posted on October 29, 2000 07:52:16 PM
Some folks over at the ebaY 'Trust and Safety' board decided they didn't like ebaY telling them they can't post ID's and auction numbers over there anymore. Nope, ebaY told them to send it all to SafeHarbor, so they made a new offsite board. It's a password protected board called the ebaYDetectiveAgency.
I posted a thread over at the T&S board asking about it and it's purpose. Now I've been labeled a 'Criminal Shiller Troll Who Belongs Behind Bars'.
Seems that ebaY has a new 'vigilante squad' and they really don't like people asking questions!
posted on October 29, 2000 08:23:50 PM
Well, I'd like to see what's going on in the secret playhouse. I always like reading "True Detective" (or whatever the name of that blasted magazine was) as a child.
posted on October 29, 2000 09:28:51 PM
Hi Toyranch,
Well, the existance of this group might just be the best argument FOR hiding everyone's email that I've heard so far. I would think that the junior G-men will have a tougher time tracking bid activity if they can't see who's bidding.
This does raise some questions though. How does eBay plan to control shilling once the eBay "helpers" are put out of commission? It would seem that only eBay will have the means to do the investigating. Does this mean that eBay is going to take responsibility for policing their site and will put in the systems and people necessary do get the job done? OR could it mean that shillers will have an easier time of it?
posted on October 29, 2000 09:44:02 PM
RM: What makes you think that ebay is going to put this group out of commission?
I'm trying to catch up and was wondering if I'd missed something.
Radh and TR sitting in a tree.....
Sorry guys, that just really tickeld my funny bone. You would think that just looking at their feedbacks (TR's and Radh's I mean) that they are both 'old timers'.
Only problem is, they can't make the site work long enough for the software to do it's job!
But they do have the technology to autosweep most of that... if they can get the site to work, that is! They have it, but for some reason, they can't use it. I'll bet it has to do with too much strain on the database....
posted on October 29, 2000 11:33:35 PM
And, hanging onto Reddeer's tailcoat here, unless a shiller is really stupid, he wouldn't have all his shill accounts at the same ISP, so I don't really see what good being able to see the email addresses would do.
Isn't it much easier to go do a search on the bidder and see if he's bid on only the auctions of one seller?
posted on October 30, 2000 04:52:46 AM
Hmmmm, I've been under the impression that the entire I.D. of the bidders on any particular auction, would be hidden. Just like in a private auction. I guess I'm wrong about that.
posted on October 30, 2000 06:19:51 AM
Recently I have had 2 auctions closed by complaints from other eBayers - (much like the Posse actions on Yahoo) so to keep from not knowing who my bidders are, I just go in during the auction, and copy the bidders info down, so if some eBay "posse" decided to try to destroy my auction at least I know who my bidders are and can contact them if the auction all of the sudden disappears.
THIS IS A DEFINITE REASON TO KEEP THE bidder information public.
posted on October 30, 2000 07:13:58 AM
If the bidder info worked like it does on Yahoo!, you would see their "name" but would have no access to their e-mail address. At the end of the auction, the buyer and seller would then have access to each other's e-mail, but outsiders would still not have access, so shilling would still be difficult because you would see the bidder's "name".
posted on October 30, 2000 08:44:03 AM
That's a really great article. It brings up an interesting point about the software I linked to above. The new generation, coming out early next year, will have the ability to search through current auctions to detect shilling activity and other fraud.
posted on October 30, 2000 09:32:30 AM
OK, so I am wondering ... If I happen to need their services, and I visit their office, will I see ycnegA evitceteD yaBe written in a nice arc across the window as I look out to the street below???
toyranch: I archived all of those libelous posts they made about me last night - let me know if you'd like me to cut & paste them for you.
I went to the T&S Board several weeks ago when I head at the Soapbox that eBay was alledgedly abusing posters at the Trust & Safety (Safeharbor) RemarQ Board.
Uhm, I read back through WEEKS of postings.
I was surprised the eBay permitted many of the posts I read that are archived there, because I remember when another Shill Investigator had gotten their i.d. permanently suspended, for pulling contact info too often -- and there I read that the way to determine if you're being shilled is to put contact info of all bidders and the sellers.
Again and again and again I read that the only way to not get shilled at eBay was to not bid on ANY eBay auctions.
That suggestion was offered in MANY posts, every day.
When I finally started questioning some of this I got slammed, again and again and again.
In my sincere opinion, I believe that a group took over the T&S Board some long long time ago and their real purpose is not to expose shillers, but rather to scare everybody about eBay.
In weeks of old posts that I read, I never saw anyone advise informing the Internet Fraud Center about anything, which IMO, is more than a bit suspicious. The FBI is conducting a major probe into shilling at online auctions, and instead of postings PAGES of posts that eBay's safeharbor won't do anything - I believe that were one SERIOUS about these complaints, they'd fill out the online form over at https://www.ifccfbi.gov
I do not trust the motivations of this group of people, as you see, having been targeted on the boards by them, it is my opinion that they utilize very skilled, experience, troll & flame techniques, and I suspect that they have probably taken over and appropriated other boards at eBay, too.
Were I a newbie coming to ask a question at T&S, I would be scared stiff to ask a question there. I would be very afraid of all eBay sellers were I to read the posts that are now about a month old.
I am very concerned that eBay allowed such people to take over their boards. I am very suspicious of these people, and I genuinely wonder the true motivations behind their behavior.
I also wonder why they bashed eBay for months for suspending sellers, and if they are REALLY so concerned, why they didn't notify the FBI about what they believed to be criminal activities.
If you do not wish to notify a proper legal authority about what you believe to be CRIMINAL ACTIVITY, you can be considered to be an accessory to the crime.
I even wonder if the auctions that are alledgedly SHILLED -- I even wonder if they are real, legitimate authentic auctions, or if they are fake, sham auctions - simply listed to create firestorms on messageboards and fear & durress among newbies.
I was accused of numerous ugly things last night, and I have been attacked again and again by people I consider to be old time netizens who are skilled in board tactics and know how to deploy numerous badgering, trolling, heckling and flaming techniques.
I am very suspicious of everything I read the entire month I either lurked or posted at that board, and I am ashamed for eBay that they let any lynch mob take over any chatboard or messageboard. Vigilante groups are NOT, imo, kEwL, and I wonder what their TRUE ulterior motivations are, what's in it for them, is it just psychological battery or are they getting paid for alla this NASTINESS. I dunno.
posted on October 30, 2000 10:22:54 AM
Whooooooooooooo is this person who posted nasty libelous statements about me?? WHO is the actual true identity of this individual, and what truly is his/her motivation - what's in it for him?
""So what have we learned here: TOY you have been BANNED from the "secret board" courtesy of yours truley. DAPHNE admits she bid on her sister's items, an ebay no-no. RED and TOY admit they are business partners, and occaisonally exchange bids on each other's items. Both RED and TOY have perpetuated LIES and MYTHS about the situation on ebay--both past and current. You know as well as I do that 99% of the accusations of shill bidding on this board are and were TRUE. Ebay, I hope you ROT for allowing these PINKS to run amock with their thoughtless, sick, cover-up artist posts. You know your site isn't safe, and you know what makes it safer--but you deny it all, you DENY it until the pennies run dry. Ebay SHAME on you. As for RED and TOY--you have no purpose here but to stir up trouble, you come out of the woodwork to post this sewage for NO REASON. YOU were never discussed on this board, YOU started this hoopalah about yourself, you are perpetuating it and that's your purpose. I am an honest user, ebay has no use for me. Ebay wants more TOY's, more RED's, more SRB's, and more COW's....because it's THEY who rake in the cash and "intimidate" people from bringing thier CRIMINAL activities forward. I've never made a false accusation of shilling, so I fear no retribution. If you people were as confident as me....you wouldn't be here posting what looks to be a "last ditch effort" to save yourselves. I no longer report violations to just ebay--I report them to the FBI as well. Ebay, you already know this I imagine, because of what happened last week with a certain someone, WINK WINK. That's all for now, regards... ""
Message: 11 of 16 (In response to b.) Sent:Sun, 29 Oct 2000 20:20:13 -0800 I have never met toyranch, and we have never been in business together, are not partners, and indeed, live in entirely different regions of the USA.
Message: 12 of 16 (In response to r.)Sent:Sun, 29 Oct 2000 20:21:08 -0800 indeed.
Message: 13 of 16 (In response to b.) Sent:Sun, 29 Oct 2000 20:31:21 -0800
Why are you making such outrageous accusations?
Message: 15 of 16 (In response to b.)Sent:Sun, 29 Oct 2000 20:40:47 -0800
He seems to be mistaken and think I've done something at his private board, too.
Message: 16 of 16 (In response to b.)Sent:Sun, 29 Oct 2000 20:44:39 -0800
I have never met toyranch, I have never bid on any of his auctions; indeed, I simply got to know him recently. Why are you stating such malicious libelous statements about me?
And, as a member of the viewing audience of CNBC, I would sincerely counsel MSNBC to assign a reporter to this type of story who has some idea of what can be done on the Internet with all manner of chatrooms and messageboards.
The Internet is a MEME-Spreading device.
Do YOU want your "news" from a reporter who takes quotes from people like the above individual?
I would LOVE to learn who is actually creating the auctions being reported by these people.
Do ANY of these shill-auctions EVER get reported to the FBI?
Toyranch: when you think of the long number of discourses you and I have had where we did not agree with oneanother, and yet both try to believe that we both want what is for the ACTUAL best of the eBay User.
I almost went into that thread last night and *SCREAMED*, "Yeah, sure, righT! ~ ~ Bobby is a criminal *shiller*, and Ros is Meg Whitman's Administrative Assistant."
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Were I to be on the witness stand, under oath, at this moment I'd only be able to state that I believe what I witnessed was a Big Internet Hoax, perpetrated by person(s) who do NOT have eBay's best interests at heart.
In fact, shilling is allowed in many States, including California. In New Jeresy, for example, the owner of an item may bid on their item at auction to prevent it for being sold at too low a price.
IMHO, the owner of the item should have the same bidding rights as anyone else.
posted on October 30, 2000 02:25:45 PMIMHO, the owner of the item should have the same bidding rights as anyone else.
So long as it's not likely to deceive.
You'll agree, if the owner bid enough to expose the proxy of high bidder, then cancelled that bid, then bid just under the proxy, that should be against the rules.
posted on October 30, 2000 03:25:14 PMIn fact, shilling is allowed in many States, including California. In New Jeresy, for example, the owner of an item may bid on their item at auction to prevent it for being sold at too low a price.
Two operative words were omitted from your statement: IF DISCLOSED.
Surreptitious shilling at any RL auction house is indeed a violation of federal law.
