nansstuff
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posted on October 18, 2000 09:15:11 PM
I just saw listed in a TOS that the person accepts Paypal, but that there would be a fee if you use it due to "Changes in Paypals fees". Just curious, how many people would pass this on to customers? Personally, no way. It's is a cost of doing business, and a deductible business expense.
I apologize in advance if this has already been discussed, and for spelling customers wrong!
[ edited by nansstuff on Oct 18, 2000 09:19 PM ]
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mrpotatoheadd
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posted on October 18, 2000 09:38:14 PM
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I'm just throwing this thought out for discussion, because I'm curious about what kind of responses it will get...
Regarding passing on Paypal fees to custsomers, you said you wouldn't because:
It's is a cost of doing business, and a deductible business expense.
Wouldn't postage and packaging costs also fall into this area? Do you charge your customers for those? Why would someone charge postage/packaging fees, but not payment processing fees? Why would one be acceptable but not the other? Are these enough questions, or should I ask some more?
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jada
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posted on October 18, 2000 09:58:14 PM
I would pass on any auctions which had this statement in their TOS. I wouldn't use Paypal under any circumstances, but passing on Paypal charges would definitely put the seller on my "do not buy from" list.
No offense intended, just my opinion, nothing more.
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mrpotatoheadd
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posted on October 19, 2000 07:28:34 AM
jada-
...passing on Paypal charges would definitely put the seller on my "do not buy from" list.
If the seller only takes checks or money orders and requires you to buy the stamp and envelope to mail your payment, would you also put the seller on your "do not buy from" list?
If not, why not? Either way, (PayPal fees/stamp & envelope), the seller is requiring you to pay the costs associated with getting the payment to him. Why is one way acceptable and the other not?
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debtrek
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posted on October 19, 2000 07:38:53 AM
it's not that I resent the fees being passed on to me,but it just BUGS me when I see it in the TOS...I'm not convinced there's a good way to handle it,but I hit the "back" button when I see the extra charge mentioned in the TOS... 
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eventer
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posted on October 19, 2000 07:58:20 AM
I will never understand some seller's needs to "announce" in their TOS all the costs of business they are passing along to the customer.
Do they think the customer's are going to rise up against PP & demand they change their fee structure.
People are in business to turn a profit. You should cover all your costs, whether postage, handling costs or PP fees.
Raise your starting price, adjust your shiping & handling price, cover it in your overall profit, but don't feel the need to announce & justify every penny of a price increase in your TOS!
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mrpotatoheadd
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posted on October 19, 2000 08:07:49 AM
I guess the thing I find confusing is why a buyer would balk at paying the seller's PayPal fee, but have no problem sending off a money order.
Item sells for $10.00, shipping included- buyer has two options:
Send money order- $10.00 + $0.50 for money order + $0.33 for stamp (I'll throw in the envelope for free) = $10.83 (and get item in 10 to 14 days, maybe), and buyers find this acceptable.
Pay through PayPal- $10.00 + $0.25 PayPal fee = $10.25 (and get item in 5 to 7 days, maybe), and buyers run for the hills screaming.
What's wrong with this picture?
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vohnjamm
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posted on October 19, 2000 09:35:26 AM
I was recently notified by Ebay that passing along credit card fees to my customers was not allowed under their guidelines. It actually violated the agreements Mastercard and Visa have with merchants that accept payment with credit cards. This practice is also illegal in CA which is where the transaction between buyer and seller actually takes place. I would think that passing along the pay pal fees would also fall under these Ebay guidelines and also violate the merchants agreement and the law.
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mrpotatoheadd
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posted on October 19, 2000 09:52:08 AM
I would think that passing along the pay pal fees would also fall under these Ebay guidelines and also violate the merchants agreement and the law.
PayPal fees are credit card fees? I don't see how. A seller who uses PayPal never sees any of the buyer's credit card information and has no contact nor entered into any agreement with Mastercard or Visa.
PayPal is the merchant who is submitting the charge on the card, so actually, it seems that if PayPal is passing along those fees to the seller, then they are the ones violating the agreement.
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vohnjamm
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posted on October 19, 2000 10:02:50 AM
Pay Pal can not be considered the merchant because they are not actually selling anything to your buyer. You are.
I do have a business in which I do take credit card payments. All my transactions are handled by a bank which in turn charges me a fee per transaction and a monthly statement fee. Pay Pal would be considered the "bank" which is processing the transactions and charging you the fee to process the transaction on your behalf.
Since you are the "seller" and pay pal is the "bank", I do not see how this guideline and law would not apply to passing along the pay pal fee. You are passing along a fee to accept payment for a credit card payment.
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mrpotatoheadd
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posted on October 19, 2000 10:19:16 AM
Pay Pal can not be considered the merchant because they are not actually selling anything to your buyer. You are.
PayPal may not be selling anything to your buyer, but they are selling something... to you. They are selling a service whereby one person can transfer money to another. Using a credit card is one way to accomplish this goal, but they have other options, as well.
Since you are the "seller" and pay pal is the "bank"...
PayPal is not a bank.
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vargas
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posted on October 19, 2000 10:25:03 AM
"You are passing along a fee to accept payment for a credit card payment."
Not necessarily. You might very well be passing along a fee to accept payment by check.
"Pay Pal can not be considered the merchant because they are not actually selling anything to your buyer. You are."
The following is from the chargebacks section of PayPal's TOU:
"The consumer is fully protected and as the merchant of record we accept final responsibility for all card transactions.As such, we afford customers all the rights and privileges expected of a credit card transaction."
PayPal is a merchant. It sells a SERVICE.
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vohnjamm
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posted on October 19, 2000 10:29:58 AM
Well, I think we must agree to disagree. Are you willing to risk the consequence on a technicality? I am not and just thought I would bring Ebays seller guideline, Mastercard and Visa rules, and the LAW to your attention.
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vargas
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posted on October 19, 2000 10:37:26 AM
Most of us are aware of those rules.
They apply to my merchant account.
PayPal, on the other hand, is a gray area. I don't think anyone has the final answer on this one yet.
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grizzly38
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posted on October 19, 2000 10:53:02 AM
Passing on fees charged to a seller by PayPal is bad business. Imagine walking into a store on the mall and having them charge you the 2.5% Visa charges them. You wouldn't pay it.
They eat the charge because they WANT you to buy. Without the credit card you may not have the cash on hand to buy.
It is the same with PayPal. I want customers to use it. It gets money to me sooner, and allows me to ship immediately.
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eoi
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posted on October 19, 2000 10:55:50 AM
Merchant's have a contract with Visa/MC/et al that limits the ability to pass thru fees. But paypal.com is passing thru fees also, in this case to the sellers.
So once again we have the double standard that its OK for the big companies to maximize profits, but its wrong for a small business to do the same.
Legally I should say that Paypal is more like Western Union, it is a money wiring service.
I use paypal.com right now under the $500 ceiling. I personally haven't decided how I'm going to deal with them after I reach that limit.
I'm thinking of stating that there will be a $0.25 fee to use paypal.com or no fee for yahoo paydirect (until they start charging fees) to encourage people to use payDirect (unless Ebay decrees that we can't use PayDirect because Yahoo is in the Auction Biz).
Contary to popular belief, Ebay can't just re-interprete its TOS in the most favorible light for the bidders or itself at all times. Ebay can require that you obey state law and Merchant agreements, but it doesn't have to the power to enforce an agreement you didn't sign nor to expand the scope of state laws. Ebay sellers are also customers, and they are also protected under california law from abusive and non-competitive practices.
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airguy
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posted on October 19, 2000 11:15:52 AM
ever buy gas with a CC?? cash price or credit price.
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sg52
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posted on October 19, 2000 11:39:48 AM
Pay Pal can not be considered the merchant because they are not actually selling anything to your buyer
In any credit card transaction, the "merchant" is not ambiguous in the least. It's the one who submitted the charge request. PayPal. This is a matter of fact, not opinion.
There may be other informal usages of the word "merchant" which PayPal does not participate in, but formally, they are the merchant.
In defense of PayPal (for a change), PayPal is not passing on credit card charges; as others have pointed out, they are selling a service to sellers.
They do not however acquire the status of an intermediate credit card processor, because they remain the charging merchant. From the credit card perspective, buyer's transaction is purely with PayPal.
sg52
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twelvepole
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posted on October 19, 2000 12:00:14 PM
I posted a while back, it is not acceptable to openly state there is a fee for using Paypal.
If reported to safeharbor, your auction will be shut down.
I will look and see if I still have that e-mail answer to my asking just that question.
Ain't Life Grand... 
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HJW
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posted on October 19, 2000 12:47:48 PM
PayPal cannot be considered a bank because it
is not a bank. It is a different animal,
operating under nobody's rules and making
their own up as they go along or rather
implementing them as they go along. It's my
opinion that this has all been planned.
I believe that sellers are certainly justified in passing PayPal fees on to
the buyer. Using PayPal is a risky business
and anybody offering it needs to be compensated.
[ edited by HJW on Oct 19, 2000 12:50 PM ]
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yisgood
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posted on October 19, 2000 01:32:36 PM
The customer pays all your fees, whether you state them in your TOS or not. So your choice is to either make everyone pay the paypal fees, even if they dont use paypal or make only those who use paypal pay them. I opt for the second method. I state:
"Due to problems reported with Paypal, I only accept paypal from verified accounts (I am verified). On items of $100 and up, buyer pays 1.9% more for using paypal. You can use the FREE payment services of Exchangepath (which will also give you $10 on your first transaction), Payplace, Moneyzap, Paydirect. No credit card? Use your checking account with Achex. Not in a hurry? Pay by check or money order."
If the customer insists on using a service that costs me money, they should pay for it just as they would pay if they wanted overnite delivery or any other extra.
http://www.ygoodman.com
[email protected]
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uaru
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posted on October 19, 2000 01:40:12 PM
"You can use the FREE payment services of Exchangepath (which will also give you $10 on your first transaction)"
You might consider removing that item. ExchangePath won't offer a sign up bonuses after 10/24
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mballai
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posted on October 19, 2000 01:44:31 PM
Frankly, if your business runs on such narrow profit margins that you can't take a PayPal payment without such gyrations, you should find another endeavor to go bankrupt in. Most of my stuff is very small potatoes, but I must say that it is often worth the fee to get paid faster and not trek to the bank. Less paperwork too.
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mrpotatoheadd
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posted on October 19, 2000 02:00:39 PM
Why is it accepted that the buyer should pay for a money order and stamp to mail the payment to the seller, but not a charge for using an online payment service?
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HJW
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posted on October 19, 2000 02:54:50 PM
mballai
I don't think that collecting a few bucks for the use of an optional
payment method such a paypal is a gyration. I don't mind at all, going
to the bank, knowing that my money is still there. I much prefer
peace of mind over speed.
Gyrating with paypal is the problem!
Helen
[ edited by HJW on Oct 19, 2000 03:01 PM ]
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eoi
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posted on October 19, 2000 06:55:36 PM
If ebay nukes an auction because you charge a fee to accept electronic funds, you should hit ebay with a consumer fraud complaint.
Ebay is only venue... I've never heard of any other venue that try to micromanage its tenants to the level that ebay does.
In fact there was a lawsuit a few months ago in California where a venue tried to evict a tenant for displaying a Peoples Republic of Vietnam Flag in the store. The Venue lost the case, even with lease agreement that had language that said they could evict them for that offense.
If ebay whats to micro-manage, then it has to give up its only a venue shield and suffering the increased liability.
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twelvepole
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posted on October 19, 2000 08:10:39 PM
I already know that I am paying for listing fees and other fees associated with the auction, why expressly point one out? If I ever see that I will report it to Safeharbor and then the seller can see what will happen.
Ain't Life Grand...
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furkidmom
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posted on October 19, 2000 08:19:07 PM
Goodnes sakes! You do not have to spell out every single charge. You (we) sellers have costs, so that is shipping and handeling right? Also put your starting bid a tad higher, and TADA! You have covered the charges without spelling it out that you are passing on anything. Not exactly Rocket Science, correct?
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hwy111
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posted on October 19, 2000 08:32:50 PM
give me a break, i'm going to go and tell on you, what are we in the third grade?
ebay is one place that only cares about the bottom dollar. i get a few people every month that are going to safeharbor for this or that. never has it been something that is in my controal, ebay server problems, paypal problems, usps problems. I HAVE NEVER RECIEVED A LETTER FROM SAFEHARBOR
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eoi
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posted on October 19, 2000 08:33:11 PM
Shipping & Handling charges are a competitive issue. If you have to charge all customers more to recoup the cost of dealing with paypal, it will hurt your sales.
On the other hand, giving customers a choice, is generally considered good marketing.
The only problem is that Ebay doesn't like the free market, and they want to tell us how to run our businesses.
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