Unfortunately, it's illegal to carry a gun and I believe even own one for something other than hunting in the UK. The regular police don't even carry one. But, you gotta watch out for those men in plain clothes wielding guns. They'll make up for the fact that no one else has one. Shoot all suspicious looking people dead on the spot. With this policy, even if the man had stopped, chances are they would have shot him dead anyway because they thought he was something he wasn't.
I would have kept running, too.
Cheryl
[ edited by cblev65252 on Jul 25, 2005 04:33 AM ]
posted on July 25, 2005 05:40:00 AM
Now, the role of Israel in instructing England's "police force" is being covered. There is a quesstion now of military involvement in this "police force".
1. The Official Story for the London police actions is set out in the Daily Record:
"THE young man killed in Stockwell yesterday was subjected to summary execution by police operating a shoot-to-kill policy.
It is a controversial tactic deployed only in the most extreme circumstances but one police have been preparing to use for the last two weeks.
Minutes after first news of the four bombs ripping through the underground and the No 30 bus reached Scotland Yard on July 7, a message was sent to the Met's elite SO19 firearms unit.
They were instructed to launch 'Operation Kratos' - codename for the secret guidelines which tell officers how to react to suicide bombers."
and:
"The marksmen were briefed by officers who had been to Israel to meet their counterparts there and pick up tips gleaned from the experience of dealing with Hamas bombers."
and:
"During the Kratos briefings, the Met team were told that, contrary to their normal arms training, they should fire at the head rather than the chest.
Although the chest is easier to hit, it is not as reliable in causing instant death, giving a bomber a chance to detonate his device.
A blow to the torso also risks setting off any explosives that are strapped to the body."
2. The shooting would therefore be the act of a part of an elite London police firearms unit called SO19. As Michel Chossudovsky writes:
"Essentially what we are dealing with is the formation of a death squadron mentality under the auspices of what is still officially considered a 'civilian police force'."
Bad enough, but it might even be worse. Some are questioning whether this is actually a police operation, and wondering whether it might be an SAS operation (i.e., a British military special operations unit which seems to regard itself as completely unaccountable to civilian oversight). The question of who is involved may, or may not, be answered as a result of official inquiries:
"The shooting is being investigated by officers from Scotland Yard's Directorate of Professional Standards, and will be referred to the Independent Police Complaints Commission."
3. I would expect nothing to come of this except for congratulations for heroic police work, so the question of military involvement in policing may never be answered.
We have received a rather elaborate justification for the 'shoot to kill' strategy. One problem I have with this is the fact that the execution of Jean Charles de Menezes followed none of the new guidelines. The theory is that rapid shots to the head are necessary to instantly kill a bomber before he can trigger his payload, something he could do even after shots to the torso which would normally be considered sufficient to incapacitate, or even quickly kill, a threatening person. In the case of Jean Charles de Menezes, the authorities pursued him from a place of relatively few people into a crowded subway train, apparently made no attempt to fire at him until he was on the ground (witnesses reported no shots until the five fatal ones), and only killed him when he was closely surrounded by a number of official shooters. In other words, they followed absolutely no part of the protocol apparently learned from the Israelis on how to deal with suicide bombers. Had he been a real suicide bomber, they had given him ample time to set off his bomb, forced him to a place where the bomb would have done the maximum harm, and might even have accidentally triggered the bomb by their firing at him at close range, surrounded by policemen who would have been victims of the bomb. I'm always suspicious when I read elaborate explanations for official behavior that don't match what the officials actually did.
4. There is still no logical explanation of how Jean Charles de Menezes even ended up under police surveillance. Officials claim that he was living in an apartment in the same building or in a building close to the building which the police were watching as the residence of someone suspected of being connected to the bombings. At least, that's the Official Story. It makes no sense. Did they not know what the person they were supposedly watching actually looked like? Would any person living in the building, or even in the area of the building, become a suspect? From the Telegraph (my emphasis in bold):
"The officer can open fire only if authorised to do so by a chief police officer - either at the start of a pre-planned operation, as seems to have been the case at Stockwell, or by police radio during a 'spontaneous' incident.
The suspect shot dead had been under surveillance and officers from the Metropolitan Police's firearms squad are understood to have been briefed that he posed a grave risk to safety."
Pre-planned? If they thought he was a suicide bomber, why did they let him walk into a subway station? Why did they only challenge him - if in fact they did - or run after him after he was in a place where he could do real damage? The Official Story has so many holes in it that it appears that at least part of it was made up after the fact, in order to justify what seems to be an unjustifiable shooting.
5. Shoot-to-kill makes some sense in the twisted world of Israel. After all, in the Occupied Territories, if you shoot someone in the head who you think just might be a suicide bomber, you've either stopped a suicide bombing or killed a Palestinian. It's a win-win situation! In London, however, the odds are against you. You have to weigh a very, very tiny chance of stopping a suicide bomber against the huge probability of allowing the police - or military - to be judge, jury and executioner of an innocent man. On top of that, you have to consider that the fear and anger caused by a mistake could be the cause of real suicide bombings in the future (this side effect is another thing that is considered a bonus in Israel, as the provocation of terrorism allows for the Israeli state terrorism which is being used in the ethnic cleansing of the Occupied Territories). How are young Asian men going to feel riding the subway, or even walking down the street, knowing that at any instant they might be fatally shot by plainclothes policemen? Unless the British authorities want to start a race war against a significant portion of the British population, shoot-to-kill is dumb as a practical response to terror, as well as being immoral and politically fascist. It is extremely dangerous as it is subject to abuse by the type of right-wing factions you always seem to find in the military and police who would like nothing better than to provoke a race war (which is exactly what this incident looks like).
6. Shoot-to-kill isstill official British government policy.
posted on July 25, 2005 07:35:04 AM
"""Unless the British authorities want to start a race war against a significant portion of the British population,
shoot-to-kill is dumb as a practical response to terror, as well as being immoral and politically fascist.
It is extremely dangerous as it is subject to abuse by the type of
right-wing factions
you always seem to find in the military and police who would like nothing better than to provoke a race war (which is exactly what this incident looks like).
""""
posted on July 25, 2005 07:52:38 AM
What I find amusing, Helen, is that Tony Blair continues to deny that there is a connection between the recent terrorist activities in London and the UK's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan. Talk about being in a state of denial!
posted on July 25, 2005 08:09:35 AM
"Sooooo the COP stops you for a backpack search,,,,,,, YOU the citizen has a GUN, YOU go to Jail,,,,,,insanity!!!!!!!!!! "
Nope, you don't go to jail in Texas. Just have a concealed weapon permit. Just about everyone does.
Even stopwhining's elite (and skinny) ladies at Neiman-Marcus.
[ edited by etexbill on Jul 25, 2005 08:13 AM ]
posted on July 25, 2005 08:28:45 AM
Tex..I'd carry one too but my designer bag is to small..and they are much to heavy ,unless you have a derringer. Gun toting, beer drinking, driving a pick-up truck, Texan...ahhhhh..the Good Life!
posted on July 25, 2005 08:33:23 AM "What I find amusing, Helen, is that Tony Blair continues to deny that there is a connection between the recent terrorist activities in London and the UK's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan. Talk about being in a state of denial!"
Right, Cheryl...London residents have had it.
"That such a shocking state of affairs has lately been allowed to develop in Britain is nothing less than one almighty and damning indictment of our current leaders utter incompetence. They have insisted since the start of the super-simpleton across the Atlantic's abominable adventures across half the globe, that it's best we stand shoulder to shoulder with the insane sob. Well, some of us are prepared come right out and say it isn't best. Others won't say it - but nonetheless know it. Just as we all know that this pathetic pair of pillocks presenting themselves as prime minister and president respectively, are inept beyond imagination."
Blair should do the whole world a favour. He should simply tell his crazy, Quixotic cowboy friend from Crawford to climb into his saddle and ride into the sunset -- along with himself. Richard
posted on July 25, 2005 08:36:54 AMBritish stand by 'shoot to kill'
By Paul Martin
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
July 25, 2005
LONDON -- Police and the government said yesterday they will not back away from a tough new "shoot-to-kill" policy when pursuing suspected terrorists or suicide bombers, despite the death on Friday of an innocent Brazilian who was shot after fleeing police.
Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair said more shootings could be expected.
"This is a terrifying set of circumstances for anyone to take such a decision," Commissioner Blair said. He urged understanding of the threats Londoners face "on the streets and below the streets" -- a reference to eight bombs in the transit system in the previous 17 days.
Authorities also announced that police had arrested a man Saturday night "on suspicion of the commission, investigation or preparation of acts of terrorism." Details of his connection to the bombings were not released.
However, the arrest was made in a neighborhood in south London where two other men were arrested earlier. Those two still were being interrogated.
Leading Cabinet minister Peter Hain said earlier that police have the government's "full support" and that police officers would keep the authority to use lethal force "when there is danger to their own lives or to lives of the public."
"We are standing absolutely steely firm," he said. "I think the terrorists understand very clearly that we have a government that will not flinch and will hunt them down and root them out."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
edited to add from the same article:
The Brazilian foreign minister was in London over the weekend. He said his country was "shocked and perplexed" by the shooting, but remained in solidarity with Britain in the "fight against terror."
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!
posted on July 25, 2005 08:48:53 AM
Linda, don't burst Helen's bubble. Let her believe what she thinks is true. She is not there.
My friends in London say the general public is for whatever is necessary.
Course they have been through this several times before. World War II, the IRA.
They're a tough people and they won't be imtimidated by helen, mingo/CF or anyone else's advice from afar. They couldn't care less about our suggestions.
posted on July 25, 2005 09:01:46 AM
etex...Carry on with your babble or sweet nothings or whatever. You are so uninformed about the issues related to political topics that it's useless to discuss anything with you for that reason. Linda, on the other hand is so narrow minded that she cannot entertain an idea that is not promulgated by the Fox news propagandists or the equally right wing newspaper The Washington Times. So pat each other on the back and go play in your sandbox.
posted on July 25, 2005 09:10:48 AM
I know, etexbill, I just like giving balance to her off-the-wall ultra-leftie sites she believes. And I thank God, everyday, people like her aren't in power.
-----------------
Hezbollah's founding charter calls for the destruction of the United States for its role in preventing the spread of Islam. And long before the start of the current intifada, Hezbollah had killed more Americans before 9/11 than any other terrorist entity on earth.
It's not just the leadership of Palestinian terrorist organizations, however, that are of like mind with Osama bin Laden. Lest we forget the images of thousands of Palestinians cheering and gleefully burning American flags on September 11.
Already, many have attempted to claim that the "reason" for the London attacks was Britain's involvement in the war in Iraq. What this ignores, however, is that adherents of al Qaeda don't need a reason to attack other than the existence of freedom—a concept that goes against the core belief in Shari'a law and the necessity of Islamic states.
In the decade before 9/11, many U.S. targets were hit: the World Trade Center in 1993, Khobar Towers in 1996, the East Africa embassies in 1998, and the U.S.S. Cole in 2000. Each time, we did nothing. Yet al Qaeda struck anyway on September 11.
There is a "reason" why four young British men took their own lives in order to murder more than 50. But it's not Iraq. It's not Afghanistan. It's not Israel. It's radical Islam.
posted on July 25, 2005 09:14:56 AM
"What I find amusing, Helen, is that Tony Blair continues to deny that there is a connection between the recent terrorist activities in London and the UK's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan. Talk about being in a state of denial!"
OK, what was their reasoning in hitting Spain?
Oh yes, to change an election and it worked. Britain is not like Spain. They won't be intimidated.
[ edited by etexbill on Jul 25, 2005 09:18 AM ]
posted on July 25, 2005 09:23:08 AM
And the lefties here would be blaming the London cops if the guy had been carrying a bomb and it detonated because they didn't shoot him.
A word to the wise ain't necessary, it's the stupid ones that need the advice."
- Bill Cosby
posted on July 25, 2005 09:48:13 AM
Cheryl, IMHO, your concern would be better placed in your own home town instead of with one case of an innocent (but suspicious) person being killed. Some statistics for you for the year 2002.
posted on July 25, 2005 10:00:25 AM
You are displaying your ignorance again, etex...by your effort to minimize the effects of global terrorism by a statement of crime statistics.
posted on July 25, 2005 10:02:05 AM
Ya, the Londonerts who don't care what the police do are just the ones who haven't been shot dead yet
Ya LindaTwelveK and other dopes believe in just slaughtering people left and right, "nuking" them, just kill kill kill until there's nobody left...that's there "intelligent" answer to terrorism....just kill everybody(except themselves), and the terrorists won't have to it themselves.
posted on July 25, 2005 10:09:26 AM
Read it and weep. Worry about what is happening in London, when your own back yard is crawling with murder and mayhem.
Or maybe crime in your own back yard is not a problem to liberals.
Let's fix those bobbies in London for killing one, but don't tell me 80 people were killed in my town".
posted on July 25, 2005 10:20:35 AM
2002??? That's the best you can do? Crime is down here. Perhaps you need to hunt down more current stats. Nice try changing the subject, though. The neocons are good at that.
Even with 250 fewer officers, our 70 percent homicide solve rate is well above the national average. Even the reduced force has more police officers per citizen than any other Ohio city.
One innocent man murdered at the hands of the police, is one too many no matter where in the world they live.
Cheryl
[ edited by cblev65252 on Jul 25, 2005 10:21 AM ]
posted on July 25, 2005 10:27:52 AM
It's clear that while they don't appear to care about, nor ever RAGE about all the lives the terrorists have taken/continue to take.....they sure can make a huge deal out of one accident by police trying to defend the public. But....that's just the ultra-left, anti-war crowd....don't expect anything else.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on July 25, 2005 10:40:12 AM
Don't tell me what I do and don't care about, Linda. You have no idea. You have no right to speak for me or anyone else on this board.
posted on July 25, 2005 10:47:33 AM
LOL....how funny. Indignant that I stated my OWN opinion of YOU, cheryl? But it's okay when you speak for me....right.
I said what I wanted to because that's how it is. I NEVER see you or helen raging about anything the terrorists do. NEVER. But you're both VERY quick to bash our governments actions, the British government's actions and almost every action that is taken against the terrorist.
So, cheryl, until such time I see you blaming the ones that are killing innocent people - the terrorists and quit blaming those who are fighting against these mad-men.....I'll form my OWN opinions of your posts.....thank you anyway.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on July 25, 2005 10:54:04 AM
Next I expect we'll be hearing from helen, cheryl, etc....about the terrible mistreatment/torture the terrorists in Egypt are dealing with, since 3000 have been arrested there for the recent three bombing in their country.
Human rights groups....man your stations.
----------
Egyptian security forces typically conduct massive dragnets in the wake of high-profile crimes, taking into custody anyone who they believe might possibly have had contact with the perpetrators.
Eight Egyptian human rights groups meanwhile issued a statement on Monday condemning the bombing while calling on Egyptian authorities to avoid an excessive security crackdown.
Security forces arrested up to 3,000 people, mainly Sinai bedouin, after the Taba bombing, with human rights groups claiming that many were tortured while in custody.
Saturday’s coordinate triple bomb attack in Sharm el Sheikh killed 88 people, mostly Egyptians, in the worst terrorist incident in the country’s history.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on July 25, 2005 10:55:06 AM
Dear stupid LindaTwelveK, when we do object to the slaughter in Iraq YOOOOU say everything is just fine and dandy !
YOU are the one who cares Nothing for noone but yourself.
And how about those righties who insist that DUH "if we don't fight them there we have to fight them here" ???
Tell that to the British....didn't work too well for them!
posted on July 25, 2005 11:03:45 AMThis was a tragic mistake..no one is arguing that fact..hopefully if any positive can come out of an innocent person being killed..it will be that:
1. it will serve as a warning to the terrorists that Britain's policy is "shoot to kill"...and
2. And the Police will now use more caution.
These are extraordinary times, everyone is in panic mode and for good reasons..nervous and jumpy, I expect many more tragic mistakes will happen and have happened..in these times of war on terror. And it's only just begun people..it is just the beginning...
And I thank God, everyday, people like her aren't in power.
