posted on November 5, 2000 02:44:52 PM
I've been thinking about this....
Since Paypal fiasco and the inception of Paydirect I have always felt they would be the last of the "free" start-ups (payplace exchangepath, I don't know who else) to begin to charge a fee. I have outlined *why* on these boards many times.
I have been using them (I have 66 transactions under my main ID)and crediting my cc, and transferring money into 3 different checking accts, sending money, etc and paying attention.
The main thing is that they are slow to transfer the money. 10 days slow. To my surprise I found that I was comforted by this. They are setting the precedent here and they have a model where they really can be profitable on the float.
Think about half.com delaying payment..
This makes big bucks.
Full disclosure - *I* want to move money for FREE.
Let's just say IF you are getting your money faster via paypal (if you are not paying, you will be shortly if you use to any degree at all) or exchangepath. Anyone want to bet that if they are delaying payment 3 days it will morph to 4 and then 5 and then 6 days?
When they go public - do you think the shareholders will be satisfied with 6?
Hah!
I think Yahoo has done it again. Outclassed 'em all. And I don't think they are going to charge. They will do it the smart thing and leave basic use free.
I'll say it again. Most always the past predicts the future. Yahoo lets you list 1000 auctions a month for free. Virtually no one uses that many. More than that, get out your (Y) wallet.
How about 15 transfers a month for free - then a charge per...??
posted on November 5, 2000 03:43:34 PM
Wrong twelvepole, RIGHT BOARD. I don't list at Yahoo. But I'm interested in hearing more about PayDirect.
Thanks for your perspective, VeryModern.
posted on November 5, 2000 03:54:40 PM
VeryModern,
I was not in anyway trying to be critical, I actually thought you had put it on the wrong board. Your postings on the Yahoo board have been extremely helpful. My mistake in thinking you didn't know where you were <grin>
posted on November 5, 2000 03:57:26 PM
Of course this is the right board. This is the board the majority of sellers read...this is where the greatest interest in online payments lies...this is where the great PayPal debates have occured.
I sell on eBay...I'm interested in Paydirect for my auctions there.
posted on November 5, 2000 03:57:48 PM
Zazzie, read my first post... some very good suggestions.
Oh well, better than some other threads I just read...
But Yahoo does have a good board also.
I also like paydirect, only one of the online services I signed up for.
Didn't know that it took 10 days for a seller to their money though, ones I have dealt with shipped right away.
Ain't Life Grand...
[ edited by twelvepole on Nov 5, 2000 04:03 PM ]
posted on November 5, 2000 04:03:44 PM
Paydirect is not limited to used only on Yahoo auctions---I have seen many EBAY auctions with Paydirect as payment option.
IMHO this thread has every right to be in the EBAY OUTLOOK as a Paypal or Billpoint thread.
posted on November 5, 2000 04:17:06 PM
Rick - no offense taken, I can see why you posted what you did. If I would have thought this through more thoroughly I would have written it differently and avoided both the confusion and the controversy.
In spite of the flaw though, what I am saying is valid, and very probably correct.
posted on November 5, 2000 04:51:55 PM
I decided to clarify, and I apologize for the poor writing in the first post.
I posted this opinion to be helpful. I know that plenty of ebay'ers are wondering about other payment services. People want to make a good decision. Anyone who has opted out of paypal and had to remove links from gobs of auctions is surely not going to want to get in a line that has them repeating this process in a month or whatever.
Soo... few ebay'ers have the experience with Yahoo that I do. Unfortunately there is a perception out there that Payme, payplace, exchangepath, etc, etc. are created equal and this is egregiously wrong. I have posted this before and outlined why I thought so, and I posted again today because I have further information. The 10 days thing. People have posted here how Paypal could not have possibly made money with their model and my point is that Paydirect can and also they are beholden to stockholders trying to get rich on auction sellers ALONE.
There have been pages and pages of posts about "bait and switch" and quite frankly, as far as a FREE service goes Pay direct is the only one in position to be planning anything but. I thought (still do) that this info would be useful to Ebay'ers who may still consider "Yahoo" is still a orphan cousin with nothing to offer. If I am correct, you will all find out eventually, but by posting today my aim was to offer information that may save someone a few bucks ans some trouble.
posted on November 5, 2000 05:19:46 PM
VeryModern: Do you have any way to determine how long the other currently free services are HOLDING the money before depositing it in the sellers' accounts?
That said, there simply are SO many liddle widdle secondary monetary transfer services, that IF YahooPayDirect *does* keep it entirely free, then I believe that your prediction is entirely on mark.
I suspect, however, that the HOLDING period will INCREASE. However, ONLY Yahoo is big enuff and reputable enuff to netizens to pull it off.
However, I will remain with Billpoint - electronic checks are free, and each time the cash was already in my account the NEXT DAY.
posted on November 5, 2000 05:41:05 PM
radh - I don't know firsthand because I never paid any attention when I used paypal. I can can only judge by what I have read around here which seems to be 5 days or so, but I have also heard different.
I had a conversation with CS at USABankshares.com while looking for my Paydirect money, and the rep told me that he was unfamiliar with Paydirect but the paypal folks routinely waited 10 days. Who knows, it's all second hand.
On your Billpoint, as I just posted Yahoo-side -
>>I also appreciate that some people don't care about fees but I am posting for those who do.
It is a trade off.
I prefer not to pay a percentage on everything I sell (shipping costs too)...>>
I like FREE and fast is irrelevant to me.
This info is for the people who want to keep as much of their profit as possible.
posted on November 5, 2000 05:55:09 PM
This info is for the people who want to keep as much of their profit as possible.
Alright! This information is for me then! I had so many friends on eBay that whined and whined about down time(I called them eBay whiners), so I told them to register with Yahoo to do something about it, and it was completly FREE. Now they are thanking me for it. I should have received royalties for it!
posted on November 5, 2000 06:10:42 PM
Today I had a gal (ebay buyer) throw a fit because I would not take paypal. I had to tell her very simply that I was selling a desirable book for 75% off the cover price, and there was only so many people I was going to be able to pay.
She understood.
She paid me DIRECTLY.
The book should not have sold so cheap, but what are you gonna do? No seller search, ebay down down down - how much of this should a small seller absorb? Sure makes sense to me that if a fee can be avoided it should.
I guess my post wasn't readable: Billpoint electronic checks are FREE and the money was in my account the very next day.
However, I believe that VeryModern is *correct* -- that Yahoo has the "Netspertise" to keep their PayDirect free, and to do this, they will make money off of a ten or even fifteen day float.
Yahoo is BIG, and it MUST have revenue sources from sources other than advertising, as Wall Street is not impressed with cyberads.
Indeed, even with banner ads on eBay, the CLICK THROUGH rate has decreased FURTHER, lol.
I guess my post is NOT making clear that I believe PayDirect WILL, as VeryModern predicts, remain FREE.
Billpoint's electronic checks are also FREE, but do not rely on a wait period to earn money offa the float.
10 days? Maybe in your case, but the transfer to my X.com account via Visa debit card took 1 business day. I really think it depends on your banking institution, a standard 10 day float wouldn't exactly be a great selling point for PayDirect.
Have you noticed that they already have a field there to breakdown future fees? Maybe they will stay free but I tend to doubt it. But then I never interpreted PayPal's TOS to mean free for BUSINESS forever either.
[ edited by bemused on Nov 5, 2000 08:18 PM ]
[ edited by bemused on Nov 5, 2000 08:19 PM ]
posted on November 5, 2000 08:56:05 PM"Have you noticed that they already have a field there to breakdown future fees?"
I've noticed that field for fees and even though it is $0.00 now it tells me the software was developed with fees in mind.
The references to fees in their TOS also suggest to me that fees are a definite probability.
33. Fees. Fees charged to your PayDirect Account are set forth in the PayDirect Fee Schedule at http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/paydirect/paydirect-03.html. You agree to pay such fees when they are due. If there are insufficient funds in your PayDirect Account to cover any fees due, you authorize Yahoo! or the Bank to charge any credit card, ATM/check card or deposit account you have used to fund your PayDirect Account in the amount of any such fee which is due. Fees are subject to change upon prior notice to you by any method permitted under this Agreement.
posted on November 6, 2000 05:39:38 AM
bemused - I have not noticed the field, I will look for it.
On the 1 day, I may be misreading, but I am taking about the lag getting money from my paydirect account into a checking acct. I have also credited back to my credit card but to tell the truth I have not checked lag time on that at all. The only reason I am aware of the lack of speed is that I am funding brand new online checking accounts with the intention of paying my bills online and they were empty and waiting for long enough that I began to question.
Regarding "selling" paypal, I am not trying to. I am trying to point out again that they are the only start up that could feasibly have any any plan other than bait and switch. For me, if it were free I would have no problem with a 10 day float. It's not like I can make up the cost of fees in interest if it transferred immediately.
Anyhow, this is just my thoughts taking into consideration everything I know. The thread is called "I think.."
I note 1/2 com and now Amazon holds your money to take advantage of the float. I think this idea is here to stay.
I note that yahoo has terms all over their site about charging in the future and we are still doing everything for free.
I note (in a thread on Yahoo-side) that outside of a trial period (like bill pay free for 3 mos) I have never seen them START charging for what originally was free.
I also note my personal experience. I paid Amazon 1-click fees last Christmas and combined with everything else it just plain too big a bite. I am not talking about professional sellers here, I think the MASSES will not be able to pay another greedy mouth long term and will go back to checks, MO's. To move the money needs to cost the same as a stamp or less and the BUYER should pay the cost.
There is simply no way in hell that any of these services deserve A PERCENTAGE of my sale and worse the POSTAGE too. Imagine writing a check and the bank takes a cut. Nice try, but sorry. KMA
posted on November 6, 2000 07:48:46 AM
One day, ten days.. How can anyone think that these payment services are making money on the float? Think about it! Credit cards are charging these services about 2%. If you pay 2% for money and then hold it for ten days, you are still paying about 73% interest. (365 days a year / 10 = 36.5 * 2% = 73%). There are much cheaper ways to get a loan than pay 73% interest and run a service that requires staff, fraud prevention, etc. The bottom line is that all of these services will have to start charging at some time. Get used to it. Unless a new one comes along every few months offering it free to get you hooked and you dont mind changing your auctions to say "we no longer take paydirect, now we only take paywiththis and next week we'll only take paywiththat" you had better expect to pay something. TANSTAAFL.
As for which payment service is the best, let me remind folks that Yahoo is famous for running a site without a single human being. Everything is automated from the annonymous NW to the canned replies that often don't match the subject of the original letter. Paydirect is no different. And since there is no one at the wheel, buyers are discovering that if they charge something back, the seller gets charged back - no questions asked. Wait until the news spreads to those wonderful folks who like to deadbeat under a dozen fake IDs. Why deadbeat when you can get it free? Paydirect's slogan should be "fast, easy and free (after you charge it back, no questions asked)." Check out the thread in the yahoo section titled Paydirect charge backs.
I hope you Paydirect users like giving stuff away.
posted on November 6, 2000 08:17:19 AM
How inconsistent.
From Yayoo PayDirect terms of service:
"9.Limits on Disputes. Please note that the funding of your PayDirect Account is a
separate transaction from any Payment you decide to make, even if you fund your
PayDirect Account at the same time that you order a Payment. [b]You may not dispute or
charge back a transaction used to fund your PayDirect Account on the basis of any
dispute you have with a Recipient over the amount owed, the quantity, quality and safety
of goods or services purchased, whether or not goods or services have been shipped,
received or performed, or any other aspect of your relationship with a Recipient."[/b]
posted on November 6, 2000 11:27:20 AM
A little history here...
There used to be American Express and Visa/Mastercard
Amex charged a hefty fee for no advantage whatsoever outside of the perception of wealth it projected. These users were sold a bill of goods. They paid for the card, they got no float, but it looked good if your date pulled one out to pay for dinner.
AMEX = Billpoint and perhaps Wells Fargo
Mastercard and Visa were for the commoner. A user also paid for these cards but received a benefit in the convenience of using them and the 21 day float, ability to postpone payment. Most people used them and they did not question.
Mastercard Visa = Paypal
Years and years and years pass. Lock on the market.
Then here comes DISCOVER CARD.
What? You mean YOU are going to PAY me to use your card?
People like me signed up WEEK ONE.
Then we went shopping, and everywhere we went we asked "will you take this Discover card?"
Next thing you know I used it for things I would NEVER charge before hand, groceries being a prime example.
This is old news now, but this is WHY there are terminals in grocery stores to pay by cc today. People started paying this way, because there was a BENEFIT to them. They did NOT pay for the privilege, to hell with that. Though the men may purchase luxury, it is the women and specifically the MOTHERS in this country decide how everyday money is spent and I got news for you - we don't throw it away so that some fat cat can get fatter. Give us value or to hell with you. Though I deplore them - ask any walmart and they'll tell you all about it.
The rest is history, and guess what...
Discover card still pays a rebate on purchases.
No bait and switch.
Instead the whole industry is taken to the future and consumers carry more debt than ever, so holy tamale, I guess it didn't do them in, did it?
Yahoo - paying cc companies 2%, or whatever it is?
Well I guess they best renegociate that, whaddya think?
I see Visa really working to being the WEB friendly card.
Let them charge Yahoo 1/2 a percent instead and make it up in volume.
There is a will, and there is a way and I am only saying that out of all of them - Yahoo is best positioned to find it and to offer what I want.
[ edited by VeryModern on Nov 6, 2000 11:46 AM ]
posted on November 6, 2000 07:02:52 PMkrsHow inconsistent.
From Yayoo PayDirect terms of service:
"9.Limits on Disputes. Please note that the funding of your PayDirect Account is a separate transaction from any Payment you decide to make, even if you fund your PayDirect Account at the same time that you order a Payment. You may not dispute or charge back a transaction used to fund your PayDirect Account on the basis of any dispute you have with a Recipient over the amount owed, the quantity, quality and safety of goods or services purchased, whether or not goods or services have been shipped, received or performed, or any other aspect of your relationship with a Recipient."
There are terms to cover most situations, which would apply is hard to say. I can't validate any stories of chargebacks but there is room in the TOS to believe the seller is liable.
"The Bank’s obligation to a Recipient is strictly limited to executing Payment instructions given by the Sender. If you are a Recipient, you assume all liability and risk in accepting a Payment from a Sender, including but not limited to any liability or risk that (i) the Sender improperly funded or directed the Payment, (ii) you may have to return the Payment to the Sender for any reason, (iii) you may later be legally required to turn the Payment over to a court or another person, or (iv) the Payment was illegally made. You agree that you will not hold either the Bank or Yahoo! responsible or liable for any losses or damages suffered by you in accepting any Payments.
I still have a PayDirect account, but then I still like PayPal too.
[ edited by uaru on Nov 6, 2000 07:04 PM ]
posted on November 6, 2000 07:04:36 PMLet them charge Yahoo 1/2 a percent instead and make it up in volume.
Let's say Yahoo does have a negotiated rate of 1/2 percent. Further, let's say that Yahoo is somehow able to earn 9%. And they hold the funds for a full 10 days.
Yahoo will earn 1/4% and be paying 1/2%. That's a loss of 1/4% on each transaction.
Although many dot com's seem to disagree, when you are losing money on each transaction, It's hard to make it up in volume.
