You wrote:
"No need for a complicated account system, a credit card will work just fine. Like at Onsale, you enter a credit card when placing your bid. When the auction ends, that credit card automatically gets charged. Funds go the the seller. No collection needed."
That is exactly what we had bidsafe at auction universe.com. Had it been more popular a they wouldn't be belly up now.
posted on October 20, 2000 10:01:56 PM
You do know that most of the GENERAL American public isn't too giddy of releasing something as sacred as a Credit Card Info on eBay or any Internet Site.
If this were to happen (the required CC registration for all bidders), Meg would have a very hard time explaining to the shareholders why profits and user registration have decreased. And, the seller, i.e. YOU, would have to find somewhere else to get your bids.
You can't impliment something without it hitting you back hard. Think about it.
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
posted on October 20, 2000 10:20:56 PM
MrPotatoHead - checked my recent stats, a nice even 33 percent of my winning bidders were deadbeats. Ugh. This is a serious problem, waste of time and listing fee money!
Any idea to get rid of deadbeats is good, no matter the consequence. Borillar, your idea was so good I almost wet myself. I was thinking "Why the HELL would these companies not invest into such a money making scheme, and get rid of the deadbeats!".
The answer? Meg is a lazy dummkopf. Banks are busy themselves staying open Monday-Friday, 9AM to 5PM, and the best customer service, they don't have time for billions in profit. eBay is to concerned about getting big ticket sellers, to whom when someone deadbeats then, gets a new #*!@ promptly.
Why should they care? They have their listing fees, and all the deadbeat accounts = more e-mail addresses to sell to spammers.
posted on October 20, 2000 10:35:57 PM
Once again we punish the good ones.
Jake, NEWS FLASH: not everyone can GET a credit card (bad credit, no credit, too low of an income) yet that doesn't mean they can't afford the $15 widget on eBay. Not everyone WANTS a credit card even if they can get them. Some people, myself included, know their weaknesses and would rather just avoid the temptation a credit card brings. Same with my phone service; I opt for local only phone service with a 1 hour free long distance each month because I *know* my willpower sucks and I'd run up $200 phone bills every month.. and yes I'd pay them, but I'd rather just not have them in the 1st place. My phone service doesn't allow long distance calls to be placed after the free hour is used up and it suits me FINE.
Having said that, I shop online all the time, using a debit Visa card. I only shop when I have money in the checking account. A lot of online stores are now accepting electronic checks as well.
I have been buying and selling on eBay since 1998, and I have NEVER defaulted on an auction. I have also bid on many items when I didn't have the money at the time I placed the bid. Scanadlous? No. I bid on an item that ends on the 3rd knowing I'll be getting money from a paycheck or whatever on the 31st. If I was required to pay upfront I wouldn't bid. I get the money to the seller within their terms, every time, so I don't see why people like myself should be punished for the deadbeats.
Deadbeats are a headache, yes, but driving away the honest bidders isn't a solution.
posted on October 20, 2000 10:57:52 PM
The problem w/the "one solution fits all" is that there are huge differences in customer bases between ebay categories.
If you sell in a category w/a relatively low deadbeat percentage, then this solution isn't very appealing.
However, if you sell in a category w/a high deadbeat percentage, you want (& need) help.
We all need to do a better job in understanding that our experiences in our particular areas of selling on ebay are quite different from those that sell in other categories we don't sell in.
The next problem is that what helps out one group will most likely not benefit, or may even hurt, those in the other group.
I'm not sure there is a compromise solution for this problem. A good first step would be for ebay to start tightening & enforcing the rules on deadbeats. But so long as we are selling under one set of rules, there probably isn't going to be one that meets everyone's needs.
posted on October 20, 2000 11:35:03 PM
I have to say that enforcing "Rules" is not a direction that you can make eBay go. Actually, they do not want any rules to enforce at all if they could. They want to be "just a venue" and leave it at that.
I agree with reddeer that I would not want to see everyone forced to use a credit card. In reality, a credit card is no substitute for a real bank account at a federally protected brick and mortar bank. While other places on the Internet may make you pay for your purchases with either a credit card or no purchase, I honestly believe that eBay is a different animal altogether and that business phylosophy isn't going to work here.
Then, you have the question of why even bother to deal with deadbeats at all? If you think about it, brick and mortar establishments get very little business from deadbeats. It's Cash-on-the-Barrel/Pay-As-You-Go. This solution would work terrific for eBay. Here's why:
EBay has a big problem with adding new Sellers. By not doing anything about deadbeats, deadbeats are encouraged to join to have fun screwing Sellers over. That's not the sort of thing that is going to attract many new Sellers to eBay.
Certainly, asking eBay to require verification in this era of unprescidented corporate backstabbing of customers and unethical behavior makes people not want to give anything out that they don't have to about themselves. And who would want eBay to have so much personal info about themselves? By having a a well-established brick and mortar bank involved, where privacy is tighter than your doctor, dentist, and lawyer combined, this would be a safer choice. Certainly, if you opened an eBay user acccount at Wells Fargo, you are protected AND verified at the same time.
Requiring all bidders to put cash up-front is hardly puntative in nature. Everyone has to do it if they want to place bids - period. No singling out anyone. it would be a fair system.
Amy: You said, "This "solution" reminds me of killing a gnat with a sledge hammer...just a tad bit of overkill!"
What and whose solution are you referring too?
edited for sin-tax
[ edited by Borillar on Oct 20, 2000 11:39 PM ]
posted on October 21, 2000 12:14:04 AMBorillar you said: "Requiring all bidders to put cash up-front is hardly puntative in nature. Everyone has to do it if they want to place bids - period. No singling out anyone. it would be a fair system"
Fact remains, it would discourage those who bid like I do from bidding on things, or from placing early bids.
As I said previously, I will often place a bid BASED on the knowledge that my direct-deposited check will be in by the time the auction is over.
If I were required, instead, to have that money available at the time I placed the bid, I'd either wait til the end of the auction to bid if the dates worked out (i.e. paycheck comes on the 1st, auction closes on the 2nd) or most likely, "watch" the item and forget to go back and bid on it.
I would no longer be able to bid based on my formula of "Well, auction ends on the 1st, paycheck arrives on the 1st, I can get money that day and mail payment"...
And at the risk of sounding ridiculous or blasphemous, I realize that deadbeats are a HUGE PROBLEM. As a seller, they make me very angry. On the other hand, other than *time* spent sitting on an item waiting for money and *time* spent re-listing (which I realize should be considered), the problem isn't as huge to me as it seems to be to some. After all, *I* still have the item, I get my fees back from eBay with the NPB process, it's not like I'm out the item AND the money. MOST relists get more the second time around, for whatever reason, in my experience.
So while I agree some changes should be made, I think that some react as if they're losing thousands by the minute due to the deadbeat problem and I am having trouble seeing how that is the case.
posted on October 21, 2000 01:36:53 AM
Borillar...yours, and the modifications that have been presented.
I understand that some categories have a larger deadbeat ratio than others..but the problem is still not huge. The solution you propose seems like overkill.
Yes, deadbeats can be annoying..but the seller still has the goods and can relist. And as BlackCoffeeBlues has said..most items seem to get more the second time around which seems to compensate for the extra listing fees paid.
Deadbeats are a fact of life in online auctions...just as bad checks, theft, breakage, and layaways that are never paid for, are in real life shops.
Your solution would require every bidder to open a bank account with one bank (you suggested Wells Fargo). I question if that would even be legal...I wonder if that could end up going afoul of federal banking laws.
You frequently post threads telling new sellers how to be professional...and how to give good customer service..how to keep the customer coming back..yet you propose a solution to a relatively minor problem (minor because the seller still has the merchandise) that would drive buyers away in droves.
I know that if I were required to have a second bank account just to buy on ebay and had to keep it funded "just in case" I saw something I wanted to bid on I would tell ebay to "s**ew it". I wouldn't want to leave funds in some account waiting till I wanted to bid on something.
posted on October 21, 2000 04:05:19 AM
It's not a gnat and it's not a sledgehammer. Borillar made a suggestion that she believes would work. At least it is a positive constructive idea. Deadbeats may not be a problem for you, but for many they are. The idea that items usually sell for more when relisted has no basis in fact. If it did, we'd all be hoping for deadbeats.
The seller IS indeed out the money, in a sense, because the deadbeat bidder probably outbid other serious bidders who would have paid nicely. Consider the analogy with a retail store. A customer comes in and says, "I like it, will you put it on hold for me for ONE MONTH?" You say "fine," because that's the way the store is set up. In the meantime, several other customers come in and say, "I'll pay you for it right now." But you say, "No, it's on hold for one month for someone." Then, after a month, the customer doesn't come back.
This is the situation you have with deadbeats, not even mentioning the hours spent on bookeeping, sending reminders and filing for credits. Between 8/11 and 9/11 I recorded 42 deadbeats totalling $818. In response to several posts, notice that this is money I AM PUTTING ON HOLD FOR MY DEADBEAT CUSTOMERS. At this point, I say "take 'em out and shoot 'em."
Excuse me, now I must go leave 29 negative feedbacks.
posted on October 21, 2000 08:40:34 AM
Half.com uses a credit card payment system that seems to work just fine, and there you have thousands of sellers just like at ebay.
Amazon's 1-Click payment also works very well.
BlackCoffeeBlues: A Visa debit card works just like a credit card, no problem there. You wouldn't be paying upfront, just entering your card info so if you win, then you would automatically get charged.
posted on October 21, 2000 09:02:31 AM
I don't think that most people are really worried about posting a CC number online. It's part and parcel of Internet commerce.
However, the real problem is that eBay seems to have the same attitude towards deadbeat bidders as the DOJ does towards the shenanigans in the White House.
posted on October 21, 2000 10:02:35 AM
I'm not insensitive to the problems others are having with deadbeats, but since the solutions being proposed to solve this problem are being made by those whose who are thinking of how it might affect their business, I'm going to comment on how they might affect mine.
I don't want eBay to do anything more than they are doing right now. There- I said it. Deadbeats are not a problem for me, and any change that restricts the ability of buyers to bid has the potential to hurt my sales.
Selfish? Not any more so than those who would put up more and larger hurdles for prospective bidders in order to protect themselves from deadbeats.
You want buyers to register with a credit card? eBay already has a voluntariy verification program- why not ask eBay for a checkbox on the listing page that you can check off which will only allow verified buyers to bid on your items, and block bids from all others?
posted on October 21, 2000 04:52:50 PM
twinsoft - I almost gaged on my coffee reading your last line.
29 NEGATIVES?!?! Holy bejesus, that is just to much! As the one person who said if you can't handle a credit card to be placed online, you shouldn't be online. I whole-heartly agree with that person.
Most places accept a debit card, and I would think virtually everyone would have a checking account. I don't see why people with no credit would be shopping online... shouldn't they be looking for ways to get credit instead? America, sheesh.
In Bor's lastest post, they put some very good reason and points to each part of the proposal. Get rid of deadbeats, less worry, quicker money, and beautiful essence of selling online.
Also, a major factor seems to come into play of people with a larger deadbeat percentage want this, while others with a small percentage don't want it.
I can't seem to see why low percentage people don't really give a #*!@ and directly oppose? Why? Do you enjoy your deadbeats? Do you enjoy your retalitory negs you receive from them (before they get NARUd, the mark is still there, though)? I just can't understand it!
posted on October 21, 2000 04:56:30 PM"Borillar...yours, and the modifications that have been presented."
Thank you, Amy, for answering my question with your usual unconstructive criticisms below:
"I understand that some categories have a larger deadbeat ratio than others..but the problem is still not huge. The solution you propose seems like overkill."
The problem is not really so much as the theft of our money by these deadbeats, so much as it is bad advertising which hurts both Sellers and Buyers alike. Allowing deadbeats total freedom to wreak havock at will as is the situation right now, many Sellers are leaving eBay for a more stable business platform. That means less choices for the Buyers and less competition for Sellers - which also translates to higher prices. Not good for anyone.
For brick and mortar retail establishments, shoplifting is a real problem. First, people did not steal, simply because it was something that you just did not do. Then, with our permissive society and lack of jail space and judicial employees, shoplifting became more and more of a serious problem because there was no real penalty! How many times as a retail chain store manager I called the police after capturing a shoplifter that they never bothered to show up? We weren't allowed to chop off a finger or a hand, so shoplifters are given free reign!
That's exactly the case with deadbeats on eBay. Deadbeats cause Sellers time, money, energy, and profits. There is no punishment, no penalty of any sort, so the problem will only grow bigger and bigger. There's your fact of life.
"Yes, deadbeats can be annoying..but the seller still has the goods and can relist. And as BlackCoffeeBlues has said..most items seem to get more the second time around which seems to compensate for the extra listing fees paid."
I have to agree with twinsoft that relisting does not guarantee higher prices. If it did, I'd never allow an item to be sold the first time that it was bid on and won.
"Deadbeats are a fact of life in online auctions...just as bad checks, theft, breakage, and layaways that are never paid for, are in real life shops."
Deadbeats do not have to be a fact of life in online auctions! That will only be true if nothing is ever done about it.
Because deadbeats do not have to be a fact of life, there is no sense in simply classifing them as a business loss. Besides, I doubt if you've ever managed a retail store before.
"Your solution would require every bidder to open a bank account with one bank (you suggested Wells Fargo). I question if that would even be legal...I wonder if that could end up going afoul of federal banking laws."
Since Billpoint is run by Wells Fargo Bank - eBay's Banking Partner, I seriously doubt that there would be any problem at all.
"You frequently post threads telling new sellers how to be professional...and how to give good customer service..how to keep the customer coming back..yet you propose a solution to a relatively minor problem (minor because the seller still has the merchandise) that would drive buyers away in droves."
That's a non sequitur, Amy: the one does not follow the other. Can you please rephrase taht statement in a fashion that makes sense?
"I know that if I were required to have a second bank account just to buy on ebay . . . I would tell ebay to "s**ew it"."
I refuse to give the obvious insulting answer that would get me in trouble with AW.
"It's a sledge hammer approach."
No. Actually it's the "Trust - but Verify" policy coined by Ronald Reagan.
Once again, thank you Amy for clarifing your remarks.
posted on October 21, 2000 05:17:40 PMBorillar Is it any wonder why all the other sites that do have stringent registrations, like a CC needed to bid, doesn't have anywhere near the bidders of eBay?
I personally would not ever allow anyone online to charge my credit card without me authorizing that transaction, and reimbursing some "oh whoas me" seller wouldn't be on the list. I would quit online auctions and stick strictly to other options.
I still think a few sellers here should rethink their involvement in the OAI, seems like a bit too much for them.
Ain't Life Grand...
posted on October 21, 2000 05:36:40 PM
Most ISP have an interfearence of commerce clause in their TOS, but I've found that most will not enforce it based on a claim by by a private user. But it would be a simple matter for ebay to send a form letter to abuse@ISP after a bidder racks up 3 Refund Requests.
I have on the other hand gotten one smaller ISP's to terminate a user for deadbeating me on one auction, and they gave me all the contact info they had on him also, and hotmail.com pulled a bidder email account after he started threatening me.
Does anyone know if stating a venue of enforcement in your auction TOS is enforcable and therefore would allow you to sue deadbeats in your local courts?
For example, I use this in my TOS:
"This is an auction and all sales are final. By placing a successful bid, Bidder/buyer is entering into a binding contract for sale with Seller under the laws of the State of California. Venue is established as Los Angeles County, California"
posted on October 21, 2000 05:44:51 PM
Deadbeats are annoying for sure. I have had three out of six auctions on Ebay won by dead beats lately and that is not making me anything too happy. I agree that we are going to have to do something to reduce those kind of figures or the industry is going to suffer greatly. I like the posting of a credit card before bidding or some other way to recover fees from the deadbeats.
posted on October 21, 2000 06:09:27 PM
Interesting thread. I'll throw something out just off the top of my head (admittedly this is usually a mistake) But - instead of requiring a credit card why couldn't there be a minimal registration fee charged to bidders before they are allowed to begin bidding. It can be paid through credit card or check. The registration account may only hold $5 to $10 but can be used as a fall back to help sellers recoup listing fees lost through non-paying bidders.
If I sell a widget to John and am forced to relist it for non-payment my relisting fee is deducted from his registration account. Once his registration account is depleted he is NARU.
Of course, this would work best if eBay would offer honest John some type of added incentive for the fact that he is paying a registration fee. In the event that the money isn't used in repayment of listing fees he'd have to believe he was receiving something for his money other than the priviledge of bidding. eBay in the meanwhile is earning interest on the float.
posted on October 21, 2000 10:52:11 PM
hey jake - I pay for my internet connection with a check as my ISP fees are billed on my phone bill as my phone company is my ISP...and some of us don't want to buy into the credit debt plan that you do, good old hard cash is good enough for me.
posted on October 22, 2000 12:04:38 AM
Okay, this is really getting off topic but this is bugging me, so..
Bluee said: "Most places accept a debit card, and I would think virtually everyone would have a checking account. I don't see why people with no credit would be shopping online... shouldn't they be looking for ways to get credit instead? America, sheesh."
"Virtually everyone" would have a checking account? Some people don't WANT one. Again, SOME people, more than you'd think, make it their policy to deal in cash. Granted, if they're going to shop online they'll need something other than cash, but to assume that everyone has or wants a checking account is silly.
I really don't understand your point about people with no credit shopping online. Do you think the only thing you can buy online is jewelry, computer gadgets, overpriced clothing (a la Spiegel's) and other "fun stuff"?? If so, where've you been? I can (and do) buy groceries, pet food, medicine, car parts, Christmas gifts (yes, even inexpensive ones, like the hard to find book I just scored on eBay for my Dad for under $1 because it was poorly titled), school supplies, you name it, online. Last I checked these weren't items only limited to those with lots of money or excellent credit. Why wouldn't someone buy these things online instead of spending precious time driving around town to get the same things, and what the heck does credit have to do with it?
"Shouldn't they be looking for ways to get credit instead".. again, what in the world does this statement mean? If you have bad credit/no credit, you should be forever searching for a high interest rate card from a company that will *maybe* accept your application for a $100 yearly fee, and then you can be ever so grateful to them just so you can join the rest of the world in their massive debt problems? And you somehow shouldn't have the luxury of buying your pet food online instead of lugging those 20lb bags into the cart yourself until you get some credit? And of course, everyone *wants* credit and credit cards, right? Sheesh. This entire post of yours just made no sense to me. Perhaps you will clarify.
I'm not anti-credit or pro-credit, I just do resent the way not having credit cards is so often linked to worthiness as a human being. It's an absurd thing to observe in this society.
Sheri
[email protected]
[ edited by BlackCoffeeBlues on Oct 22, 2000 12:07 AM ]
posted on October 22, 2000 12:26:36 AM
I understand Yahoo recently instituted such a CC policy. It hasn't been the panacea you might envision.
Bidding is way off, according to some of the threads on the Yahoo board here.
Judging by my meager, but pleasantly unexpected, sales there this week (my first), I'd opt to leave ebay credit card-less. I'd rather deal with deadbeats than beg for bidders.
posted on October 22, 2000 06:19:47 AM
The only way to not have deadbeat bidders is to not sell. Just as the only way to end shoplifting is to close your store.
Credit Card registration will not help. They will still cancel the transaction.
The number one reason for non-payment (IMO) is over-extension. After close examination of the deadbeat bidders we have had over the last few months we have found the following trends:
* All had 10 feedbacks or less
* All had more than 20 winning bids
* All were registered less than 30 days
This tells me that the average Deadbeat recently discovered Ebay and went nutz. After years of collecting widgets one at a time, and spending countless weekends perusing flea markets and antique malls, they discovered the mother-load. They figured ... "let me bid on them all, I might get lucky and win a few of them" ... little did they know, most things on Ebay sell with only one bid. So ... seven days later, what was expected to be 3 to 4 wins at $25 each ends up 25 wins for $625. In walks the spouse, and the rest is history.
A similar situation happened to me a couple weeks ago. I picked out several lots at a very famous auction house. Placed absentee bids for just over the opening bid on several lots expecting to win 2 or 3 at best. At the end of the auction, I had won nearly all the lots I bid on. In fact, the shipping and buyer's premium alone was more than twice what I had expected to pay for my purchases in total. I was able to pay my auction bill and was quite pleased to have won so many. But many others would have had no choice but to join the growing ranks of deadbeat bidders.
posted on October 22, 2000 06:49:23 AM
Yup that credit card idea sure sounds good. I tried to bid on egghead & that' how it works actually. But its never going to happen.
Anyway my deadbeat % is rather low & hopefully it stays that way. If nothing else deadbeats is a persona of today's society. Now most of us (thankfully) are decent enough to know that auctions means money to the seller. Some sellers are people too & a sale means much needed money in the pockets.
But most of all its about Responsibility. Taking responsibility of our actions & not causing pain & trouble to others. I've had deadbeats who gave lame excuses like 1. My dog is sick 2. My brother bid not me 3. Never bother to reply
You know after awhile that dog trick just don't cut it (it never did the first time anyway). I bet this are the same people who pour hot coffee over themselves & say...yeah I didn't know it was that hot. Alas, this is America today. We make excuses for these people & justify their actions. What a bunch of losers...that's what I say.
Too bad because I will continue to get deadbeats basta$#s even after my rambling.
