posted on October 19, 2000 03:00:12 PM new
"I'd assumed they would just block payment...
- When announcing the $500 limit Paypal described exactly what would happen when it is exceeded, including that the transactions would appear as "pending" and can be canceled by sender, or completed upon the receiver upgrading.
posted on October 19, 2000 03:51:23 PM newmsmas -- You're making great good sense, both business and moral. Count me on your side.
ioughta -- So sorry. I didn't notice that Jareth was feeling discouraged. What I observed was merely a bit of shock that his well-thought out *business decision* on the PayPal upgrade issue blew up in his face.
Business decisions. I love it. The way he uses the term implies that business decisions are somehow ethically and morally neutral. After all, they're just BUSINESS DECISIONS.
I guess you could call that the Tobacco Company School of Business Decisions and Ethics.
posted on October 19, 2000 03:55:44 PM new
Well figmente, I really don't think reading skills are the problem here.
The problem is that PayPal puts one thing out there, then sends its flak to put out something different.
Take the following exchange from another message board (from last night):
quote:
Hello, seems a while back discussion turned to whether or not we as Paypal users (sellers, who pay the fees) would have some way of refusing Credit Card payments.
Damon, any word from "The Upper Level Decision Makers" as to the status of this becoming a reality???? Fair question?
Thanks.
And this response from Damon:
Hi,
My immediate understanding is that this will occur only if a user goes over the 500.00 limit for being able to refuse the payment. I am getting more information on the spec and I will report back my findings when I have all the information.
Damon
PayPal 1
Kind of contradicts the understanding of the rules as you just posted them, doesn't it?
posted on October 19, 2000 03:58:20 PM new
"The way he uses the term implies that business decisions are somehow ethically and morally neutral. After all, they're just BUSINESS DECISIONS.
I guess you could call that the Tobacco Company School of Business Decisions and Ethics."
Isn't all of this exactly what PayPal is perpetrating on its users?
Maybe we should call it the PayPal School of Business Decisions and Ethics.
posted on October 19, 2000 05:46:03 PM new
Not shocked, CleverGirl, but certainly surprised. Surprised, too, at your continued high moral ground re: business and ethical issues.
I'm reminded of an email I have taped to the wall behind me. (As a seller in California I am required to collect Sales Tax from California customers). The email reads in full:
I AM NOT SENDING ANY TAX!!!! If you charge tax that PROVES you are ONLY ON EBAY FOR THE MONEY!!
Now, THAT shocked me. What exactly did he think I was ruining my personal life, my health and my typing fingers FOR, if not for the money? Oh, well....
posted on October 19, 2000 07:47:20 PM new
Some excerpts from email received from PayPal 10/3 which I suspect all members received.
...
This email is to announce that policy. While no rule will satisfy
everyone, we have worked hard to choose one that we believe meets
the criteria above
...
Starting two weeks from now, on Monday, October 16, X.com will
introduce a new limit on PayPal Personal Accounts: a $500 limit on
receiving credit card payments every six months. Following the
implementation of the policy two weeks from now, Personal Accounts
exceeding the $500 limit will no longer be able to accept credit
card payments unless they choose to upgrade to a Premier or Business
Account. Credit card payments sent to a Personal Account in excess
of the limit will be held as "pending" until the recipient chooses
either to accept the payment by upgrading or to return it to the
sender by refusing the payment. (The sender can then resend the
payment from either a bank account or existing PayPal balance.)
...
This message is a policy notification from X.com's PayPal service
...
Hmmm... yes it does say that you can refuse the payment, but without any detail as to how; No hint of any automatic refusals though.
posted on October 19, 2000 08:11:36 PM new
Thank you, Figmente, I had read all of the above. I had honestly thought, though, that the the senders of money would be advised that their payment could not be made until I upgraded my account at my end.
Having said that, I HAVE heard from one of my 'blocked' senders today. He has now been advised by PayPal that his payment will not be formally received by me until I upgrade.
It is not clear to me whether or not they have debited his credit card yet. It also appears this email got to him almost 24 hours AFTER his original attempt to send me money (and approx. 20 hours after my first post to this message board).
posted on October 20, 2000 07:30:23 AM newNot shocked, CleverGirl, but certainly surprised.
Oh, excuse me! LOL -- as far as I'm concerned that's a difference in DEGREE, not kind. But no matter.
Surprised, too, at your continued high moral ground re: business and ethical issues.
Well, even tho I do consider myself a moral and ethical person, including business dealings, in such cases as this it's mostly disdain for those who don't follow the rules because they're -- well, special.
[b]I'm reminded of an email I have taped to the wall behind me. (snip) I AM NOT SENDING ANY TAX!!!! If you charge tax that PROVES you are ONLY ON EBAY FOR THE MONEY!!
[/b]
Too funny.
Just to be clear, tho, I have NO problem with you making as much money as you possibly can. My problem is with the manner in which you acknowledge doing it. But hey, if you don't see what you've been doing as cheating, who am I to try to convince you otherwise? I couldn't possibly anyway -- which is just ONE of the many lessons I've been learning here on AW.
vargas -- Don't misread me. There's NO love lost by me for PayPal and I have been and will continue to be one of their staunchest critics. What THEY do is utterly indefensible.
I just don't see that their faults and failings makes it okay to become a cheat oneself. IMO the best *revenge* is, as someone posted on another thread, UNrecommending them, educating PayPal users who haven't had the opportunity to know about their faults. I also REALLY like the idea of that class action suit. Oh yes, I really do like that idea.
posted on October 23, 2000 12:32:58 AM new
Looks like they are both wrong, but..
Paypal changed their policy and set a limit, he didn't upgrade.
But when he went over the limit of the new policy did Paypal suspend him? No!
They chose to continue accepting payments for him and hold them for extortion.
If they have a new policy, and he didn't comply, they should close his account or at least suspend him.
But if I understand this correctly, Paypal is continuing to accept payments and with-hold them as ransom to meet their demands. Thats unethical!
This is not some dispute over a damaged book, they are charging credit cards with no intention of turning over the funds to the seller until he meets their demands.
I don't care what you think of the dealer, or how many feedbacks he has, that's extortion.
To me it says a lot about what the credit card vendor is capable of and their ethics. Forget about what you think of a 20k fb dealer, what do you think they see in a little 500 fb guy like me.
Just another reminder, I'm a sheep and I'll always keep that in mind when making decisions on people like that.
They made a new rule, but they don't play by the rules!
Cozmo
posted on October 23, 2000 07:44:30 AM new
Uh - Clevergirl - cheating who?
PayPal said that you can use a personal account - you just can't accept more than 500 in credit card charges. Since the seller has no control over what the buyer uses, who was it that 'cheated'?
LOL - these are arbitrary categories that PayPal has decided to use and PayPal came up with the rules. Their TOS of not using personal accounts for ecommerce has no meaning since they never defined their use of their terms and have declined to do so when requested to give a objective definition that can actually be used.
posted on October 23, 2000 06:48:58 PM new
Jereth--So what was the outcome on all of this? Did you upgrade? Did they charge you fees on the first $500? Sorry to make you our test case, but you were the first one to hit the $500.
posted on October 23, 2000 10:31:24 PM new
I own two retail stores and am used to having to pay credit card fees. We would lose thousands of dollars a month if we refused them. I was surprised when PayPal WAS totally free and NOT surprised when they decided to add fees! (I really don't remember them stating that there services would ALWAYS be free or maybe I knew better than to believe it!!)
posted on October 24, 2000 02:22:16 AM new
Well you know what?
I dont even know who Mr. Jereth is? I have even asked publicly for his email address and he hasn't responded.
Nobodies name on here is listed on ebay. Are you you people scared??
Are you dealing with with someone so hostile that you are afraid to give your real identity.
I have dealt with hotmail, anonymous types before, but always thought they were were hiding from their bad past history.
Are you so afraid of ebay, your money maker, than you will run and hide.
Thats sad, you will all sream, but don't have the balls to say who you are when you yell.
You all deserve what you get. If you don't have the guts to say who you are, then shut up and go home.
Its people like that, that ebay depends on taking advantage of. Don't make it worse by taking a stand as "anonymous" and then carry on.
Go home. I lose all respect for you if you pretend to stand up for whats right, but will not sign your name.
This is not a halloween contest, if you want to hide behind a mask, don't make accusations unless you can stand up in public and make your case.
Shame on you, all of you. I do not have a Hotmail account, I’ve never needed one.
And thats the way I look at this posting thing.
Are you scared? Do you not believe in what you say. Are you afraid of retaliation from ebay. If you are, then you are too dependent. They have you by the balls! Either you need to diversify or get off this thread.
I'm sorry, but all you people need to quit hiding behind a false name while whining and either do something about it or shut up!
If you really think you're doing whats right then whats the problem??
You know what, I wrote ebay an email about their real problems, I gave them my real name and told them what they could do if they didn’t fix their real problems.
Hope you can do the same,
Nuff said,
Cozmo227 on ebay,
yes thats me and I'm not affraid of my "business partner"
posted on October 24, 2000 02:34:56 AM newcozmo227
Your post is very close to crossing the line. The AW Community Guidelines require Users to be guided by basic etiquette when posting. Please take the time to reacquaint yourself with the CGs before posting again.
posted on October 24, 2000 02:47:10 AM new
sourpuss
Well, since you spoke up. Who are you? You want to yell and scream, whats your id, all you guys hide while you yell.
I will take a stall on principle with ebay, I'm not afraid, are you??
What about the the guy who started this thread, you have any guts or just want us to sympathy with your Paypal problem?
posted on October 24, 2000 06:46:43 AM new
I want to thank all of you who have posted here for your ideas and comments. I do not have thousands of feedback. I have about 80 and let me tell you the $500.00 limit is fast approaching. Knowing what you have all shared, I will certainly figure out what I am going to do with my PayPal account very soon! (still undecided as of this minute).Thanks Again...Cris.....
posted on October 24, 2000 07:01:08 AM new
[b]Uh - Clevergirl - cheating who?
PayPal said that you can use a personal account - you just can't accept more than 500 in credit card charges. Since the seller has no control over what the buyer uses, who was it that 'cheated'?
LOL - these are arbitrary categories that PayPal has decided to use and PayPal came up with the rules. Their TOS of not using personal accounts for ecommerce has no meaning since they never defined their use of their terms and have declined to do so when requested to give a objective definition that can actually be used.[/b]
Aw gee, Kate, I think you've lapsed into the realm of "what the definition of is is" with this argument.
If you've read many of my posts, you KNOW I'm no PayPal fan whatsoever. My account is closed forever, and I've been very vocal about their OUTRAGEOUS, indefensible faults and foibles, which are legion. I think PayPal deserves just about whatever it gets in the form of negative publicity, a mass exodus of closed accounts and class action lawsuits. They are inept, lying corporate scum of the earth, AFAIC.
I just don't see that as any justification for a PowerSeller to CONTINUE to use them and NOT play by their TOS. Whether PayPal adequately defined what is a viable ecommerce *business* or not, it doesn't take any smarts at all to recognize that being a PowerSeller must surely qualify someone for their TOS requirement that *businesses* must upgrade.
Lots of *little* sellers upgraded when asked to or shortly thereafter. Some of them actually wanted the extra functionality [ ?? ], but many did so because they decided that even tho small they were, indeed, businesses.
Cheating a cheater still leaves you a cheater. The way to *get back* at PayPal the cheater, IMO, is to advertise their faults and failings as diligently and widely as Sellers once advertised their wonderful *free* service. AND take our business elsewhere, which is what I did. I've been very pleased at how willingly PayPal users sign up for ExchangePath. There may come a day when we'll all be dropping them too, but for now it's a great alternative.
posted on October 24, 2000 07:22:47 AM new
Clevergirl - would you be willing to share what you put in your auction listing to recommend ExchangePath? I've been simply listing it, but no takers. I need some ideas for phasing out PayPal. Maybe if I can present ExchangePath as a desirable alternative, I'll have better luck.
If you don't want to post it here, could you email me? I'm [email protected]
posted on October 24, 2000 07:28:32 AM new
Here's my latest. I keep tweaking it to get the point across:
You can use the FREE payment services of Exchangepath (which will also give you $10 on your first transaction until 10/24), Payplace, Western Union's Moneyzap, Yahoo's Paydirect. Exchangepath accepts all credit cards including American Express and Discover. No credit card? Use your checking account with Achex. Not in a hurry? Pay by check or money order.
Due to problems many users have reported with Paypal, it is not our recommended method of payment. For the convenience of those folks who insist on using Paypal despite all the problems, we will accept it only if you have a verified account (we are verified). Unless you pay from your existing Paypal balance or bank account, add 1.9% more for using paypal with a credit card. You must email first BEFORE sending payment. http://www.ygoodman.com [email protected]
posted on October 24, 2000 08:17:43 AM new
Clevergirl, or whoever knows, please tell me about the "faults and foibles" of PayPal. I am a medium sized seller on Ebay. I am not verified on PayPal and have been wrestling with the idea. I do not like the fees. All of the articles in Business reports and Ebay magazine touted the service as FREE with them making their money off of the float. Apparently that is not enough, but somehow, somewhere I am missing all of the other problems and hidden costs. Sorry to be so dense, but could someone enlighten me. Thanks, Meredith
posted on October 24, 2000 08:24:12 AM new
HI Meredith -
there's a ton of info on this in the Message Center category for Partner services (scroll down your screen to find it).
yisgood: thank you for sharing your TOS. I need to work up something similar. I try to look at it from the buyer's perspective, though, and to them, PayPal is free, too. They are probably already signed up and ready to use it, so why would they go through the bother of signing up for another service?
The only incentive I see is to be able to use their credit card if I, as their seller, no longer take credit cards via PayPal. I think there is still a lot of brand loyalty for PayPal, and I am worried about how it will affect my bottom line if I stop taking credit card payments that way. I look at my transaction history and most of my PP buyers are using their credit cards.
On the other hand, many of you are reporting that PP users will switch to ExchangePath, so I probably just need to write a TOS that promotes it (and PayDirect) as the only way I can take credit cards at this time, while leaving the option open to use PP by account transfer.
posted on October 24, 2000 09:29:33 AM newONE MORE TIME
I'm sure there will be a big ole thread regarding this as soon as someone hits the $500 and does the upgrade, but for now, is no one seeing the Bear in the Woods?
Once you reach the $500, if you decided to upgrade, did you get a big fat chunk taken away to pay the paypal commission on the first $500?????
posted on October 24, 2000 11:59:48 AM new
cozmo- before you condemn everyone that has posted on this thread about not using their ebay seller name do your homework, a few of us do, and I know some can't because other people are using the name they registered on ebay on the boards. I don't think I can post jereths email address, or his ebay user name, here but if you do a little searching, took me less than a minute, on ebay for what he sales you'll know who he is. Maybe they would have sent you an email if you had posted your email address in the room so they could. maybe they are not watching this thread anymore, maybe they have upgraded their account and moved on.
heygrape- hit my limit on Friday last week, upgraded yesterday. all the payments that were made by credit card were emailed to me with the subject of the email telling me I had hit my limit on free PayPal transactions. all the payments that were made by payment transfers, as in they had a balance in their account and they just transferred monies came through OK. when I upgraded all the transaction that I had received over the 500.00 were charged the fees. non of the 500.00 that I had received down to the last .03 that could be transferred was charged a fee.
my gripes with them now, they don't have a system or a way to separate the fees they charge in a statement. when I had my merchant account(I dropped the account about 3 months after PayPal started up) I received a statement every month with a breakdown of the charges and fees. the merchant account cost me .11 per authorization and 1.770% compared to their .25 and 1.9%, not a big difference but over a year it adds up. I really think for a company that is owned by a bank(x.com) they really put the cart before the horse. they had to know that they were lacking on the services and functions that a business needs but still they forced us to upgrade into a system that is not ready. If you want you can download the history of the account into a spread sheet and pull it out that way, but you would think someone would have thought about stuff like this before they forced the upgrade.
what good do I have to say about the upgrade? I did get to a person on the phone that was very helpful, she only deals with the business accounts. I have only ever had to call two times before and it was a big pain, the people couldn't answer my question, but I did get a call back in about an hour, maybe two. If they deliver what they claim, the debit card, interest on the balance in your account, a way to verify that the email was sent by PayPal, etc. I will have less of a problem with the fees they charge, after all you should get what you pay for, right?
posted on October 24, 2000 12:25:50 PM new
everyone needs to relax a bit. PayPal did not handle this well, but give em a break. If you don't like PayPal, then comply with their upgrade, pull your $ out, then leave for a competing service that delivers you better value.
They are BLEEDING money trying to stay in business, not that they aren't going to be wealthy someday.
How many of YOU are willing to BLEED money just to serve other people's sense of entitlement?
posted on October 24, 2000 12:35:05 PM new
My problem has never been with the fee. I upgraded early and thought the fee was fair. My problem is with the lies behind it, the way they forced people to upgrade, the way they double-charge (you can't refuse a payment and if you send it back to a business account, they collect it on BOTH ends. Even a credit card refunds the fee if the charge is refunded.) I am also appalled at the way they handle problems with restricting accounts with no warning while still accepting money into them. It is for all these reasons that I would like to give it up altogether. But thanks to their lies and their viral marketing, I have convinced too many people to sign up. So I'll recommend other services. Since that doesnt work completely, I'll charge them for the "priviledge" of using PP, just like I am charged. There is no reason why I should suffer in silence. If PP ever does offer real protection as they promised, I will recommend it and I will consider the fees a fair price to pay for what is offered. Right now I see it as extortion by a company trying to make us pay for their mistakes. http://www.ygoodman.com [email protected]
posted on October 24, 2000 12:44:33 PM new
johnbuddyboy
they set the rules, if they are as you say "bleeding money" to stay in business then that's their fault, not ours. perhaps they should have stopped the bleeding by pulling the referral bonuses, or never have offered them in the first place.
that's one of the things that made it easy for me to upgrade, I have a small stash of their money from referrals. I guess I'll just be giving it back to them now in fees, by the time we get about even there will probably be something bigger and better on the block.
