posted on November 1, 2000 07:26:15 AM new
gawooley, hey quit bugging Toyranch. Now I may not agree with Toy on every issue...in fact I've never agreed with Toy on any issue but has brought up many interesting points to this board (which I promptly disagree).
I didn't know the Possee has any interest in eBay too. If you are not contributing anything to the discussion, quit it.
schoonerdude, that's hilarious man. That's one of the reasons I have no interest going to the eBay Chat Rooms & start making online friends. Who knows what lurks behind the monitors. There is no need for me to go there & talk about how great, bad my sales are to these guys.
I would not even use my real id here too. Next thing you know, your auctions are all messed up & people reporting you to Safeharbor because your have bad grammer. And you know most of us here are adults by age too.
posted on November 1, 2000 08:01:37 AM new
O.K. so let me get this straight. You all seem to agree that shilling and shielding are problems on auction sites, you agree that the sites don't police their own sites well enough because they don't want to spend the money or manpower, you agree that the FBI and police don't want to bother either unless real big sums of money are involved, BUT when users of the site, try to help other users investigate and combat fraud which hurts all of us, you don't like that either! These people, under whatever names or groups they or you call them (posse, Ebay DA) are spending their time free of charge to help others. I for one appreciate that they are there if I ever need them.
Those of you who don't like them, well tough
titty to you, don't get involved, they are doing NOTHING WRONG. Anyone is free to investigate to their little hearts content.
If they are doing something wrong, they run the risk of getting caught just like the crooks do. SO there, what are you going to do about it. Investigate the investigators?
what a bunch of hyprocrites.
posted on November 1, 2000 08:11:22 AM new
Kimbo? Tough titty???
ROTFLOL...thanks for the hearty laugh this morning!
kimbo, you do make a very valid point. Toy Ranch, through all his recent efforts, has certainly set himself up to be "super-netcop" and the hypocrisy is evident.
George It's easy to "knock" a program....a lot harder to come up with a BETTER solution.
You wrote: "So there, what are you going to do about it. Investigate the investigators? what a bunch of hypocrits."
There are some things, positive things to do. Among them is creating a formal and recognized independent authority to actively police this and other online auction sites.
Then there is having a civil court created to hear disputes from litigants via computer.
Heck, did you know that if we created our own user agreement and one million people came along to sign the petition, some one would probably rename it a Declaration of Independence
Bottom line, ebay is no longer a company. It is a city being run like a company town.
As Borrillar said on another thread, "it doesn't have to be this way."
neomax
ebaY is no longer a company; it is a city being run like a company town
posted on November 1, 2000 08:26:51 AM new
Hi all: Could someone please enlighten me about the policy changes on e-mails being displayed? Did I miss it on the announcement board while weeping buckets about seller search outages> :lol
posted on November 1, 2000 05:54:37 PM new
Interesting thread.
Hello KudzuRose,
You posted:
There won't be proof "beyond a reasonable doubt".
Proof beyond a reasonable doubt is only required in a criminal case (as opposed to a civil case). Shilling and shielding are more akin to civil crimes than felonies or capital crimes where the burden of proof is on the accuser.
You also posted:
And when people want a list of ways to spot shillers, you set up a Catch 22 situation - you also teach the dishonest how to shill.
Very true. But the dishonest seem to find out how to be dishonest long before anyone detects the dishonesty and exposes the methods to the public.
Hello Neomax,
I was stunned to find out that auctionuniverse was no more. I had anticipated doing some first bid wins type auctions there for my tin crafts. And I still have the beanie baby pups from last year. Perhaps you would name a charity that I could make a donation to for them.
And please drop me a line when you have a spare moment at [email protected]
posted on November 1, 2000 06:12:57 PM new
Oh boy. I forgot people were capable of this crap. Sickening...to pillory sellers in public...with nothing but accusations. For shame. I hope all those that take pleasure in these machinations find themselves and their livlihoods similarly and very publically threatened. For shame. Get your jollies in private, for heaven's sake.
posted on November 1, 2000 07:09:50 PM newThose of you who don't like them, well tough titty to you, don't get involved, they are doing NOTHING WRONG. Anyone is free to investigate to their little hearts content.
From the posts I have read on this subject, I gather that most of these do-gooders are doing their good deeds under ids separate from their buying/selling ids. Why is that, if they are doing NOTHING WRONG? Afraid of retaliation? Why? If they are doing NOTHING WRONG, there is no need to worry.
I'll say right up front- I don't like the idea of a group of people acting in secret and without oversight, making decisions that affect the business of others.
I'll get involved if and when I please, but it won't be because somebody else tells me I should, and I'll do so under my regular id. If you don't like that, then tough titty to you, too.
posted on November 1, 2000 09:05:38 PM new
Hi, codasaurus -
When I used the phrase "beyond a reasonable doubt" I did not mean it in the strict legal sense, but in the context of what eBay can/should/would do to suspected shillers, and why. They often issue just a warning or a brief suspension. The accused deny any wrongdoing and are reinstated. (And, undoubtedly, some of them are innocent!) If it were possible in more cases to PROOVE that shilling was done, then perhaps the shillers would be permanently NARU.
And of course the dishonest figure out how to be dishonest without any help; but in most shilling cases that can be PROVEN the shillers are neglecting, out of sheer ignorance, to take the necessary steps that would provide them with a reasonable defense when they're caught.
When lists of tips on how to recognize shilling are posted on discussion boards, you IMPROVE the shilling skills of the dishonest even as you educate the honest.
I did not say that people should not be taught how to recognize shilling, but the fact remains that you set up a Catch 22 situation when you outline what to look for.
This is just a guess on my part - but I suspect that if eBay issued a detailed explanation of just what constitutes shilling and how to recognize it, the dishonest would pay more attention to it than the honest.
posted on November 1, 2000 09:52:11 PM new
Well Hey Code:
It has been a while. I forgot you do have my auction dogs ... how's the young'un?
I will contradict you though.
But that is not your point. Your point is that shill bidding is intrinsically hard to prove. It is not.
The points of proving the crime of bid shilling are set in law. A jury or a judge determines if the facts of the pattern shown is criminal. If it is, they can convict.
But there are a lot of roadblocks to government prosecuting these crimes.
This means a shoplifter in Georgia caught lightfingering a $10 steak at the local Winn-Dixie might get 60 days in jail but a shill ring operating on ebaY defrauding the public of tens of thousands of dollars is looking at most, a slap on the wrist.
Where is the justice? Where is the equity.
The folks at the detective agency ... well they're about as effective as newspaper reporters pointing out a crime. So what.
What can ebaY do? I suppose if they want they can suspend a crook's ability to sell on the site. (Of course some folks believe that the crooks just set up shop using a different identity and go back to their dastardly deeds.)
Despite ebay's millions, one thing they can't do is send someone away to the county farm for 60 days of hard labor.
My opinion is everyone is just fooling themselves unless and until there are real penalties for this type of activity. That won't change until the public authorities write laws to specifically address the issues of online people-to-people commerce. Once that happens and they actively enforce those laws in the marketplaces, it is all pretty much 'caveat emptor' ... and everyman for himself.
If you want to deter shilling and online fraud ... you've got to be able to catch most of the perps and put them in jail for a month or two or twelve... That won't happen as long as ebaY is controls the site.
neomax
ebaY is no longer a company; it is a city being run like a company town
geeeeeesH, punkin' - that's ancient history, way back in the 20th Century.
I just had a nice chat today with someone who filed an online report with the FBI's Internet Fraud Complaint Center at https://www.ifccfbi.gov and he was counselling that it had taken him and some other bidders THREE MONTHS before the actions taken on their behalf by the I.F.C.C. got them COMPLETE REFUNDS.
The g-men have come online, and both the FBI and the FTC are very serious about maintaining the integrity of the online auctions and ensuring trust & safety.
Yep! Neomax, you gotta come on uP here in POST-modern times, just two months before the true turn of the millenium.
The IFCC has a HUGE database and they track gazillions of bytes of criminal activity and they notify local and national law enforcement authorities, and 4-kEwL, hey?
posted on November 1, 2000 11:07:26 PM new
p.s. Everybody.
I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT SHILLING IS COMMON.
Yes, of course there are some criminals at eBay.
No, I do NOT believe that most, or even a lot of eBay sellers engage in the FELONIOUS ACTIVITY of shilling.
Furthermore, I actually believe that there MAY be intent and ACTUAL EVIDENCE of people colluding to create auctions that LOOK LIKE ""real"" shilling which they then YAK YAK YAK AND YACK about all over the OAI messageboards.
I do NOT believe that any great number of eBay sellers are FELONS!
LAUGH AT ME ALL YOU WANT!!
I do NOT believe that people are interested in prison time & stiff fines to raise their auctions a few bucks.
SOOOOOOOOoooooooooo.....put that in your TIN FOIL HAT and smoke it!!
lololololol
YES! LAUGH!
I know that there is LOTS of chat about SHILLING -- but I want to know HOW MUCH REAL SHILLING actually exists, as opposed to that which can be contrived to LOOK LIKE SHILLING.
posted on November 1, 2000 11:13:22 PM new
p.p.s. AND Pat, so help me, do NOT, repeatL DO NOT do an "eBay" on me and tell me that people are basically soooooooooooGoooooD that this hasn't been thought of, or indeed actually DONE.
Every case handled by a federal agent, FBI, etc. has a file. That file is public record. Why haven't there more than just the handful of high profile stories and nothing about these folks getting refunds, etc.
Those folks would also have a much higher profile with press releases and PR talking ... nay begging stories about their exploits and white hats on AW's news pages.
Oh, there've been a handful of high profile ... thousands of dollars cases ... but we know there are tons of $50 and $100 ripoffs. Do we even have any idea how many cases Lloyds pays.
Heck, maybe there is all the lawenforcement needed going on ... but where is the docket? The proof?
Reminds me of Dr. Strangelove... It makes no sense to create a doomsday device and keep it a secret.
If there is real policing going on ... real criminals being convicted and fined via plea bargain, real criminals by the dozens, making restitution ... that's a news story that is not being told. Why not?
Instead we see stories ... and yes these memes IMHO person to person journalism ... of people playing netcops and robbers. Same story same verse for last three years. Bogus bidding reports -- you know what I believe about them -- and all.
Don't tell me to get real; show me what you say is "real" ... I don't see it.
neomax
ebaY is no longer a company; it is a city being run like a company town
[ edited by neomax on Nov 1, 2000 11:37 PM ]
I think we're kind-of saying the same thing. Yes, see a crime... report it.
My only problem is that the Feds seem to be mainly collecting information -- the Fraud center reported some 6100 complaints in a news story in the last week or so.
I think I've seen most reports of criminal proscution that was adjudicated ... and that would be less than a dozen cases that made any kind of news since the first of the year.
I just don't see it as a strong commitment to cleaning it up.
Where I'm going is suggesting that there needs to be a way to hype the real effort of law enforcement. Even if the feds turn up the heat for a little while, crooks know how to lay low ... and they'll come back unless there is a more committed effort.
Maybe I'm a old-fashioned type guy but I want laws that make it feasible to lock up the pickpockets that plague the OAI. The type of effort that treats those who do the $100 fraud like those who shoplift a $100 item at the mall.
That is what will curb shilling and non-delivery fraud.
neomax ebaY is no longer a company; it is a city being run like a company town
You also brought up a thought that I've been meaning to write about. Indeed, this is the type of thing that the so-called detective agency might be able to do that would be service to the community.
See, if they were to take a sample of just one day's closed auctions with bids ... I'd say 300 from something like 10-15 categories... about 5,000 successful auctions total ... and look at them.
Then with that as a database, go through and see which ones might appear suspicious and those that are not. Analyize them fully. Go back through the suspicious ones and expand the search to classify the auctions as just suspicious and those where shilling, bid shielding, etc. is more likely. Come up with a figure that estimates the incidence of bad bidding behavior.
I'd choose a day in the recent past to survey. (past history) and really put the resources to it. Get all the folks together and have them document the database, etc.
In a matter of a week, probably what it would take if people put their minds to it, we'd all know if this is much ado about nothing or something more serious.
That will tell us more than all the horror stories and would likely be newsworthy too.
And, I might add, they wouldn't have to 'out' a single person... they'd just have to be intellectually honest in what they surmise from the data.
Radh, I just see the folks biting each others heads off, pointing fingers and not doing anything that will really solve the problem ... from either side. Focus, do somthing and yes, don't depend on ebaY to do it.
neomax ebaY is no longer a company; it is a city being run like a company town
posted on November 5, 2000 01:30:38 PM new
neomax: I hope you have your email turned on for this thread. Are you aware that there is another very active thread about today re: the eBay Detective Agency, and did you know that SAW's eBay userid is now NARU?
I remain VERY suspicious about this entire matter.
posted on November 5, 2000 04:45:07 PM new
Hi, couple of things. First, to ToyRanch. Somehow I got the impression that you were associated with the EDA. My respect for you tempered my remarks about that "organization" in the other thread. However since I see you are at odds with the EDA my opinion of their activities has dropped even more.
Second, about online fraud. No doubt there is fraud. I don't know the numbers. But I do know that a REPORT of online fraud, or fraud at eBay, does not necessarily mean that a CRIME, any crime, has occurred. Why? Because a bidder who pays and doesn't receive the item in a timely manner can file a complaint.
Specifically. I mailed a package to a customer last month and it never arrived. I notified the customer that if he would fill out an insurance claim form he would receive a prompt replacement/refund. The customer replied that unless I Paypalled him a full refund within 24 hours, he would file a formal fraud complaint. That person has taken advantage of eBay's resources to contact my customers, and also complained to Paypal and managed to create a hassle for me with them. Fortunately, eBay is smart enough to know that a package lost in the mail does not constitute fraud. I still wonder what's up with a customer who refuses to fill out an insurance claim form, deciding instead to go on a personal vendetta.
I don't buy often at eBay, but a while back I noticed what appeared to be a shill bidding ring. In fact, it was obvious. The same bidders bidding in each others auctions, and leaving each other feedback in a round robin. I notified eBay and was informed that the users had been warned. I thought sterner action should have been taken, but eBay did take (some) action.
One more thing. The comment above that certain users are exempt from eBay's rules (the suggestion that they can get complaints "fixed" ) is utterly preposterous. It is without any proof or justification, and just the kind of baseless, inflammatory rhetoric I'd expect from a vigilante group. That idea is just typical trash-talking that starts out "eBay can't/won't police its own site, so we have to." The next thing you know, folks in white robes and hats are knocking at the door. The idea that eBay is protecting certain users, therefore an agency such as the EDA is needed, is offensive to anyone who truly cares about justice.
posted on November 5, 2000 04:57:45 PM new
twinsoft: there is an active poster at the T&S Board, who claims to be the wife of an eBay employee, and she essentially stated that eBay is essentially corrupt, favors powersellers and hides illegal site activities. When I asked her how she could justify her own husband working in what was obviously to her a very corrupt business, she that her dh and his immediate boss were attempting to clean things up.
DO I KNOW IF SHE/HE IS ACTUALLY RELATED TO ANYBODY AT EBAY?
NO!
Do her concepts and words probably carry more weight with newbies and lurkers than others?
posted on November 9, 2000 01:26:11 PM new
twinsoft: Toyranch fails to tell the truth at almost every turn. He IS in fact a MEMBER of the EDA--not only that, he's now a moderator there. When he first surfaced on ebay's T & S, he stated his intentions to DESTROY the EDA and "rid" ebay of the shill detectives. Called us all "nasty vigilante netcops" and so forth. A couple days later he weasled his way onto the EDA (along with ROSS and a few other select friends), and began his bashing, legal threats, and harassment there. After much stress--I decided to BAN him. At the SAME TIME I discovered the creator of the EDA (SAW) had a couple FRAUDLULENT ID's that were SUSPENDED just days ago. Her reason? "depression caused her to rip off 17 people over the course of 2 months" It didn't add up. So I and 3 dozen of the original "shill detectives" from ebay who were interviewed for the MSNBC article LEFT the EDA. Since then, their membership has fallen from 173 to 48. Toyranch accomplished his goal--somewhat. Many users have left the site because SOMEONE on the EDA is causing trouble (pulling contact info, interfering with auctions, etc) for the people who are trying to report crime on ebay. It's a MESS for sure--but the REAL detectives ARE honest, upstanding, and longtime members of the ebay community who now prefer to do our "thing" in PRIVATE on my private board--with those we trust. The EDA, it's few scraggled "NARU" members, and toyranch and his crew of "destruction" can fade away and hopefully things will settle down on ebay and the rest of these boards. Everyone's tired of fighting unjustice.
posted on November 9, 2000 02:36:57 PM new
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Toyranch fails to tell the truth at almost every turn.
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I am known for being outspoken. I am not known for being a liar, and I am not a liar.
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He IS in fact a MEMBER of the EDA--not only that, he's now a moderator there.
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I am currently a member of that board, I was not at any time when I stated I was not. Look at the dates of the posts, and this thread. I am not now, and have never been a moderator on that board. Someone said they saw my name listed as moderator at some point. If that is true, nobody ever bothered to tell me about it, and it was only that way for a brief time. I have never moderated on that board.
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When he first surfaced on ebay's T & S, he stated his intentions to DESTROY the EDA and "rid" ebay of the shill detectives. Called us all "nasty vigilante netcops" and so forth.
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This is absolutely not true. Period.
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A couple days later he weasled his way onto the EDA (along with ROSS and a few other select friends), and began his bashing, legal threats, and harassment there.
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I was invited to that board by the adminstrator of that board and was sent the password. I offered to give the password to others who asked for it with full premission of the administrator. I made no legal threats, did no bashing, and harassed nooone. Read the ebaY Detective Agency thread at OTWA to view copies of my posts.
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After much stress--I decided to BAN him.
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Stress caused by my asking questions that were not welcomed by all members there, but were welcomed by some, including the adminstrator of the board.
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At the SAME TIME I discovered the creator of the EDA (SAW) had a couple FRAUDLULENT ID's that were SUSPENDED just days ago. Her reason? "depression caused her to rip off 17 people over the course of 2 months" It didn't add up.
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Secret Agent Woman claims she was unable to fulfill her customer's orders due to medical difficulties. She further claims she is in the process of presenting evidence of that to ebaY for reinstatement. I have no idea if that is true, but it appears to be so. I consider people to be 'innocent' until proven 'guilty'. Check the OTWA thread to see how Basestealer feels about that.
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So I and 3 dozen of the original "shill detectives" from ebay who were interviewed for the MSNBC article LEFT the EDA. Since then, their membership has fallen from 173 to 48. Toyranch accomplished his goal--somewhat. Many users have left the site because SOMEONE on the EDA is causing trouble (pulling contact info, interfering with auctions, etc) for the people who are trying to report crime on ebay.
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Someone pulled my info and that of others at EDA and was banned for doing so.
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It's a MESS for sure--but the REAL detectives ARE honest, upstanding, and longtime members of the ebay community who now prefer to do our "thing" in PRIVATE on my private board--with those we trust. The EDA, it's few scraggled "NARU" members, and toyranch and his crew of "destruction" can fade away and hopefully things will settle down on ebay and the rest of these boards. Everyone's tired of fighting unjustice.
---------------------------------------------
I'm sure everyone here is very happy that you and your band of honest, upstanding, longtime member Detectives are doing your 'thing' on your private board...
posted on November 9, 2000 05:59:38 PM newraygomez, that is a "forbidden" subject on these boards. Probably a good thing, because there is no way for Ross to come and defend himself here.
George It's easy to "knock" a program....a lot harder to come up with a BETTER solution.
