posted on October 18, 2000 10:51:03 PM new
Whew! You guys are brutal! Leave the guy alone!
Clevergirl-----change your name cuz there is nothing clever in kicking a person feeling discouraged. His point was - he thought there may be some negotiable time, and the transactions wouldn't get caught in the cracks. I can understand that. I'm a small seller but feel no "condescendence" from this person.
These posts are to "support each other" not watch them bleed '-)
As far as I'm concerened they should all be known now as: Pay-up-Pal, Pay-Indirect, Bill-No-Point and so on son LOL LOL
I'm going back to Checks and Money orders and convince my customers that I am doing them a favor --- go read the latest on Yahoo PayDirect...the guy went into his acct and saw ANOTHER person's email there for receipt of money. Now THAT is Pay-Indirect!
Jay- I hope you get it all squared away - GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!
posted on October 18, 2000 11:32:06 PM new
"They are not a bank, therefore they don't have to follow any rules and regulations that a bank would have to follow. They are free to change the rules as often as they want to."
How mind-blowingly *amazing*.
I'm a bit over fifty years old, and believe it or not, I *never* -- until reading your post -- realized that only *banks* are subject to contract law provisions.
If you'll excuse me now, I have to run along, because I just thought of a million ways to make tons of money *legally*.
posted on October 18, 2000 11:48:09 PM new
Jareth,
So am I to understand that PayPal restricted your entire account when the credit card limit was hit?
If this is so, then PayPal is preventing other customers from paying for their auctions. Basically PayPal is not doing what they promised the customer and that's sending the money to you to pay for their auction buy - and that's exactly what I would tell every customer. It's not sending the money to you if they aren't letting you have it. Let the customers complain to PayPal about it.
I am assuming that you simply dropped PayPal from your listed accepted payment types - is that right? And you still had your credit limit hit with people just assuming you would take it without even asking? (I've had that happen to me - apparently I'm going to have to really stomp on PayPal's reputation and state what's been happening in big red letters on all my auctions to stop people from paying me that way)
posted on October 19, 2000 03:10:48 AM new
You know, I'm not usually the one to defend Paypal...in fact I hope to be first in line to watch their dot.com glories go up in cyberflames...but I don't see what they're doing wrong here. They have set up the rules for using their service, and Jereth has decided that he/she does not have to play by those rules, or at least should not have to because he/she is a "Powerseller".
The information is out there. The $500 limit and what happens before and after it has been hit is detailed on the site and has been discussed ad nauseum here. There is NO reason any capable seller, especially one of those wondrous creatures known as Powersellers, should not have known the implications of it.
To claim ignorance at this late date is bad comedy.
"If this is so, then PayPal is preventing other customers from paying for their auctions. Basically PayPal is not doing what they promised the customer and that's sending the money to you to pay for their auction buy - and that's exactly what I would tell every customer."
If you do that, you should also mention that you aren't following Paypal's rules yourself...since after you accept a certain amount of money, you are supposed to upgrade. Paypal is fulfilling their end of the deal under the TOS that they currently have in place...in this case it is Jereth who is not holding up his end of the transaction. Paypal is processing his funds, but he/she does not want to pay for that service.
I have no sympathy for ignorance or arrogance. I can't really tell which applies here.
posted on October 19, 2000 03:30:57 AM new
"since after you accept a certain amount of money"
The point, I believe, is that the "you accept" part is NOT part of the equation.
Let's drop the logic on another "venue".
Let's say that I tell people that they can remit payment to *me* for their utility bills, rent, and mortgages.
Let's then say that a certain number of people take me up on the offer, and start remitting payment to me.
Then, let's say I approach the creditors, and tell them that I have the money their customers owe them, and I'll be glad to hand it over so long as the fill out some forms, agree to play by my rules (subject to unilateral change by me at any time), and oh yeah, they have to pay me a fee for the "service" I'm providing.
And if they don't want to pay to play, then they can't have the money.
Tell me -- do you think the various banks, landlords, and utility companies would:
1. Shrug their shoulders, accept my demands, and do as I say?
2. Expend the time, effort, and expense of contacting their customers, and telling them to attempt to get their money back from me?
3. Make me wish I'd never been born?
4. ?????
--
Not sourpuss on eBay.
[ edited by sourpuss on Oct 19, 2000 03:34 AM ]
posted on October 19, 2000 05:05:01 AM new
I am glad Jereth posted this, because I was assuming (mistakenly, it turns out) that if and when I use up my $500, my buyers will in a sense be "rejected" from paying me by credit card. Or blocked. But it appears that they can merrily pay away.
So, let's say that as I near my limit, I start putting in my auctions "accepting PayPal payments by account transfer only, no credit cards". If someone disregards this and pays me by credit card anyway, I won't get the money. [unless I upgrade or close the account]
Unless I am missing something, there is nothing I can do to forestall that, except to email the buyer and say "sorry, can't take a credit card payment, please cancel your payment and send by account transfer or check/money order". I would have to indicate that I will not be delivering on the transaction even though they DID pay.
Am I missing something, or does this sum it up? Any feedback appreciated!
posted on October 19, 2000 05:36:00 AM new
Jareth, this is the biggest BS since the jello fiasco that hit south Montana in late 1988. You run thousands of auctions a week or month & all your whinings about Paypal is because you don't want to pay for credit card processing & therefore added profits to you.
Why don't you close your Paypal account to run with Billpoint?. Oh wait, Billpoint charges a fee.
abingdoncomputers, you've never used Paypal & Paypal isn't open down under so all your statements are 2nd hand from what other users state & you jumping on 1 side of the fence.
Why is this new anyway?. This was stated months ago. BTW who here has closed their Paypal account & quit whining. Raise your hands proudly...come on, don't be shy.
posted on October 19, 2000 05:53:47 AM new
Jereth
I signed up for PayPal's business account. This was really a no-brainer. I realize that with narrow-profits on an item, you wanted to wait this one out. I thought the same, but it just doesn't make any sense to avoid the inevitable. PayPal accounts for maybe half of my payments. It makes it easier for people to buy and that equals more business!
I don't do anywhere near your volume, but I would thnk that PayPal would be ideal in the long run. If you find that it doesn't work out, you can close the account.
Why torment yourself on this. If something doesn't work, you'll know it soon enough.
posted on October 19, 2000 06:11:28 AM newThe problem, it seems to me, is that there is no way to tell Paypal to REJECT payments that you do not wish to accept.
Twinsoft, I believe you've hit the nail on the head. While I like and use PayPal (and will upgrade if I ever near $500), I think it's strange and a bit ridiculous that PayPal will accept payment for any email address in America whether that person has an account with PayPal or not, and now regardless of whether those funds will be made unconditionally available to the recipient.
IMO, PayPal should only accept money for registered users, and should only accept credit card payments for personal accounts under the $500 limit or who have upgraded. That would head off a whole lot of problems.
Edited because "off" has two "f"s.
[ edited by RainyBear on Oct 19, 2000 06:13 AM ]
posted on October 19, 2000 06:22:42 AM new
Poor Jareth!
Life just isn't fair! We "small time" sellers who upgraded and dutifully paid our fees should all chip in a little extra with each transaction so "some" major sellers can continue to get free services.
BTW... any idea how many (NOT POOR) people apply for food stamps because it means free food? or... work "under the table" so they can hide their income and qualify for subsidized housing, foodstamps, welfare payments? Anybody want to guess who pays for all this "FREE" stuff?
posted on October 19, 2000 06:47:56 AM new
msmas, this dude is by no way a small time seller selling items from his house. He closes a high number of auctions a month (I don't want to say they are all high value items).
BTW as far as food stamps go & relating this to Paypal, this is exactly why Paypal has to upgrade. Businesses are taking advantage of this system. Now hey if you are running say 10 auctions a month with say 3-4 wanting to use Paypal, its still free for personnal use. Besides that if the buyer withdraws money directly from his bank account, it doesn't effect your limit.
I don't care if you are trying to run a business & pretend to tell the IRS you are just cleaning barn but when you come here & try to tell us that you close over 500-1000 auctions a month & do this out of the goodness of your heart & for the betterment of the community, you are kidding. Its business & the only reason why don't want to pay Paypal for credit processing...MORE MONEY IN YOUR BANK.
Which is great because everyone wants more money in their bank & if you can get away with it, fine but don't go looking for sympathy.
posted on October 19, 2000 07:15:38 AM new
Thanks for the posts! No, I'm not whining at all. I make business decisions dozens of times a day. That's what I do for a living. If something works, we continue with it. When it stops working, we change. We're working on a business model for '1 CENT BUBBLE WRAP' next, all auctions starting at 1c, various sizes, to see if that'll work. Jusssssst kidding, Parrothead!
And I certainly don't expect sympathy from any readers here, and I don't deserve it. What I am interested in is the answer to my original question, which I will paraphrase here:
To sellers who use PayPal but do not upgrade to a for-fee program: what did/do you expect will happen when you reach your $500 incoming credit card limit? As I noted, my expectation had been that they would reject those payments. It had not occured to me that they would accept money on my behalf and not deliver it to me.
I'm a little surprised at the emotional responses this AM from Uara, Msmas and others. I suppose they're upset about somethiing other than my posts. FYI, gang, while we now work out of a local office, we were working out of our bedroom and garage for 9 months before we moved out. You can read about it in the book we're writing, due out next year. Or maybe not.
As an aside, RainyBear has a good point: how can PayPal accept payments for non-existent email accounts? We have a fair number of people make typos in paying us: when we hound them for the money they do a search through their old PayPal payments and discover the error. I've seen payments over two months old, still sitting 'unclaimed' in a non-existent account that's similar in name to my own. I would have thought that money would be returned to the sender within that time frame.
posted on October 19, 2000 07:30:00 AM new
Excuse me but I think I see a few posters with tar and feathers in their hands. Go back and reread the initial post. Jereth made it clear that he expected Paypal to refuse additional payments once the account reached the $500 limit.
"They should be turning down the transactions completely and face the buyer's wrath. Instead, they collect the money, hold it as 'ransom' for my eventual upgrade, and earn that precious 'float' on that money in the meantime. Seems almost, um, well, crooked."
Also, the question of "what happens to the payment?" if the seller does not upgrade is important to EVERYBODY. Jereth is not asking for special favors. Where do you read that? Just because he didn't rush to upgrade before the 10/16 deadline? (Reminds me of Cinderella and the glass slipper.)
BTW, he is the top-rated seller at eBay. So show a little respect you guyz. Jereth is our TOTEM. This seller should be carried everywhere in a special chair so that his feet never touch the ground.
posted on October 19, 2000 07:38:50 AM new
For clarification, here's the email you will get when you're over the $500 limit and someone makes a credit card payment to you through PayPal payments. The link below is a personalized link to a personal upgrade page for my account at PayPal. At this link you are given the option of upgrading or not upgrading.
The option of simply continuing to accept 'free' transfers of payments from within the PayPal system (NOT credit card payments) is no longer available, in other words. Mr. XXXXX below believes I have his money, until I upgrade or I do not. Inter-account transfers of money DO are coming through to me in normal fashion now, whether or not I upgrade, apparently.
<<You've got cash!
This email confirms that XXXXX XXXXXX has sent $25.00 to your Personal Account.
Note: You have reached the Credit Card Receiving Limit on Personal Accounts.
To learn more about PayPal's Credit Card Receiving Policy and to accept or
deny this payment, please go to https://secure.paypal.x.com/udp/id=uDAnI8E9ivtjJpBwgxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>>
I suppose if I did not upgrade at this point the sender receives an email from PayPal advising of this. If I decide to try this tactic I'll let you know what happens from the buyer's standpoint.
posted on October 19, 2000 07:41:56 AM new
BTW thanks for the note, Twinsoft, I just showed Marie your post and she blushed as red as a beet. She's the lifeblood of this business here, not me. I just like buying used CDs and screwing around on the Internet.
posted on October 19, 2000 07:53:20 AM new
Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but it appeared that Jereth thought PayPal would just reject customer's attempts to pay via PP once he hit the $500 limit.
AND that the customer's would be aggravated enough to complain & PP would reconsider it's policy.
AND that given his high level of sales, PP might make exception for the business he brings their way.
Unfortunately, none of that happened. Now, whether he can just close his account & get the "frozen" funds out or if he has to upgrade to get the funds out is still at issue.
Jereth, now that you know customer's won't be rejected by PP & that they aren't going to make an exception for you, I assume you are going to make a decision whether to close your account or upgrade based upon that knowledge?
I see no whining by Jereth..just that some assumptions made on his part didn't pan out & now he has to decide where to go from here.
As to "entitlement", it's a standard business practice..when you are the biggest buyer or seller on the block, you generally get different service from the rest. That's a fact of business life & all this bashing of him is really misplaced.
I happen to be one of the biggest buyers of a particular item I need for my ebay sales from a supplier. You BET I expect & demand some higher level of service from that supplier. If I don't get it, I'll take my business elsewhere. It's not "entitlement" but business leverage.
posted on October 19, 2000 08:26:05 AM new
I accept your chastising comments but... the word "freeloader" still keeps popping into my head. My perception is that this type of mindset is acceptible and justifiable as in "if you can get away with it, why not?" I continue to believe that Honest is like Pregnant... you either are or you are not. At some point, in order to access a PayPal account and maintain Personal Account status, the user had to click on "not a seller". Some of us were naive (and honest) and told the truth.
posted on October 19, 2000 08:44:26 AM new
"I continue to believe that Honest is like Pregnant... you either are or you are not."
That cuts both ways ... PayPal has yet to be upfront with its customers. It continues to make changes without fully thinking them through, then fails to inform its customers (or buries the important information so far down a promotional e-mail that no one sees it). Then PayPal sends its one-man spin patrol to confuse issues even more.
BTW, no one had to click on that "not a seller" button -- or either of the upgrade buttons. The "back" button took care of that. The upgrade or die screen never came up again.
posted on October 19, 2000 09:01:17 AM new
I don't see any big moral benefit to being naive. That screen was a psychological ploy and you fell for it that's all. PayPal has been sending double messages about whether 'any' sales makes one a business.
By the way, were you aware that PayPal also has a TOS clause that says if you have a business or premium account you are also required to have all licenses and permits for running a business?
posted on October 19, 2000 09:52:44 AM new
KateArtist:
I hope you aren't suggesting that some internet sellers don't already HAVE the required licenses and permits! Where I live, you are even required to get a permit in order to have a yard sale. (I've heard that some folks don't pay taxes on their earnings through auction sales and there are also some who don't collect/pay sales tax on their in-state sales. Those folks must be the ones who are NOT naive).
Since my sales are low volume and the fees amount to only a few dollars, I have asked myself if I would have done anything different if I were a high volume seller and the fees would have been in the hundreds of dollars. Didn't have to spend a lot of time on it though.
Guess I'll just keep "bumbling along" trying to do the right thing.
posted on October 19, 2000 10:03:59 AM new
Jareth -- Two things I'd like to know, since you're the guinea pig for Paypal's coerced upgrade program....
(1) You quoted an e-mail saying that you could go to their web site and "accept or deny" the payments. Can you in fact reject the credit card payments one by one, and, if so, what message does the sender receive?
(2) Can the sender cancel the payment? Is it listed as "Pending" or "Completed" on their account history?
posted on October 19, 2000 10:11:14 AM new
"(I've heard that some folks don't pay taxes on their earnings through auction sales and there are also some who don't collect/pay sales tax on their in-state sales. Those folks must be the ones who are NOT naive). "
No, msmas, those are the ones who ARE naive enough to think they won't get caught.
posted on October 19, 2000 11:09:00 AM new
You don't need a license to pay taxes. You also don't need a business license to sell yard sale items. According to my tax lawyer I am not required by law to have a business license for what I do.
The TOS clause doesn't say you only should have a license if you are required to by law, it says you are supposed to have a business license if you have a business or premium account.
Apparently you are supposed to have a business license if you accept more than 500 dollars with a credit card payment, if you are just selling the family car.
Be my guest - and bumble along. I just don't see anything superior in your ethics.
[ edited by KateArtist on Oct 19, 2000 11:11 AM ]
posted on October 19, 2000 11:25:30 AM new
comic 123:
abingdoncomputers, you've never used Paypal & Paypal isn't open down under so all your statements are 2nd hand from what other users state & you jumping on 1 side of the fence.
I beg your pardon? I most certainly have used PayPal. As a matter of fact, I have a business account (that I no longer use thank you) and I have "verified" 2 bank accounts with PayPal. And I have no idea where you got the idea that I'm from "Down Under" (no offense to my Aussie friends). I'm from the USA (Virginia), not Australia.
YOUR statements are incorrect and it's rather obvious that you haven't been reading these PayPal threads until very recently or you would know better than to make foolish assumptions about someone else's status and opinions.
posted on October 19, 2000 11:59:35 AM new
Books asked:
>>>Jareth -- Two things I'd like to know, since you're the guinea pig for Paypal's coerced upgrade program....
(1) You quoted an e-mail saying that you could go to their web site and "accept or deny" the payments. Can you in fact reject the credit card payments one by one, and, if so, what message does the sender receive?
(2) Can the sender cancel the payment? Is it listed as "Pending" or "Completed" on their account history?<<<
(1) no, you're given the choice of upgrading or not upgradng the account as a whole. You are not able to pick and choose. I suppose if I click 'don't upgrade' the money will be returned to the credit-card-paying customers. I wish I was ultra-sure of that.
posted on October 19, 2000 12:38:39 PM new
I expect this will be locked soon, but wanted to respond to VARGAS' earlier post:
You are indeed correct. PayPal has been less than honorable and I suspect will continue to "shoot itself in the foot". My point was simply that lack of integrity on the part of PayPal doesn't justify the "lets see how much I can get away with" attitude that seems to prevail. (Again, my perception).
Edited to remove a redundant word.
[ edited by msmas on Oct 19, 2000 12:40 PM ]
posted on October 19, 2000 01:58:01 PM new
While I think it is wrong and foolish for a large volume seller to just sit back collecting payments into a personal account and wait for something to happen, I still think that it is very wrong for paypal to accept payments into that accout and then hold it hostage. For months we have been asking for an accept/reject button and Damon kept promising it was on the way. Now we know why it hasnt come. It's a great way for paypal to fill their bank account with money. The recipient cant send it back and the customer cant cancel it. It stinks and it also sounds illegal.
I have a business account and my wife has a personal account. Since we use the same computer, sometimes a customer will get an email from my wife's ID concerning one of my items. Even though it will say "paypal to xxx," the customer sometimes just sends it to the Id of the email. So my wife will get a payment meant for me. The problem is she uses it mostly to buy and occasionally sell small items in the below $10 range and I sell digital cameras in the $500 range. if one of my payments was to go to her account, she would be forced to upgrade or all the funds would be frozen. To me this is extortion. When I accepted CC directly, I had to option of accepting or rejecting a customer. The other payment services all have an accept/reject button. PP has a great scam going. Now suppose a customer sends me $500, I withdraw it and then he changes his mind. I send him back the $500, which now comes from my CC. Now PP has charged me 1.9% for receiving it. Now the customer has to upgrade or he wont get his money back. And PP will charge him 1.9% for receiving it. So they make 3.8% for nothing. By the way, when you credit back a credit card, ALL FEES ARE RETURNED. Someone pays me $500, I receive $485 (assuming 3% is charged). If I return that $500, the customer gets $500 but I am charged only $485. If credit cards work that way, why doesnt PP? The more I learn about them, the more my stomach turns. There is a difference between charging an honest fee and ripping people off and I believe they have crossed it. http://www.ygoodman.com [email protected]
