fly planes into tall buildings", blame the British Police, blame everyone but the terrorists!!
Yep...nail on head. Ultra-lefties like helen and cheryl NEVER put the blame on anyone EXCEPT those who are trying to protect the public from the terrorists. It's their MO. Not one bit of understanding why things like this will happen, un-intentionally, but none-the-less it's ALWAYS the 'good guys' that are to blame in their eyes.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
