posted on October 25, 2000 04:52:21 PM new
Is the fact that bidder's user ID's and e-mail addresses are available to all, namely the people out there, who, rather than conducting there own auctions, prefer to raid and undermine the auctions of other legitimate sellers. IMO this does keep auction prices down, and also lead collectors off Ebay and drive them to other web sites.
I could go on and on about this. I've been talking to Ebay about it for years, and the problem has only gotten much worse over time. I've spoken with other sellers in various categories. Now I'm looking for some input from the AW crowd. What do you say, public or private bidder names and e-mails? What are your reasons for having them public?
posted on October 25, 2000 04:59:53 PM new
I agree with you completely and expect that they will change it eventually. See, Yahoo does not reveal the emails of bidders and Ebay is morphing into Yahoo as quickly as it can having surmised that it is managed in a superior way and realizing that it is just a matter of time those who have not already wake up and see this.
posted on October 25, 2000 05:05:42 PM new
It just happened today. I received an email from a person who was outbid on one of my auctions last night. Someone emailed this person and offered to sell them the same product at a set price. They included their email address and snail mail address. Reported to safe harbor but I think it would be better if our contact info was kept private.
posted on October 25, 2000 05:07:47 PM new
I am primarly a buyer and bid on lots of stuff. I would never buy from a bottomfeeder. I think most people are leery of off-eBay sales since there's no recourse if you get shafted. I think that is rampant but have no sympathy for those who get taken on these sales.
As far as private bidders, I used to think that was the perfect solution until someone on this board somewhere pointed out that the potential for shilling would be enormous if such a move was made by eBay. That sorta killed my enthusiasm for that idea.
posted on October 25, 2000 05:29:36 PM new
In this case you should be happy with eBays new "Buy Now" feature.
You are right, I've had bidders harrased all the time. Pisses me off. I used to run big dutch auctions. 50 items per lot and pay $100 for featured status on eBays main page.
Well these scum sucking bastards will start emailing my 50 bidders telling them where they could go bid for cheaper.
And there is nothing you can do, the bid cancels would come in. 4 or 5 per auction, and then maybe 3 or 4 non pays by 0 ratings who I would then check and see had bid on the same item by another person.
So I started putting in a bid by one another one of my accounts so that I could catch the rats when they emailed me.
Still didn't help. They used a non eBay registered email.
Basically it sucked to be me at that point! I stopped running those feature auctions.
posted on October 25, 2000 06:59:34 PM new
problem is, if that information is hidden it becomes very difficult to ferret out sellers who shill. eBay is sensitive about that too...
posted on October 25, 2000 07:14:35 PM new
In 5 years on eBay I have never encountered the problem. Now I have had a nut write all my bidders on one auction telling them that the item wasn't authentic, fortunately it was a highly unusual item, and those bidding were informed, and blew the nut off.
Personally, as long as I, the seller, can access my bidders then I don't care. But I want access, as many folks forget when an auction is closing and I have always written my bidders the evening before an auction closes to remind them of the close, and thank them for bidding.
I do tons of auctions on Yahoo, and I do not like the fact I have no access to my bidders. I love Yahoo, but I hate that part of their system.
posted on October 25, 2000 07:15:00 PM new
It should still be real easy to see shilling if eBay LOOKS for it! They will have access to the addresses and it is only the cheapo tactic of wanting your other users to police the system for you for free that requires public disclosure.
posted on October 25, 2000 07:57:51 PM new
I've been selling for 3 and a half years on eBay. My email address has always been my user I.D. I've never had a problem with bottom feeders or bid siphoning. I don't get any more unsolicited emails than anyone else.
I want my customers to be able to contact me with the click of a button. I also put email links on every item listing. I'm not in business to hide from my customers.
When I bid on items, I want to know who I'm bidding against. I want to see everything for myself. I want to know who bid what and when. We built this site based on honesty and open trading. Not hidden I.D.s and secrecy. As it stands now, we are all able to freely contact each other for the purpose of conducting business. The more things are hidden, the more dependant we become on eBay and it's system. Should we start letting eBay read all of our email too? Maybe eBay should set up a system that would allows it's members to turn in other users for daring to contact each other outside a transaction. Maybe they could automate it so that we get neat little canned suspensions. Might be a good way to crack down on system abusers, but what about the huge majority of honest dealers?
What happens to free trade? Where do we draw the line? How much big brother do we need?
This is all speculation of course but I don't like giving away any openness and freedom because that always involves consequences and big business isn't known for giving back, once it's taken away.
Ray
Edited to add: So pointy, next time you talk to eBay, put me down as a no vote on hidden email addresses O.K?
[ edited by RM on Oct 25, 2000 08:33 PM ]
posted on October 25, 2000 08:31:54 PM new
I have seen people say in the auction: "If someone emails you regarding this auction either before or after it closes, please send me their email including all of the headers, and I will mail you $5.00!"
posted on October 25, 2000 08:40:20 PM new
Ray (RM) is right. I have never had a problem in two + years of selling on ebay. Maybe because I sell unique antiques, but in any case I think knowing who is bidding is good.
posted on October 25, 2000 08:48:47 PM new
I've never had this problem, to my knowledge, in over 2 years of selling on eBay. Maybe it's only in some comodity areas. I prefer to see who the bidders are.
I suspect shilling by sellers is a more common problem than contacting underbidders- a problem that would no doubt get worse if bidder's emails aren't available.
posted on October 25, 2000 10:37:34 PM new
The question that needs to be asked is "Is there any good reason to have bidders e-mails visible to anyone but the seller?"
I can't think of any good uses for this system. As for preventing shill bidding, ebay would still be able to see all of the bidders info.
posted on October 26, 2000 05:14:20 AM new
Because I've been trading on eBay for such a long time, I've gotten to know quite a few other eBay dealers in my town. I make the rounds and talk to people on a regular basis. According to ALL of those I've spoken with, site stability and availability is the #1 problem they have with eBay. Not unsolicited email or auction interference.
So, "Is there any good reason to have bidders e-mails visible to anyone but the seller?" Yes, because it's open trading. It's all out there for everyone to see. We already have the option of making the auction private. Lets keep it an option only. If a member is having trouble with unsolicited email or auction interference that member can report the activity to eBay and/or use private auctions. The best and most simple method I've found for dealing with unsolicited email is to use my delete key.
In my mind it's far more desirable to keep the integrity of a completely open trading environment than it is to set up a secret, hidden system that makes us even more dependent upon eBay's unstable system "issues".
Why would it not surprise me that eBay would want it's members to hide from each other? Just look at how truly available they are to us (it's own members) now. Hiding from us doesn't work so well for them. Why should hiding from each other work so well for us?
posted on October 26, 2000 06:23:47 AM new
If no one else can see the email address of the bidder, then the seller shouldn't be able to either.
Just like Yahoo, seller can't contact the bidder until there is a winner. and then they do not have access to the underbidders addresses.
I personally won't mind if eBay does it like Yahoo, but I don't think the seller has anymore right to my email addy than the next person unless I win.
Ain't Life Grand...
posted on October 26, 2000 06:25:32 AM new
I had one "helpful" person tell my high bidder that something they were bidding on wasn't so valuable. This resulted in a bid cancellation an hour before close. Fortunately there were some folks who knew better and the high bid flew up again.
I don't think this is a real problem, but it would be nice if eBay set up a monitoring system for this sort of thing. If an ID lookup is followed by a request for bid cancellation from said ID, a notification should go to Safeharbor before pernmitting it. This ain't hard to implement.
posted on October 26, 2000 07:26:24 AM new
kerryann ... "I think most people are leery of off-eBay sales since there's no recourse if you get shafted."
I used to believe that too, but based on the number of complaints that appear on AW, it is apparent that buying through eBay does not provide any additional benefits if you get shafted. The only difference is when you buy through eBay you get to flame the shafter through feedback.
The reason eBay discourages this off-site dealing is obvious, and it has nothing to do with guarantees ...
posted on October 26, 2000 07:44:04 AM new
This issue of hiding email addresses is also motivated by eBay's desire to stop "gray area" or outside the auction sales. Antique and collectible traders know that deals are made in every possible way, shape and form. We'll buy and sell stuff to the people sitting next to us at the same time we're placing bids at the live auction we're attending. Some auction houses do have rules against that, so they ask that those trades take place off the premises. Seems fair to me.
In all fairness to eBay, It's not so much that eBay really wants those "off auction" sales to stop, as it is that eBay wants those "off auction" sales to occur through the auction process, so they get the fees. I don't blame eBay for wanting to be paid for sales which are precipitated by the auction listing. But, how far do we take it?
If I meet an online buyer while completing an eBay transaction and we end up making some private trades between us, should I automatically owe eBay something? I'd say it depends on exactly what we traded and when. If I sold that person a second, duplicate item during that transaction, I'd say I owed eBay the FVF. If, a few days/weeks later, my (now former) customer contacts me privately (via email) and sells me an item that I really wanted (because we got to know each other at eBay), is eBay owed a commission on the sale?
No, eBay isn't entitled to any money from that sale. That sale isn't any of eBay's concern. We have the right to conduct legal business, freely and openly with whomever we choose. eBay is entitled to FVF for some of the "gray area" sales and if eBay would set up an online location where people could quickly and easily report their own sales VOLUNTARILY, I think most people would do it.
Instead of trying to stop "outside sales" or force these sales to take place "on auction", eBay should be taking care of providing a stable system and supporting and communicating with their customers. eBay argues that if the sales take place "off auction", there will be less protection for the traders, no eBay insurance, no dispute resolution process, no feed back. Well, we can take care of our own insurance, there are online dispute resolution services available to us on our own, and eBay could probably set up a way to enable feed back at the time and place that the sale is VOLUNTARILY reported.
We don't need eBay's involvement in every aspect of our businesses and eBay isn't entitled to be that involved, not in a free marketplace.
posted on October 26, 2000 07:56:34 AM new
Well stated Ray. Only I would go a little further and suggest that even if you did sell a "person a second, duplicate item during that transaction" eBay has no rights to any commission for that sale. As a matter of fact, I don't think eBay should have rights to any commission at all for any sales. They charge you a fee to list, they generate huge amounts of revenue through the ads appearing on their site, and they sell YOUR name to SPAMMERS. That should be enough
posted on October 26, 2000 10:00:41 AM new
* * * The NUMBER ONE problem with eBay? It's that sellers write their own auction descriptions! It's eBay's FUNDAMENTAL FLAW.
Even the most crooked real auctioneer would blush to write some of the blatantly dishonest descriptions and titles I see in my own specialty area (old Chinese jades)!
posted on October 26, 2000 11:16:04 AM new
Keep it open. Private auctions are already an option for people who want to avoid bottom feeders emailing their bidders.
Although I have never done it myself and have never bought this way, I have no problem whatsoever with people emailing me to say "Hey, I've got one of these if you want it" as long as it's after the auction is over and I've lost.
posted on October 26, 2000 11:24:17 AM new
I am certainly glad to know this bothers someone besides myself. I received 5 emails last week, "I saw you bid on XXXX and I have one just like it and I'm not listing it. So I'll accept your bid. This jerk kept upping the ante because he watched me get sniped.
Then we have ebay stating that if you take the bait, you'er not entitled to insurance, etc. I also reported it to them. It was not enough information. I know what killed amazon auctions, fixed pricing. Now maybe it will touch ebay, Inc.
So there you have it. It's just words that mean nothing but it does know that SOMEONE is watching ME.
posted on October 26, 2000 03:25:24 PM new
I'm uncomfortable with private auctions. As a buyer I avoid them and as a seller I've never used them. Shills, Deadbeats, Problem buyers, no thanks... that is my view.
posted on October 26, 2000 04:30:12 PM new
I've both bought and sold outside of ebay, although I don't do it much. If someone wants to sell me something cheaper than it would go on ebay, in order to save the time having to scan a picture, write a description, etc. -- that's fine with me.
posted on October 27, 2000 08:54:00 PM new
UARU and others...I think that public or private, we have an equal amount of shill bidding, deadbeats, problem bidders, etc. I do think though, that 99%+ of sellers/bidders do not shill, and are not deadbeats. I've been on Ebay for years. Whether my auctions are public or private has not had any difference in the # of deadbeats. It has had an effect in only one area, the # of retractions goes up, but it's not that serious.
Those that bring up the FREEDOM issue, I'm all for the American way and free markets, but we do have laws in America that protect the majority. If we had a totally free market then Standard Oil would still be in business and we would all be paying $5.00 for a gallon of gas. All that I'm proposing is a change that's necessary as Ebay has evolved from a collector/scarce item marketplace into the more mass marketplace that it has become. Keep the e-mail addresses of bidders private.
